Former Vegan Friend

Yesterday while I was working a girl I used to live with came into the store. I hadn't seen her since my freshman year (3 years ago) when we lived together. She was a real cool girl, and I remembered that she was vegan, so I was totally happy to run into her.

Then we got to talking, and she told me she wasn't vegan anymore. She said she just couldn't do it anymore, and she had to have cheese! How lame is that!? She justified it by saying she's still vegetarian, but come on! She was one of the first vegans I ever met. I was totally bummed......

just 'cause you think it's right for you, doesn't make it right for her.

So sorry to hear you were bummed!

I have never understood the cheese/dairy issue. I hate the taste of cheese and don't like ice cream (not even soy). It's such a heavy food, ick!

That's too bad, but think of it this way. There is still a vegan mindset inside of her somewhere. Given the right circumstances it will find it's way to the surface again. Could be that seeing you will start that process rolling.

just 'cause you think it's right for you, doesn't make it right for her.

But its still wrong. Just because most people making wrong decisions and say that this is right for them doesnt make the decisions right. Thats wrong understanding of tolerance.

just 'cause you think it's right for you, doesn't make it right for her.

I don't think there is a whole lot of 'grey area' in ethical issues....but even if there is, my point is more that I was disappointed because I was hoping running into her would mean I'd have another vegan friend in town (the only vegans I know are Topher and Rob). I also remember having talks with her about veganism/AR etc, and it is bothersome that someone who knows what goes on in this world recanted her veganism on something so trivial as wanting cheese.

just 'cause you think it's right for you, doesn't make it right for her.

What kind of b#$# s^%$ is that Jza? Veganism isnt "right" for some people, and "wrong" for others. Unless you have a medical condition that makes eating non-vegan essential for your survival (and I have yet to hear about such a condition), veganism is what we all MUST strive for. It is Truth, with a capital T. It is the only acceptable diet if we give a damn about animals and the planet, AND other people starving to death half way across the world.

This isnt to say that I am always perfect. I have had my occasional slips to the dark side even after the day I offocially committed to veganism, in the form of having a piece of non-vegan cake. I dont justify my conduct though as "maybe veganism isnt right for me because I cannot live without cake." That's b^%$ s&^%. I justify it as "I suck. My tastebuds or addiction to cake is NOT more important than the implications for the animals, and I must try harder next time I am confronted with my non-vegan weakness."

So VeggyMeggy, ya, I totally agree with you. Your friend who "just couldnt live without cheese" is pathetic, just as pathetic as I was when I shoved a non-vegan piece of cake in my mouth knowing full well it was NO WHERE near vegan.

And I dont expect nor do I want to hear such b$# s&^% as "Oh, maybe veganism isnt right for you" or " you are vegan in every other way 99.9% of the time so dont be too hard on yourself, it was just one peice of cake what's the harm." That is all b%$ s&^% and it sickens me when I hear other vegans say s%$^ like that to other vegans, including to me.

Cheese has very addictive properties. It was the last non-vegan thing in my life & I admit, I still have cravings for it. It is also an all-American comfort food, so there are lots of issues going on with her regarding cheese.

Google "Is cheese addictive?" for more articles than the one listed below.

http://www.healthdiaries.com/blogs/vegetarianblues/archives/2004/09/casein_and_cheese_more_addictive_than_chocolate.html

snip...

Why is cheese so addicting? Certainly not because of its aroma, which is perilously close to old socks. The first hint of a biochemical explanation came in 1981, when scientists at Wellcome Research Laboratories in Research Triangle Park, N.C., found a substance in dairy products that looked remarkably like morphine. After a complex series of tests, they determined that, surprisingly enough, it actually was morphine. By a fluke of nature, the enzymes that produce opiates are not confined to poppies -- they also hide inside cows' livers. So traces of morphine can pass into the animal's bloodstream and end up in milk and milk products. The amounts are far too small to explain cheese's appeal. But nonetheless, the discovery led scientists on their search for opiate compounds in dairy products.

And they found them. Opiates hide inside casein, the main dairy protein. As casein molecules are digested, they break apart to release tiny opiate molecules, called casomorphins. One of these compounds has about one-tenth the opiate strength of morphine. The especially addicting power of cheese may be due to the fact that the process of cheese-making removes water,lactose and whey proteins so that casein is concentrated. Scientists are now trying to tease out whether these opiate molecules work strictly within the digestive tract or whether they pass into the bloodstream and reach the brain directly.

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Will you see this friend again? If so, perhaps you could start your own anti-cheese campaign with her. You can start by showing her any evidence you find that cheese is addictive.

If I recall, you posted a great macaroni & cheeze recipe. Next time you make it, scoop a small serving into a little plastic bowl & give it to her, along with the recipe. Or invite her over for vegan grilled cheeze sandwiches or one of Vegan Madre's great vegan pizzas. Show her that there are vegan alternatives to cheese. Filling that 'comfort food' void is half the battle, I think.

You guys are gonna hate me for this but I personaly think that everybody has a right to make their own choices wherever I/we agree with it or not! yes it's dissapointing and I wish cruelty to all living things would end but I'm not going to judge someone else for not being vegan. I'm sorry you got bummed out Veggymeggy and I hope something else made you happy that day! It would be like me in my Fruitarian days judging everybody that didn't eat raw fruits. My workout buddy is a fullblown meateater and he's amazed at what I can do as a Vegan but he's not gonna go with out his meat for anybody! but that's his choice.

just 'cause you think it's right for you, doesn't make it right for her.

 

What kind of b#$# s^%$ is that Jza? Veganism isnt "right" for some people, and "wrong" for others.

well comsidering it is considered ethical and right to murder/kill animals for food etc by the majority of society.

i'm just not quite arrogant enough to believe i should be pushing my own morals and beliefs on other people.

I agree with Jza. I think that murdering should be legal, and theft and rape. I hate it how the government pushes its morals onto us all! It's outrageous! I should be able to rape and murder whoever I want.

I agree with Jza. I think that murdering should be legal, and theft and rape. I hate it how the government pushes its morals onto us all! It's outrageous!

yes...great comparision.

I agree with Jza. I think that murdering should be legal, and theft and rape. I hate it how the government pushes its morals onto us all! It's outrageous!

"outrageous, i say"!

Jza, what's right for one person isn't necessarily right for another. Rape just FEELS right to me, ya feel me playa?

You guys are gonna hate me for this but I personaly think that everybody has a right to make their own choices wherever I/we agree with it or not! yes it's dissapointing and I wish cruelty to all living things would end but I'm not going to judge someone else for not being vegan.

This thread is going to take on an all too familiar theme.

Big, would you judge somebody for murdering another adult? A child? What about raping a female? Would you judge somebody for that? What about kidnapping a child from his mother? Is that "judgment" worthy?

That is what happens in the dairy industry. The victims of murder are not other people, they are the dairy cows that are too exhausted to produce more dairy and therefore shipped off to slaughter to be somebody's ast food hamburger. The child victims of murder in the dairy industry are the veal calves. The rape victims are the cows that are continously impregnated artificially so as to keep producing milk. The kidnap victims are the calves that are separated from their mothers within hours of being born, and the mothers too suffer as much as the calves that LONG for their mothers milk, and their mothers warmth and presence.

So what is the difference then? Why judge in the former context but withhold judgment in the later context? Because in the second context the victims are bovine instead of homo -sapien, so their suffering, murders, abductions, tortures and rapes are somehow less deserving of our moral outrage and "judgmental instincts"? I dont THINK so.

Of course, the best way to convince people is to explain to them in a loving, kind, and non-judgmental way -- I get that. But I dont buy this b^%%$ s*&^ about how veganism is a choice and everybody is entitled to make it for themselves. Veganism is no less of a political issue or freedom of choice issue than is the murder and rape of children.

I dont see the moral imperative of fruitarianism in the same way as I see the moral imperative of veganism. We are talking here about morality and ethics of veganism, not the health perspective of veganism. So no, I dont think you can judge a non-fruitarian in the same way you can judge a non-vegan. By all means, if there is a strong moral argument in favour of fruitariamism such that it can fit into the example I above, enlighten me.

Crispy Q, ya i have heard about the addictive properties of cheese. I have always read about the addictive properties of sugar. I will get personal here and reveal to you all that apparently my inability to resist choc cake with blue icing has something to do with psychological reasons (childhood memories). Do I allow myself to ever think it is okay to have non-vegan cake with blue icing because my need for it has emotional childhood issues behind it? No. Never. Unless it is a matter of eat or die, non-vegan options should not be considered options, as Jonathan I think put it once. That is the only standard I will ever measure myself against ever. And when I fall short, I dont console myself in the fact that there are psychological reasons for my "addiction" for blue icing, or that sugar is scientifically proven to have addictive properties. I say ppppsssssshhhttt to all that.

How arrogant of me to push my "its wong to rape women", "its wrong to take innocent lives", "its wrong to molest children", etc etc, beliefs onto other people, I know. How dare I do so. Who do I think I am? People should just do what "feels" right for them.

PPUUUUULLLLLLEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEE!!!!!!

yes,but your particular ideals/actions on this have been counter acted by societies opinions and more importantly legislation.

eating animals is perfectly normal and legal.

i'd never do it again myself, but i'm not quite silly enough to think i know what's best for everyone else.

Thanks Crispy Q, I have read about the addictive properties of cheese before, but I thought it was something that loses its effect once it's out of your system? Regardless, I understand a little bit; if I were to be not vegan again, cheese would probably be the first thing I'd eat.

I don't think I'm judging her for it? I still would like to see her, I'm not cutting her off as a friend, I, really, am just disappointed. When she moved into the house a lot of adjustments were made to accomodate her vegan diet (mostly by me, as I was in charge of the house budget, did the shopping, approved the sysco orders, and was liason to the cook) - so everyone knew she was vegan. I don't think it sets a good example that she was so outspokenly vegan and now she's not.

I agree Bigbwii, that 'pushing' one's values on another is ineffectual at best, though to most meat eaters there is a fine to non-existant line between 'pushing' and 'educating' - but she'd already declared that she had the same vegan values. I just don't understand how one can change that.

I know what's best for the animals, and that's not being killed right? Eating animals is the norm and it is legal. But that's nothing to do with morality.

I know what's best for the animals, and that's right? Eating animals is the norm and it is legal. But that's nothing to do with morality.

what's best for plants is also "not being killed" right?

But that's nothing to do with morality

yes,but your particular ideals/actions on this have been counter acted by societies opinions and more importantly legislation.

 

eating animals is perfectly normal and legal.

i'd never do it again myself, but i'm not quite silly enough to think i know what's best for everyone else.

So according to that ridiculous logic, what is moral is determined by what is and what is not legal? Once upon a time, in some countries, it was legal to rape your wife. In some countries, child labour was accepted as perfectly normal by society at large. As was black slavery. Legal and accepted as perfectly normal by the ruling classes. By those in power.

Does that mean that people vocally and vehemently opposed to these abhorrent practices were silly or arrogant to push their anti-status quo views on the masses and on the governments?

I hate to break this to you, Jza, but socially progressive/reform movements begin with people that are, by your standards, "silly" and "arrogant".

So thank God for "silly and arrogant" people that do the above kind of work I say. Where would society be now without them?

I am now bowing out of this thread as I am finding it is getting increasingly disheartening.

I know what's best for the animals, and that's right? Eating animals is the norm and it is legal. But that's nothing to do with morality.

what's best for plants is also "not being killed" right?

 

 

But that's nothing to do with morality

I don't feel bad about eating plants because I don't see evidence that they are aware of their existance, or feel anything. They're only 'alive' in as much as they grow and reproduce. I don't feel bad for stepping on grass. I dunno why you think that morals aren't universal. If I think something is wrong, it's wrong for everyone. Like I insinuated before, if I think murder is wrong, then it's wrong for everyone, not just for me. And that's not unreasonable. Murdering is unreasonable, as is killing animals.

Hi Veggymeggy, yeah it's a tough dissapointment and I totally understand where your coming from, when I was fruitarian it used to really hurt me when I found out that a "leading raw food guru" was caught eating cooked food! nothing surprises me anymore!

the crux of your argument lies in whether other sentient beings having an equal footing to humans.

i believe that i shouldn't eat them or their "produce"

i don't feel the need to enforce my personal beliefs on other people.

I know what's best for the animals, and that's right? Eating animals is the norm and it is legal. But that's nothing to do with morality.

what's best for plants is also "not being killed" right?

 

 

But that's nothing to do with morality

Oh for God's sake are we seriosuly going to debate the "what about plants" thing? I would expect this kind of thing from a meat eater, but I am getting it from a vegan??

We have to eat SOMETHING in order to survive. We have two choices: we can eat from the animal kingdom, and we can eat from the plant kingdom. It seems to me to beyond question that plants are less sentient, if at all, than animalss, and that the lesser of 'harm" of the two is to eat plants, and not animals.

Therein lies the morality Jza.

And, lastly, the crux of YOUR argument seems to be the theory of "moral relativity" - which is the biggest load of theoretical crap I have ever heard. And I am not wasting another moment of energy dignifying "moral relativity" theory with a response.

Jonathan once warned me that being too emotionally involved with things will one day burn me out. I am now beginnning to understand what he was talking about.

yes,but your particular ideals/actions on this have been counter acted by societies opinions and more importantly legislation.

 

eating animals is perfectly normal and legal.

i'd never do it again myself, but i'm not quite silly enough to think i know what's best for everyone else.

 

So according to that ridiculous logic, what is moral is determined by what is and what is not legal? Once upon a time, in some countries, it was legal to rape your wife. In some countries, child labour was accepted as perfectly normal by society at large. As was black slavery. Legal and accepted as perfectly normal by the ruling classes. By those in power.

 

Does that mean that people vocally and vehemently opposed to these abhorrent practices were silly or arrogant to push their anti-status quo views on the masses and on the governments?

 

I hate to break this to you, Jza, but socially progressive movements begin with people that are, by your standards Jza, "silly" and "arrogant".

 

I am now bowing out of this thread as I am finding it is getting increasingly disheartening.

you'll notice i said something about it being legal and moral. that would perhaps suggest two different things...no?

what is silly is having a boo because someone doesn't subscribe to your belief system.