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could very well be! it was the first essay that i did with my degree, and i think a small element was comparing the viewpoints of mills with hobbes. mills taking the 'leave everyone to their own devices unless they endanger others' versus hobbes and the aforementioned opinion.

 

im somewhere inbetween, as i believe virtually no action is without consequence, and many people are too stupid to know what is best for them. hobbes does represent a form of dictatorship though, so its something best left well alone!

 

jonathan

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Mill was a consequentialist who believed that humanity would best be served if people act in a way that would promote the greatest happiness, and avoid acting in ways that would cause the "reverse of happiness."

 

Hobbes believed that humanity would best be served if a "benevolent despot" were to maintain order, so that base instincts of people could be controlled and directed most efficiently.

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Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.

 

BUT - if YOU don't pick the lesser of two evils, then someone else IS. And I know we all agree there are an awful lot of morons in the world - I can't abide letting them have more say in how things are run than I do.

 

Think about that. Rednecks won our presidential election. We could have used a few more enlightened vegans at the polls.

 

Our political system is not one in which silence equates to taking a stand. It is what it is, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and I for one refuse to give up the one voice I have to the idiots who vote haphazardly for whatever republican or local boy they see on the ballot.

 

-Which is why I vote. And I always take the time to make sure I know for who and what I'm voting.

 

Like veganmadre said - apathy is acceptance.

\

Actually ES&S and Diebold control the votes and they are owned by brothers who are right wing shills. Coincidentally exit polls no longer accurately predict outcomes of elections after having worked fine for 20 years. The chances that the 2004 election final tally could have been that far off from the exit polls is less than a million to one.

 

So actually if you want to effect change, you need to understand that voting will have little to nothing to do with it at this point.

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Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.

 

BUT - if YOU don't pick the lesser of two evils, then someone else IS. And I know we all agree there are an awful lot of morons in the world - I can't abide letting them have more say in how things are run than I do.

 

Think about that. Rednecks won our presidential election. We could have used a few more enlightened vegans at the polls.

 

Our political system is not one in which silence equates to taking a stand. It is what it is, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and I for one refuse to give up the one voice I have to the idiots who vote haphazardly for whatever republican or local boy they see on the ballot.

 

-Which is why I vote. And I always take the time to make sure I know for who and what I'm voting.

 

Like veganmadre said - apathy is acceptance.

\

Actually ES&S and Diebold control the votes and they are owned by brothers who are right wing shills. Coincidentally exit polls no longer accurately predict outcomes of elections after having worked fine for 20 years. The chances that the 2004 election final tally could have been that far off from the exit polls is less than a million to one.

 

So actually if you want to effect change, you need to understand that voting will have little to nothing to do with it at this point.

 

Yeah, we've all heard the conspiracy theory bit.

Maybe there's truth to it, maybe there's not. Most things looks suspicious if you try.

 

HOWEVER - this is the more important point that is going largely unnoticed I think.....there are MORE than just presidential elections in this country The president is a figurehead, some are better than others, but day to day not much is going to change regardless of who is in charge.

 

The place where your vote REALLY MATTERS is at home! What about local elections? And ballot measures! I know Oregon is a very evenly split state, I think we're known for being liberal, but that's only in the Portland area, and Eugene. (Corvallis is mixed) You go east of the Cascades and you're in all rancher redneck territory.

 

We've had some hugely important measures and issues come up, and every time there's a vote it's super close with the condensed Portland area holding one side and the entire rest of the state on the other. Oregon is in the Supreme Court right now over assisted suicide! Portland legalized gay marriage and the rest of the state got pissed and banned it! Medical marijuana is legal here! Everyone one of those was a bitter campaign and vote. Local votes matter

 

Whether or not presidential votes do...true, you're individual voice doesn't stand out as much. That doesn't justify not participating though. If you didn't vote, you don't get to complain about the outcome.

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you are being naive if you think that voting will actually mean you get a say.

 

the political system is already so corrupt that it is the party with the largest campaign fund that wins.

 

take iowa, it some republican controlled areas that they knew were going to be taken by the dems (primarily black) they seriously undersupplied voting machines.

 

voting machines - brought in by republicans, untracable votiing, totally open to fiddling.

 

i believe michael told me when he was over that in the south they were putting signs up in rep areas saying that if you had any outstanding parking tickets or fines, you would be arrested if you voted.

 

another place in the south had signs up saying that the election was the day after it actually took place.

 

by voting you are validating the system, saying that its ok to cheat, lie, bride and steal. dismissing plausable evidence for corruption as conspiracy nonsence is exactly what the politicians want you to do

 

britain is a long way ahead of the hugely corrupt american political system but its still not representative or fair.

 

there are honestly hugely more effective measures for social change. voting is not one of them.

 

jonathan

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two hilarious quotes my dad sent me:

 

"if voting actually changed anything, it would be illegal"

 

revolution books, new york

 

 

"if pro is opposite of con, then what is the opposite of progress? Congress!"

 

Men's rest-room House of Representatives,

Washington, DC

 

hehehe!

 

jonathan

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Under Republicans, man exploits man.

Under Democrats, it's just the opposite.

 

We no longer have a government of, by & for the people, but rather, of, by & for the corporations. The 2000 election was stolen by the US Supreme Court when they decided the presidential winner without counting all the votes.

 

Like Jay, I believe that the 2004 election was stolen by Diebold & ESS, shills for the Republican party & their corporate masters. There is plenty of evidence supporting this outrage (see link below) & it should be blasted on every front page of every paper in our nation & should be the leading story on every news network. But not a word in our ‘liberal’ media about this travesty to our republic! Anyone who dares to bring this topic front & center is accused of wearing a tin foil hat.

 

We need more people to get involved at a local level. Your local Election Board is a good place to start. Another very significant position is the Secretary of State. (Remember Katherine Harris & the dreadful influence she had in the 2000 Florida election.) Also, revoking corporate personhood would be a key step in setting many, many wrongs right!

 

I spent 20 years totally apathetic to politics & our political process. I’m one of millions who are partially to blame for the mockery our government has become. Not anymore. I will work within the system, outside the system, any way I can.

 

BTW, CollegeB, Kinky Firedman was on Bill Maher a few weeks ago & I thought he was pretty right on!

 

===

Powerful Government Accountability Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election findings

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1529[/b]

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Voting does make a difference. I lived in Tallahassee FL during the last series of elections in 2004, and a lot of people get really involved there. I think this is in part because Tallahassee is the state capitol, and even though it's a relatively small town, there are two major universities there. People who value education tend to be more left leaning, and more politically active, and so the ctiy as a whole voted around 70% to the left (mostly Democrat, but also a noticeable showing of Green) last election. Also, the poll workers and others who volunteer to help the system work seem to me to mainly be people who just care about the community - they aren't the aberrant henchman of an evil conspiracy or any crap like that. Also, where I lived there weren't any signs trying to trick or scare people out of voting. In fact minority voter turn outs were high there because lots of people actually get involved instead of just complaining about how the system is broken. So the reality is that your vote will count if you make it count. If you get involved, and the community is involved it will count.

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I agree with you Will!

I'm all about local, community involvement. (Although sometimes the small elections are the ones I know least about....like sheriff!?! He ran unopposed this year so I voted for him )

 

I hate that right now I'm in a position where 90%+ of my time is already committed to things that are only beneficial to me - work and school. I am looking for ways to work more in though, especially as elections approach again. I'd love to work on local campaigns, collect signatures, whatever I have to do to help around here. Of course since I'm not registered to vote in the county in which I currently reside, I don't know how that'll work....

 

Even when I am living down here though I always keep track of my local politics and still vote in my home county/district!

 

Our system isn't perfect, and it may not even be good, but it could be a LOT worse and we've got to work from within to keep things honest and improve what we can. There are good people in politics and I think there are a lot of good intentions, just somewhere along the line as power increases so does corruption. I will NOT give up my belief that that can change though!

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Our system isn't perfect, and it may not even be good, but it could be a LOT worse and we've got to work from within to keep things honest and improve what we can. There are good people in politics and I think there are a lot of good intentions, just somewhere along the line as power increases so does corruption. I will NOT give up my belief that that can change though!

 

please give an example of one european or developed country that has a more corrupt political system....

 

jonathan

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Our system isn't perfect, and it may not even be good, but it could be a LOT worse and we've got to work from within to keep things honest and improve what we can. There are good people in politics and I think there are a lot of good intentions, just somewhere along the line as power increases so does corruption. I will NOT give up my belief that that can change though!

 

please give an example of one european or developed country that has a more corrupt political system....

 

jonathan

I will confess to being fairly ignorant of European politics. The country I was primarily thinking of was Mexico. I just don't think because it's flawed and corrupt justifies walking away from it. I think it demands more involvement. I would rather dig in and do what I can than throw up my hands and write it off.

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She didn't say it was great, she just said it could be worse. To veggymeggy the glass is half full

 

Personally I think our politicians just exist on a different plane than the rest of the country. It's all about fame and all that crap. No one really cares what the people think. I guess that comes with having a "representative democracy". We vote for people to represent us but really they are only representing themselves, and just trying to get more power. And god forbid one of them have an environmentally friendly idea. all of a sudden they are a hippie and should be shunned. Compassionate people arent ruthless enough to seek power. I"m totally blabbing about nothing now. I should go.

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She didn't say it was great, she just said it could be worse. To veggymeggy the glass is half full

 

Personally I think our politicians just exist on a different plane than the rest of the country. It's all about fame and all that crap. No one really cares what the people think. I guess that comes with having a "representative democracy". We vote for people to represent us but really they are only representing themselves, and just trying to get more power. And god forbid one of them have an environmentally friendly idea. all of a sudden they are a hippie and should be shunned. Compassionate people arent ruthless enough to seek power. I"m totally blabbing about nothing now. I should go.

 

It's true, I am nothing if not an optimist. And I won't change!!!

I agree with you about compassionate people not being ruthless enough. It seems everyone who gets high up in politics is an egomaniac no matter what side they're on, and that just doesn't fit with the lifestyle we try to promote. That's why all the work has to be done at a lower level...I hope for a trickle UP effect, not vice versa!

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Veggymeggy, I don't know if you've ever read Thom Hartmann, (one of our best progressive voices, IMHO) but he states exactly the same thing -- our best opportunity to make change is at the local level.

 

I pay attention to my city council meetings & visit my city & county websites frequently -- to be aware of what is going on in my immediate community & get my voice out there on issues that are important to me.

 

It seems futile, sometimes, to start so small, but we should each remember where we started on our road to fitness & vegan-ness & where we are now.

 

Journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

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i like to go with Emma Goldman on this one

 

"If voting changed anything they would make it illegal"

 

That's a good one, hadn't heard it before.

 

The two party system is complete bullshit, I can go for hours about it, it pisses me off so much. It is entirely geared to keep anyone but mainstream politicians from becoming elected, and the Democrats and Republicans are nothing more than two sides of the same goddamn coin. Ralph Nader couldn't even get on the ballot here in Texas last year.

 

Plus, with the electoral college, Topher is literally correct: the individual vote means nothing in Presidential elections.

 

Man, it is way too late for me to start talking politics. Maybe I'll get back to it in the morning.

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Our system isn't perfect, and it may not even be good, but it could be a LOT worse and we've got to work from within to keep things honest and improve what we can. There are good people in politics and I think there are a lot of good intentions, just somewhere along the line as power increases so does corruption. I will NOT give up my belief that that can change though!

 

please give an example of one european or developed country that has a more corrupt political system....

 

jonathan

I will confess to being fairly ignorant of European politics. The country I was primarily thinking of was Mexico. I just don't think because it's flawed and corrupt justifies walking away from it. I think it demands more involvement. I would rather dig in and do what I can than throw up my hands and write it off.

 

i didnt say walking away from it was what was required. i am not a social activist, to be honest politics pisses me off really badly but i care about other things more.

social change does not start at the ballot box. it starts with grassroots resistance, demonstrations, boycotts and the like.

by voting you are condoning the system; validating it and making absolutely no difference. and that whole electoral college thing is honestly ridiculous. i do not fully understand it but as far as i am aware, each one of their votes is worth thousands of yours.

 

jonathan

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by voting you are condoning the system; validating it and making absolutely no difference.

 

Voting though is one way of changing the system. If enough people voted for radical, reformist parties who do state that they will indeed change the system, things could well change.

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i like to go with Emma Goldman on this one

 

"If voting changed anything they would make it illegal"

 

That's a good one, hadn't heard it before.

 

The two party system is complete bullshit, I can go for hours about it, it pisses me off so much. It is entirely geared to keep anyone but mainstream politicians from becoming elected, and the Democrats and Republicans are nothing more than two sides of the same goddamn coin. Ralph Nader couldn't even get on the ballot here in Texas last year.

 

Plus, with the electoral college, Topher is literally correct: the individual vote means nothing in Presidential elections.

 

Man, it is way too late for me to start talking politics. Maybe I'll get back to it in the morning.

 

I love Emma Goldman.

 

Ya Nader didnt get on the ballot here in Virginia either.

 

Veggymeggy, tell me how On the Road is when you finish it, Ive been meaning to read it!

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Voting outlawed gay marriage in oregon.

 

And took away a few unions of some friends of mine.

 

Clearly voting can do something

 

Lots of americans don't vote. Just makes my vote worth more. Yay me.

 

If anyone ever needs help filling out their ballot feel free to ask me. I'm always right. Seriously. When I vote people agree with me. Or if you really hate that plan, just skip the ones you don't want to vote on. But vote on stuff you care about. Like if you've got gay friends. Or want a street named after someone. Or something.

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Thanks for that link, Megan. I've read other reviews of Miller's book that state similar findings -- that in spite of his claim to prove the election was stolen, his 'evidence' falls short.

 

What really bothers me is that stolen or not, there are clearly serious issues with electronic voting. There have been way too many irregularities in too many precincts involving all the various systems used to trust our democracy to these machines/systems. We need to go back to paper & pen ballots or punch cards & work out the kinks in the electronic systems before depending on them, the first kink being that these companies are owned by republican supporting corporations & their source code is not open.

 

Americans also need to get over the idea that we will know the outcome of any election the evening of election day. Personally, I think we should have Election Week & plan for another week or 2 to count & verify ALL votes.

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I agree Crispy. Here in Oregon we have mail in voting. It's not a flawless system, but I think it's superior to electronic voting. For starters, it is pen and paper so there's a way to verify the votes. Also since you can mail your ballots in well in advance, there is plenty of time to count them. I think it is slightly more open to fraud than a pen/paper walk up ballot box, in that when you're in a booth you're filling out your ballot of your own accord, whereas mail in voting is not necessarily private, nor regulated as the ballot is filled out.

Nonetheless, it is better than the machines!

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if anyone reads this, im not looking to start a battle.

 

but I hate politics and voting. pssht to that.

I have to deal with politics (legislation, politicians and such) in my job, mostly because politics work to smooth the exploitation of animals animals and I try to stop that from happening.

 

I agree that politics and voting aren't the answer. People think it is different on the local level, but community officials are just as corrupt as the people on Capitol Hill.

 

The system is messed up. In 2000, I organized a Green Coalition on my university campus and actually pulled a large number of people out to vote for Nader. I thought the election year would be a good tool to get people interested in important issues. I knew Nader wouldn't win, but that wasn't the point. The point was to get people interested in making change beyond the ballot box.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Nader has a lot of integrity, but the focus on reforming the electoral system misses the point. I always made a point that I had organized the Campus Green Coalition based on direct action, but I found that few people where interested in doing things directly. That's the problem with voting and politics. (Many of the people that joined the coalition actually didn't take it seriously and only supported it because it was a Republican state. At an election party they were all pulling for Gore to win.)

 

I find that the party system of organizing is corrupt, and it diverts all energy to the electoral process. And if the Green Party was corrupt, you can bet the others are also corrupt. This was more evident in the "anybody but Bush" election. Everyone was directed away from good direct action work to campaigning for a "lesser evil."

 

People become disempowered. They vote for people to think and act for them. The whole system is a form of hegemonic control, where by people buy into there own oppression. People complain about the election being stolen, but every election usurps our ability to make real change in the world.

 

Goldman was right. Don't buy into the system.

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