Eat.

[Fallen_Horse]

Hey Troy

I don't really post much around here but I wanted to ask what flavor of Gemma you use from True Protein?

Just throwing my input in...I use Vanilla flavored with Stevia. It works great with soymilk, and it's versatile for lots of recipes (pudding, bars, etc.) The majority of people say that the high end flavors are the best though...

[Fallen_Horse]

So I did a cost analysis of everything I consume. These are max figures, meaning if I never miss a meal and based off of a 3300 total calories per day.

Caloric items (protein, veggies, fruits, grains, fat) = $165/week.
Supplements (vitamins, minerals, etc.) = $12/week.
Total = $177/week

Most items you can find on the net, not sure about the UK but you could inquire about shipping overseas, but may be cost prohibitive.

You know how much that might come out to be (the caloric items) if you didn't go for organic, but just bought regular? Maybe 20% cheaper? 30%?

[Troy]

You know how much that might come out to be (the caloric items) if you didn't go for organic, but just bought regular? Maybe 20% cheaper? 30%?

I've been making quite a few adjustments to my diet lately, although I've been eating less, I've been planning something more sustainable and cost effective.. I'll disclose details in the next coming weeks. My diet is moving in a healthier direction...

[Troy]

In my attempts to cut out the Ezekiel Cereal and Gemma Protein Powder, my body seems to be shrinking away. I tried to come up with a plan that incorporated strictly seeds, nuts, grains, veggies and fruits, raw and cooked, with no preprocessed products. The problem lies with the bulk of the food, I just can't take it all in. I dropped my overall protein down by about 20-25% which seems to be another cause of my weight loss. I tried replacing my gemma with spirulina, and I could hack it at first but after a couple weeks I start gagging on it. Adding to the fact that spirulina is not very travel friendly. You can't store it in water otherwise I think some type of sulfur is released causing a rotten egg smell. I mix it at work which is a very humid environment and it clumps up easily, making it almost impossible to get a clump free water/spirulina mixture. It requires a blender and I'm not sure my coworkers would like that too much. I even looked into getting a Krups blender for work so I wouldn't make much noise. At least I can mix the gemma in my green smooths...

...oh wait...My Blendtec took a dump on me a couple days ago too. I have to call tech support to see if I have to send it back in or what. I only have 1200 cycles on it...

Anyways, Ezekiel is back on my food list and 16 pounds of gemma is heading back into my cupboards. Learned some more about the vegan diet through trial and error. Added a couple staple foods along the way... sunflower seeds for vitamin E, pumpkin seeds, and stickin it out with a small serving of spirulina a day. (1 oz) Hopefully back on track here in July. 14 pounds lost quite quickly... I don't how fast I can put that back on...

[veggieprincess]

In my attempts to cut out the Ezekiel Cereal and Gemma Protein Powder, my body seems to be shrinking away. I tried to come up with a plan that incorporated strictly seeds, nuts, grains, veggies and fruits, raw and cooked, with no preprocessed products. The problem lies with the bulk of the food, I just can't take it all in. I dropped my overall protein down by about 20-25% which seems to be another cause of my weight loss. Anyways, Ezekiel is back on my food list and 16 pounds of gemma is heading back into my cupboards. Learned some more about the vegan diet through trial and error. Added a couple staple foods along the way... sunflower seeds for vitamin E, pumpkin seeds, and stickin it out with a small serving of spirulina a day. (1 oz) Hopefully back on track here in July. 14 pounds lost quite quickly... I don't how fast I can put that back on...

Honestly.... I really hate to say this, but I was afraid this was going to happen to you when I read about your new plan a month ago.

The same way that I KNEW you would be SUCCESSFUL when you outlined your plan at the beginning of the year (or was it the end of 07?) when you first started posting here. When I saw what you were doing about 6 months ago.. it was one of the best laid out plans I had seen and I was excited for you, and was genuinely worried when you told me you were going to try to do all whole foods and no supps... but I always try to remain open-minded because I like to be proved wrong.

This is one of the biggest problems that I face when I get emails or try to help people with their diet that tell me that they want muscle but they don't want to do ANY supplementation or want to do it all Raw or with just whole foods. There are very few people who can do it that way. I'm not saying it can't be done... just very few people can.

Its great to experiment with new stuff and try things a different way... but your original sources of inspiration, such as Body For Life, etc... knew what they were doing as well as all of the athletes/bodybuilders that have gone before us. As Vegan athletes, we have alot to learn from the bodybuilders and knowledgeable trainers that have gone before us. I hope you'll continue to experiement as I think you are an information seeker and research junkie like me... but there's also alot of merit to the methods that have been around for many many decades too.

It'll be nice to see ya get back on track with your muscle building goals (not that you ever got that far off track) Take a look at Nitrofusion as well for your supps list. Its a really great product.

M

[Fallen_Horse]

These are questions for Troy and VeggiePrincess (and anyone else who has experience)

I already take about 20-30g of protein a day from Gemma, so I am covered there.
1. Is a multi necessary if Fitday shows I am getting 150%+ of all my daily vitamins?
2. What other supplements are 'must have' for someone trying to get big?

[Troy]

Honestly.... I really hate to say this, but I was afraid this was going to happen to you when I read about your new plan a month ago.

The same way that I KNEW you would be SUCCESSFUL when you outlined your plan at the beginning of the year (or was it the end of 07?) when you first started posting here. When I saw what you were doing about 6 months ago.. it was one of the best laid out plans I had seen and I was excited for you, and was genuinely worried when you told me you were going to try to do all whole foods and no supps... but I always try to remain open-minded because I like to be proved wrong.

This is one of the biggest problems that I face when I get emails or try to help people with their diet that tell me that they want muscle but they don't want to do ANY supplementation or want to do it all Raw or with just whole foods. There are very few people who can do it that way. I'm not saying it can't be done... just very few people can.

Its great to experiment with new stuff and try things a different way... but your original sources of inspiration, such as Body For Life, etc... knew what they were doing as well as all of the athletes/bodybuilders that have gone before us. As Vegan athletes, we have alot to learn from the bodybuilders and knowledgeable trainers that have gone before us. I hope you'll continue to experiement as I think you are an information seeker and research junkie like me... but there's also alot of merit to the methods that have been around for many many decades too.

It'll be nice to see ya get back on track with your muscle building goals (not that you ever got that far off track) Take a look at Nitrofusion as well for your supps list. Its a really great product.

M

Yeah good call VP... I had to try it to know though. I did well with my original plan and tried to refine it without the "refinements"... Theres only so much nutrient dense food I can put down before I reach "food bulk max" in which I have to turn to other less bulky products for macro nutrients. I am now wiser with my body for attempting it and discovering what my limits are. You're post is very right, some people can thrive and make gains on all raw or non-processed foods or no supps but I think they are the few. I'm finding what works for me and applying as many of the best foods I can and filling in the holes from there. Thanks for reading

I already take about 20-30g of protein a day from Gemma, so I am covered there.
1. Is a multi necessary if Fitday shows I am getting 150%+ of all my daily vitamins?
2. What other supplements are 'must have' for someone trying to get big?

Taking 20-30g of gemma a day may not necessarily mean that you are "covered". Your overall daily intake of protein and the percentage of what that protein takes up between carbs and fat is more crucial to your gains.

IMO, multis are a safe guard. Try to get as many micronutrients as you can from food then add a multi. Unless you are a scientist who can analyze all the food that comes across your table you can never be sure of the micronutrient values of everything. The human body doesn't have severe or dramatic responses that we can "feel" from a micronutrient deficiency, however, over time a deficiency may build to a severe problem in which case you will feel. Some people swear that they get everything they need from the food they eat and they feel fantastic. Those people may do fine for 10, 20, 30 years and then develop something because they went so long without a certain micronutrient... of course theres always the case of someone who doesn't develop a problem, just like the alcoholic smoker who lives to be 100, theres always someone who beats the odds. I'm not a big better so I'd rather play the game of life with the odds in my favor... the odds favored by scientific studies rather than simply going off of a feeling or "ormus" or whatever. Why not do things right, feel great and have a piece of mind that you are getting what your body needs? Choose a whole food multi like Rainbow Light. DV recommended it to me and I have yet to find a better multi.

So far I have changed my approach slightly to supplements. I'm giving my body what it lacks with a plant based diet but not necessarily what it can "possibly" use to build bigger muscles, I'm going to rely on my training and my calories for that. During this next phase I will be taking:

Multi
Calcium mineral multi
Extra D
DHA/EPA
Glucosamine/MSM

small amounts of:

Acetyl-L-Carnitine
Creatine
Taurine
L-Carnosine
coenzyme Q10

I don't consider gemma a supplement as its a macronutrient, a processed macronutrient yet still a food based macro.

[cubby2112]

Sorry to hear the whole food approach didn't work for you. I am actually beginning to experience better gains with it, but I am one of those people who has a slow metabolism and can still pack food down like nobody's business, so I am perfectly suited to it. Glad to see you are getting back on track. You might want to give True Protein's rice protein a shot since you seem to have trouble getting enough calories. It doesn't fluff up like gemma and is therefore less filling. You might like combining some with the gemma to tame it down a bit.

*edit*
I guess I can't really say I am 100% on the whole foods bandwagon, though. I am still taking a scoop of gemma after workouts until that is gone, so that might be part of what is allowing me to thrive on what are otherwise whole foods.

[Fallen_Horse]

I hear a lot of bodybuilders complain about how tough it is to geat 3500 or 4000 cals of clean food, but to me that seems so easy! Being on a 2200cal diet, I can only dream of letting myself eat that much!

[cubby2112]

...oh wait...My Blendtec took a dump on me a couple days ago too. I have to call tech support to see if I have to send it back in or what. I only have 1200 cycles on it...

I meant to ask this when I was posting my reply earlier, but I forgot. Are you getting a "No zero crossing" error and then a "Watchdog Timeout" error? Mine started doing that at about 1300 cycles (I actually have closer to 2000, but some cycles are always lost when I shut it down and move it). I have to fiddle with the power, shutting it off, unplugging it, etc., until it finally decides to blend. When it does blend, it usually goes full blast and I cannot use any of the lower blade speed settings.

[Troy]

I meant to ask this when I was posting my reply earlier, but I forgot. Are you getting a "No zero crossing" error and then a "Watchdog Timeout" error? Mine started doing that at about 1300 cycles (I actually have closer to 2000, but some cycles are always lost when I shut it down and move it). I have to fiddle with the power, shutting it off, unplugging it, etc., until it finally decides to blend. When it does blend, it usually goes full blast and I cannot use any of the lower blade speed settings.

The last time I used it to make a green smoothie, the motor stopped during a cycle. I attempted to restart a cycle and the motor would start up but then shut down after 1-2 seconds. The lcd did not display OVERTEMP or OVERLOAD or any other error message. The lcd display and power light would also flicker if I tried to start a cycle. I shut off the unit with the power switch in the back, unplugged it and left it off over night, then I tried to turn it back on the next day but it would not turn on. I tried different outlets in different rooms that were working with other electrical appliances and the unit did not turn back on. The blades on the jar were spinning freely when I inspected them. I'm sending it back today for repair or replacement. Since its such a vital aspect to my diet I ordered an additional blender, this time a 15 amp BlendTec Q-Series Smoother. Ordered today, be here tomorrow night, so virtually no loss on smoothies... and then I will have a spare if something tragic like this happens again. The Q-Series is pricey but since I blend so early in the morning I'm sure my neighbors will be happier.

[Troy]

Back in action, started over after the weight loss and am getting things rolling again. Been steady pounding the food in since last week Monday.

Updated the first post with the newly revised and highly detailed diet.

[Fallen_Horse]

Troy, I noticed you take cal + D. I'm wondering if you had heard of Deva's cal+D supplement, and what you think about it?

http://www.devanutrition.com/calciumplus.html

[Troy]

Looks like a solid supplement. My calcium supp has D in it too, just not enough to balance out my nutrients... heres how the NOW foods Cal complex and Solo D that I take stack up...

[Ecology]

Kale and quinoa actually compliment each other awesomely.

I make pilaf out of it.

In this recipe I use kale instead of celery...
http://www.elise.com/recipes/archives/001825rice_pilaf.php