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 Post subject: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:35 am 
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Elephant
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I just realized I don't have a training log here! I figure it's a good time to post one; perhaps I can get some suggestions on what I might be hitting too hard or not hard enough? Rock on!

DAY 1
3x8 Wide-grip pullups
3x10 Bent-over Rows
3x8 Shoulder-ups
3x6 Deadlift
3x8 Chin-ups
3x10 Shrugs

DAY 2
3x10 DB Bench
3x10 Military Press
3x12 Dips
2x12 Triangle Pushups
3x10 Close-grip Bench
3x10 Bicep Curls

DAY 3
3x10 Squats
3x12 Back Extensions
3x12 Seated Calf Raises
3x10 Lunges
3x10 Stiff-leg Deadlift
2x20 Partner Ab Work

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Last edited by Fallen_Horse on Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Horse, fallen, but training...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:29 pm 
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Ok, a few modifications, anybody have any thoughts?

DAY 1
3x8 Wide-grip pullups
3x10 Bent-over Rows
3x8 Chin-ups
3x10 Shrugs
3x8 Deadlift
3x10 Bicep Curls
3x10 Back Extensions

DAY 2
3x10 DB Bench
3x10 Military Press
3x12 Dips
3x8 Shoulder-ups
3x10 Close-grip Bench
3x10 Lat Pulldowns
2x12 Triangle Pushups

DAY 3
3x10 Squats
3x10 Seated Calf Raises
3x10 Hamstring Machine
3x10 Lunges
3x10 Leg Raises
3x10 Ab Ball
1x30 Medicine Ball
3x10 Stiff-leg Deadlift

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Last edited by Fallen_Horse on Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Day 1: I don't think you need to do three vertical pulling exercises in the same session. Pick one and drop the Lat Pulldowns.

Day 2: You have too many exercises, 5 consecutive, that work the triceps. Do bicep curls on Day 1 back day. What are Shoulder-ups? Handstand push-ups?

Day 3: Do calf raises after you squat, lunge, and SLDL if you feel the need to do a calve isolation exercise.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:38 pm 
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Sorry if I was unclear. That isn't necessarily the order of the exercises I do, just a list of the exercises. I have made some changes, and it's now in order of what exercises I do in what order.

Shoulder-ups are pullups with a close parallel grip. The best pic is below, although without the annoying bar in the way...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/2002/vbarpullup1.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:07 pm 
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I call them hammer grip pull/chin-ups

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:21 am 
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As for a critique of your routine, I can say that since my trainer has pushed me to to more high reps I have seen improved muscle growth. I used to swear by the low rep/high weight school of thought but shaking things up a bit can cause growth.

Even when I do heavy weight, I rarely do only three sets. Four sets is my norm. Occasionally, my trainer will throw in a set that is 100 reps - however long it take you to get there. Generally, this happens on my leg day, ending with 100 leg extension and/or leg curl reps. It's definitely working for some quad separation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:04 am 
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Wow that is intense. I figure if I add another set I will have to remove some of the exercises though, because my workouts are long enough!

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 Post subject: Re: The Horse, fallen, but training...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:54 am 
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Fallen_Horse wrote:
Ok, a few modifications, anybody have any thoughts?

DAY 1
3x8 Wide-grip pullups
3x10 Bent-over Rows
3x8 Chin-ups
3x10 Shrugs
3x8 Deadlift
3x10 Bicep Curls
3x10 Back Extensions


I don't think that this is necessarily overloaded (I have some pretty marathon upper back days), but just to ask, any particular reason for lots of pulling in the vertical plane and considerably less horizontally (upper back work, not consdering deadlifts)? I've quickly become a fan of balancing pulling in the two main planes of movement, so I might suggest that, unless you have a real need to focus more on vertical pulling, maybe adding in something else to work some extra rowing movements, even if it's just some seated cable rows or something. Otherwise, it all looks decent - I'm a fan of more lower back work (and doing it on a separate day), but if this works, then that's good enough.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
DAY 2
3x10 DB Bench
3x10 Military Press
3x12 Dips
3x8 Shoulder-ups
3x10 Close-grip Bench
3x10 Lat Pulldowns
2x12 Triangle Pushups


I don't know...I'm still amazed at how many people do chest and shoulder work on the same day, when I know that working one totally destroys the other for me. Either I'm just weird like that, or, perhaps I'm on to something in always spacing them out :D If you find that one group seems to be lagging, consider splitting them on separate days. Heck, if you want to alter your back workouts a bit, swap your shoulder and lower back work and see how it goes. While I do a few upper back days with leg and lower back in between, just wanted to ask if there's a particular reason that you incorporate more upper back in this workout when your previous one had upper back in it as well. Otherwise, my only other thought is that the overhead pressing is pretty low for overall volume. I had crappy results with shoulders when I just did 1 exercise for them and made it my lowest priority - I found that to build up some solid shoulders, volume needed to go up considerably for me to 6-10 sets, so think about how your shoulders are coming along and consider adding another exercise if you're not happy with the results. Perhaps some 1-arm standing DB presses or if you have access to any of the Hammer Strength shoulder press machines, they're usually pretty good and rather fun from time to time.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
DAY 3
3x10 Squats
3x10 Seated Calf Raises
3x10 Hamstring Machine
3x10 Lunges
3x10 Leg Raises
3x10 Ab Ball
1x30 Medicine Ball
3x10 Stiff-leg Deadlift


By now, my mantra regarding the need to squat should be well known :D Glad to see you have them in here. Calf raises, if you need them they're fine, but unless you've got some scrawny calves that really need bulking, I wouldn't worry about them too much (I always find it interesting at my gyms how many people will do 20 sets of calf rasies, but won't spend a fraction of the time on the rest of their legs!) I've never been a lunge fan, but if you like them, then more power to you. I see lots of ab work - any particular reason for a great deal of focus on ab stuff? If you want to condense, I'd recommend cutting the ab work for 2 reasons - first, I think that 7 total sets is probably more than most people need to incorporate every time they get trained, and next, you're getting ab work indirectly done every time you squat, deadlift, barbell row, standing overhead press, etc. so much like arm work, if you're doing good compound stuff you may not need as much time devoted to abs as you think, even if they're not always sore from the way they're getting indirectly trained. I'm a prime example - I've got some big freakin' abs without having trained them more than 5 times in the past decade, but of course, they're hidden under enough fat that you'd never know they're there, so it just looks like I've got a growth hormone gut right now (but I'm working to change that :D ) I hate training abs, but they've still grown over the years just because things like supporting heavy weight overhead and draping big weight on my back for squats and hise shrugs has done wonders for them. Just something to consider - perhaps spend a month chopping the ab work down to 3 sets of your favorite heavy movement that you can't get more than a dozen or so reps on, like sit-ups with an EZ-curl bar behind the neck or something similar. Also, last of all, if you rotate back to workout #1 after the 3rd one, you're going back to lower back work soon afterward, so unless you do lightweight stiff-leg deadlifts, you might be taxing your lower back prior to the crucial back workout. Maybe consider changing to something similar that's effective yet less taxing - 1-legged SLDL or RDL comes to mind, as they totally kick my ass every time even with doing a 20-rep set with as little as 60 lbs. per hand. Just stand on one leg, hold one DB in the opposing arm, and do the movement, trying to never let the foot that's off the ground touch unless you're about to fall over. The first few times are tough, but once you get your groove it's all good. Best when done standing to the side of a bench or something above knee height so that you can tap your hand down to balance for a split second if necessary. These were a trick shown to me when I was training at NX Level where they work with a lot of top-level athletes, and while I thought it was kind of a stupid movement at first, I quickly found that nothing kills my hamstrings, hip flexors and glutes like these do.

Despite my long ramblings, nothing looks bad at all. Reasonable volume, overall most exercises look good, just a few small things I'd tweak if it were me doing the routine and that's it!

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 Post subject: Re: The Horse, fallen, but training...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:44 am 
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Elephant
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:10 pm
Posts: 2357
Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA
VeganEssentials wrote:
(day 1)
1...any particular reason for lots of pulling in the vertical plane and considerably less horizontally (upper back work, not consdering deadlifts)? I've quickly become a fan of balancing pulling in the two main planes of movement, so I might suggest that, unless you have a real need to focus more on vertical pulling, maybe adding in something else to work some extra rowing movements, even if it's just some seated cable rows or something.

(day 2)
2... just wanted to ask if there's a particular reason that you incorporate more upper back in this workout when your previous one had upper back in it as well.

3...I found that to build up some solid shoulders, volume needed to go up considerably for me to 6-10 sets, so think about how your shoulders are coming along and consider adding another exercise if you're not happy with the results. Perhaps some 1-arm standing DB presses or if you have access to any of the Hammer Strength shoulder press machines, they're usually pretty good and rather fun from time to time.

(day 3)
4...Calf raises, if you need them they're fine, but unless you've got some scrawny calves that really need bulking, I wouldn't worry about them too much (I always find it interesting at my gyms how many people will do 20 sets of calf rasies, but won't spend a fraction of the time on the rest of their legs!)

5...If you want to condense, I'd recommend cutting the ab work for 2 reasons - first, I think that 7 total sets is probably more than most people need to incorporate every time they get trained, and next, you're getting ab work indirectly done every time you squat, deadlift, barbell row, standing overhead press, etc. so much like arm work, if you're doing good compound stuff you may not need as much time devoted to abs as you think, even if they're not always sore from the way they're getting indirectly trained.

6...Also, last of all, if you rotate back to workout #1 after the 3rd one, you're going back to lower back work soon afterward, so unless you do lightweight stiff-leg deadlifts, you might be taxing your lower back prior to the crucial back workout.

7...Maybe consider changing to something similar that's effective yet less taxing - 1-legged SLDL or RDL comes to mind, as they totally kick my ass every time even with doing a 20-rep set with as little as 60 lbs. per hand. Just stand on one leg, hold one DB in the opposing arm, and do the movement, trying to never let the foot that's off the ground touch unless you're about to fall over. The first few times are tough, but once you get your groove it's all good. Best when done standing to the side of a bench or something above knee height so that you can tap your hand down to balance for a split second if necessary. These were a trick shown to me when I was training at NX Level where they work with a lot of top-level athletes, and while I thought it was kind of a stupid movement at first, I quickly found that nothing kills my hamstrings, hip flexors and glutes like these do.


1. Hmm, I never looked a a vertical/horizontal ratio. I have always been looking to train more for back width than depth (my barrel chest is thick enough already!). You think doing two different horizontal row exercises would be beneficial? What would I cut from the vertical routine?

2. Well I do shouder press and shoulder-ups for shoulders, dips and DB bench for chest, and close-grip bench and pushups for triceps. I just moved lat pulldown from back day because I was getting killed doing all that back work on one day, but I really want to develop lat width...

3. I thought about adding lateral raises, but I am hesitant to add more isolation movements. You think overhead DB press will be useful after doing military press?

4. Meh, I just want huge calves! :D

5. Fair enough, which exercise you think I should cut?

6. I actually have a 4th day for cardio, but I didn't list it b/c it doesn't relate to my lifting.

7. Hmm I will definitely try these tomorrow. Sounds like another exercise where you look goofy but it really works your body.

Oh, and thanks for all the advice!

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 410
Location: Brownsville
DV wrote:
As for a critique of your routine, I can say that since my trainer has pushed me to to more high reps I have seen improved muscle growth. I used to swear by the low rep/high weight school of thought but shaking things up a bit can cause growth.

Even when I do heavy weight, I rarely do only three sets. Four sets is my norm. Occasionally, my trainer will throw in a set that is 100 reps - however long it take you to get there. Generally, this happens on my leg day, ending with 100 leg extension and/or leg curl reps. It's definitely working for some quad separation.
I still swear by low rep/heavy weight. Bill Starr's 5x5 is where its at. I put on 30lbs of lean muscle the first time I did the routine, which is why I went back to a similiar version starting last Friday. The only high rep routine I've tried is Super Squats, but it nearly killed me literally.

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 Post subject: Re: The Horse, fallen, but training...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:38 am 
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Stegosaurus
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3071
Location: Waukesha, WI
VeganEssentials wrote:
(day 1)
1...any particular reason for lots of pulling in the vertical plane and considerably less horizontally (upper back work, not consdering deadlifts)? I've quickly become a fan of balancing pulling in the two main planes of movement, so I might suggest that, unless you have a real need to focus more on vertical pulling, maybe adding in something else to work some extra rowing movements, even if it's just some seated cable rows or something.

(day 2)
2... just wanted to ask if there's a particular reason that you incorporate more upper back in this workout when your previous one had upper back in it as well.

3...I found that to build up some solid shoulders, volume needed to go up considerably for me to 6-10 sets, so think about how your shoulders are coming along and consider adding another exercise if you're not happy with the results. Perhaps some 1-arm standing DB presses or if you have access to any of the Hammer Strength shoulder press machines, they're usually pretty good and rather fun from time to time.

(day 3)
4...Calf raises, if you need them they're fine, but unless you've got some scrawny calves that really need bulking, I wouldn't worry about them too much (I always find it interesting at my gyms how many people will do 20 sets of calf rasies, but won't spend a fraction of the time on the rest of their legs!)

5...If you want to condense, I'd recommend cutting the ab work for 2 reasons - first, I think that 7 total sets is probably more than most people need to incorporate every time they get trained, and next, you're getting ab work indirectly done every time you squat, deadlift, barbell row, standing overhead press, etc. so much like arm work, if you're doing good compound stuff you may not need as much time devoted to abs as you think, even if they're not always sore from the way they're getting indirectly trained.

6...Also, last of all, if you rotate back to workout #1 after the 3rd one, you're going back to lower back work soon afterward, so unless you do lightweight stiff-leg deadlifts, you might be taxing your lower back prior to the crucial back workout.

7...Maybe consider changing to something similar that's effective yet less taxing - 1-legged SLDL or RDL comes to mind, as they totally kick my ass every time even with doing a 20-rep set with as little as 60 lbs. per hand. Just stand on one leg, hold one DB in the opposing arm, and do the movement, trying to never let the foot that's off the ground touch unless you're about to fall over. The first few times are tough, but once you get your groove it's all good. Best when done standing to the side of a bench or something above knee height so that you can tap your hand down to balance for a split second if necessary. These were a trick shown to me when I was training at NX Level where they work with a lot of top-level athletes, and while I thought it was kind of a stupid movement at first, I quickly found that nothing kills my hamstrings, hip flexors and glutes like these do.


Fallen_Horse wrote:
1. Hmm, I never looked a a vertical/horizontal ratio. I have always been looking to train more for back width than depth (my barrel chest is thick enough already!). You think doing two different horizontal row exercises would be beneficial? What would I cut from the vertical routine?


If you already have a really thick set of lats that just aren't wide, then putting more emphasis on vertical pulling isn't a bad idea. But, for most people I think having a good balance is important. I've seen some guys with wide lats from doing plenty of pull-ups, but they look paper thin from the side because they never row or do any pulling movements in other directions. Just as well, I've got some relatively thick lats, but am just finally getting them to widen up a bit, which is because I FINALLY got back to vertical pulling regularly after neglecting it for a few years. I guess it all depends on where you stand now - I'd just say that if you put more focus on vertical pulling for a few months, change it up maybe in late January and switch the number of sets out to do more rowing movements for a bit just to keep things balanced later on.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
2. Well I do shouder press and shoulder-ups for shoulders, dips and DB bench for chest, and close-grip bench and pushups for triceps. I just moved lat pulldown from back day because I was getting killed doing all that back work on one day, but I really want to develop lat width...


I'm all with you for frequet back workouts to get wider. My upper back is a freakin' workhorse for training, and can handle a lot more than anything else. And, I need to train it more often to get the most out of gains in that area, so hitting it twice weekly isn't really all that bad. I just usually space one different workout that's unrelated to upper back between those workouts to ensure I'm properly rested, since if I hit it too often and don't go all-out every time, I just don't get much in the way of returns. I just don't know if only 3 sets on that following workout is going to be all that beneficial with such low volume for upper back again.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
3. I thought about adding lateral raises, but I am hesitant to add more isolation movements. You think overhead DB press will be useful after doing military press?


I'm not huge on lateral raises - if I do anything of that sort, on rare occasions I'll do lean-away lateral raises on a cable machine to provide a better constant resistance as my shoulder pops with DBs if I try and keep my arms fairly straight. But, I can't stress enough that with shoulders, many times more pressing is good (at least, that's what worked for me!) If you do single-arm DB overheads, you can use a bit of body English and a little tilt to work with heavier weight than you'd normally manage, which can definitely be beneficial for upping your strict overhead press strength. That, or, you could do push presses after strict pressing, or jerks in front or behind the back as well. Oh yeah, partial overhead presses are fantastic for overloading as well - I'm lucky enough that one of my gyms has a massive power rack with pin settings all the way to just 2" short of complete overhead lockout for me, so I can do standing partial presses at pretty much any height. Brutal, but fun stuff, and between those and push presses, I credit them with making me go from being happy with a 165 overhead push press up to 275 in just a little over a year (I didn't do much strict pressing at that time, just lots of leg drive presses, some jerks, and anything that forced me to handle weights well beyond my strict press mark).

Fallen_Horse wrote:
4. Meh, I just want huge calves! :D


Well, that's as good a reason as any! :D From years of being the fat kid, I've never had less than 19" calves, so I guess I had a mixed blessing in that regard with never needing to work them much.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
5. Fair enough, which exercise you think I should cut?


That's a tough one to say. I'd recommend cutting (at least temporarily) whichever exercise in the 3-set range that provides you with less challenge to complete. If you're hitting 3x10 with some added weight in one of those movements and can barely scrape by with the final rep on the last set, then you're doing pretty well. Or, just alternate each of your two main ab movements each time that workout comes around to keep things varied. Like I said, I'm not big on ab training so I'm not the best with advice on them, but if you're supporting heavy weight in other compound lifts, then I'd think 3-4 sets total should do you well.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
6. I actually have a 4th day for cardio, but I didn't list it b/c it doesn't relate to my lifting.


That's good to know. Gives you a bit more time to recover, which is ideal.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
7. Hmm I will definitely try these tomorrow. Sounds like another exercise where you look goofy but it really works your body.


Yeah, they look weird, are hard as hell to keep your balance with at first (I recommend just trying to hit 20 reps each leg with a 15-20 lb. DB the first time to learn the movement). Here's a link to a video clip of how it looks:

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=7eACTTzeh-E

As you'll see, he's doing it with 2 DBs, but with one it really challenges your stability more and I credit that with being why my hip flexors really get worked on them. One thing to note, I recommend bending the knee as if you were doing a Romanian DL rather than keeping as straight as he does. You'll feel it a LOT more in the hamstrings with a decent leg bend. For years I had the attitude that if it wasn't a major compound movement, it wasn't for me, but a few things along the way have convinced me that those "weird" exercises can have a sound place in a program and will do some good overall. Heck, pro strongman Phil Pfister came back to win the WSM contest after spending a year doing lots of plyometics, stability work and explosive light to moderate weight movements, so while it's not a "big" lift, let's say that if the day comes that you can crank out high-rep sets of these with a 120+ lb. DB, you'll be one strong dude for sure.

Fallen_Horse wrote:
Oh, and thanks for all the advice!


Not a problem. Thank YOU for actually reading my typical novel-length replies! :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:50 pm 
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Ok, ok, playing around with more routines, and I have decided that my 'problem' with lifting is that I switch routines too much (have you noticed? :D ) so I am gonna do a 5x5 variation and stick with it!

Fri 01/23
Squat 2x5x45, 2x5x45, 2x5x55
Bench 2x5x45, 2x5x45, 2x5x45
Press 2x5x80, 2x5x90, 2x5x100
Chins 6x4x4

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:58 am 
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Mon 12/26

Squat 2x5x45, 2x5x55, 2x5x60
Bench 2x5x45, 2x5x55, 1x5x55, 1x2x60
Press 2x5x80, 2x5x90, 1x5x100, 1x5x110
Chins 6,5,4

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:32 pm 
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Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Wed 01/28
Squat 2x5x45, 2x5x55, 2x5x65
Incline Bench 2x5x35, 2x5x45, 2x5x55
Deads (1x5x45, 1x5x70), 2x5x70, 2x5x70

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 Post subject: Re: The Fallen_Horse and his crazy antics...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Fri 01/30
Squat 2x5x45, 2x5x55, 2x5x65
Bench 2x5x45, 2x5x55, 2x5x55
Pullups 5x4x3

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