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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Manatee
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I am glad to hear that so many people have had good results on 811. I really want to go there but clearly it must be a slower transition. I think one of the major problems is that I just can not get down the amount of food required to sustain on this plan. I was surprised since veganism was a really easy transition for me, and going straight from being a meat eater. No transition required. I would just love the energy and strength that this program promises because I have not achieved the energy, leanness, or health that I expected from a vegan diet.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:34 pm 
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B12 deficiency was first discovered in people eating a meat based diet.

B12 is also produced in our small intestine. The main problem people run into is a lack of absorption. B12 is bacterially produced and is widely abundant. When one's digestive system is healthy b12 is not an issue.

B12 deficiency has also been reversed by fasting. Purely consuming water and resting, people were able to regain sufficient b12 levels.

I have not found or been shown evidence that vegans are in inherently in danger of becoming deficient in b12. It smells like a protein myth.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Manatee
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rawsomehealth wrote:
B12 deficiency was first discovered in people eating a meat based diet.

B12 is also produced in our small intestine. The main problem people run into is a lack of absorption. B12 is bacterially produced and is widely abundant. When one's digestive system is healthy b12 is not an issue.


http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int

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B12 deficiency has also been reversed by fasting. Purely consuming water and resting, people were able to regain sufficient b12 levels.

Please link to a scientific study demonstrating this.

rawsomehealth wrote:
I have not found or been shown evidence that vegans are in inherently in danger of becoming deficient in b12.

Well you can't say that anymore -
http://www.ajcn.org/content/3/5/375.full.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20648045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19852900
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17357323
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17130110
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15674451
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12460231
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11785055


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:11 pm 
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rawsomehealth wrote:
I have not found or been shown evidence that vegans are in inherently in danger of becoming deficient in b12. It smells like a protein myth.


Uh, might want to check with Jack Norris, who unlike the "there's no problem with a lack of B-12" people, is actually a reistered dietitian and has researched this topic for the good of the vegan community. Or, someone like Vesanto Melina MS Registered Dietitian. Or, Ginny Messina MPH, RD. Or Brenda Davis, another vegan registered dietitian who would refute this. These are people who study vegan dietary habits and health for the good of the movement for veganism - they could do well enough by NOT caring about our habits, but we should appreciate that they're trying to steer us in the right direction for our own sake, not because they're getting rich off of us.

I don't mean to butt into this thread any longer out of any necessity other than to debunk the junk science that goes on far too often in these parts. You can choose to supplement with B-12 or not, but if you're one who does get a deficiency, you'd better pray really hard to your diety of choice that you can "fix" some of the great ailments that come with it, which aren't pretty.

Just advice for those who keep saying otherwise, which is wholly irresponsible. It isn't like there's an international vegan B-12 conspiracy with Monsanto pulling the strings - just take a dose every so often, and there's ZERO worry about deficiencies. If you don't, you're taking a risk in the long run - just because you might have gone a few years without caring about it does NOT mean you'll live your whole life without putting yourself at risk. Take my advice to be concerned in the long run, or don't, that's your choice.

I'm over trying to be a voice of reason on this board these days. There's getting to be SO much in the way of potentially harmful information being shared as if it were the true path to optimal health, it's weighing hard on my concience to be a part of anything more than simply posting my training log here. It's just not worth the stress, but yet, I hate to think of people reading this kind of stuff and thinking that it's actually true that we don't need to worry about something like B-12. With so many impressionable new vegans that come here who can fall prey to junk science and terrible misinformation, I'm doing all I can to try and show that just because someone might say "eat nothing but 3 lbs. of pineapple a day and you'll be fine", there's no real reason to believe it to be accurate just because someone else said they eat that way.

Oh well, let the junk science continue. I'll be busy training hard and learning to avoid some of these discussions that are far from factual in order to keep my stress levels down. It's only making me feel bad for veganism the more the junk gets spread as being optimal, it's simply a black eye on the movement in general.

As a final thought, do some people not find it odd that Paige mentioned how terrible she felt trying to go 80/10/10, yet all she gets are people insisting to keep with it even if she feels worse for it? It's as if nobody seems to care that someone's health can take a downturn just because they want to see their favorite diet appear as if it were flawless, even if it's at the expense of someone like Paige who may not ever find the diet to be optimal for her. Like I said earlier, the junk science does not allow for dissent, it simply creates excuses when its flaws become apparent, and puts the blame on the end user, not the program itself. (Raw) food for thought there, people.

And, the only "protein myth" is that of the side who continually uses failed logic to declare protein to be harmful beyond the bare minimum. Not ONCE has anyone had science to back that claim up, but my god, do some of you cling to that failed notion like it's your only reason for existing....

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Manatee
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I'm in total agreement VE. This place is a magnet for people with weird ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:27 pm 
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vegimator, those studies you referenced do not rule out diet as the sole cause of the deficiencies. THey do make claims, but do not substantiate the "how"


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Manatee
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Yes, I'm sure you know much better than the consensus of actual researchers.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Manatee
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VE: Don't ever give up posting, we need to hear it all and everyone should decide for themselves what works. And, I take B-12 every day, first because my studies showed that vegans may become deficient and now because it makes me feel good. Funny how our bodies talk to us that way. And thank you for caring about my health.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:27 am 
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vegimator wrote:
This place is a magnet for people with weird ideas.


This.

I appreciate everyone who is interested in discussing nutritional science, I've really learned a lot and I love when people post studies to back up their claims, but I could do without the whackiness of some threads.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:57 am 
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Manatee
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I know that my raw food friends are not going to be happy with me but yesterday I had some brown rice and some air popped popcorn. I slept and I feel human today. I am headed out soon to train. Although it may also be that I got in 2200 cals. Not sure. I am going to give it a shot today on 80/10/10 and make sure I get in the cals. I am going to see if that works, I just didn't do it yesterday, I was just too sick. I am going to start focusing in on how my body feels on my foods instead of what makes me loss weight. That approach has not worked for me as I never feel great.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:13 am 
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Manatee
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I am not telling people what to do. It is a personal choice. However I myself am 99% convinced this b12 thing is a myth. Do you remember how back in the mid 90ies creatine was the new wonder? Most articles never forgot to mention that vegetarians (the word vegan was not very popular back then) had no way of obtaining creatine and had to definitely take supplements. I kept asking myself how all these people produced enough ATP to even lift their arms up? It turned out that creatine was biosynthesised in the body.
B12 is produced by many bacteria. It is produced in our bodies as well. We take it from interaction with the environment. if you don't live in a sterile environment (which some people in cities do) or if you go outdoors you will get b12 from the environment.
I've been vegan for a little less than 3 years and I do sports, I don't take B12 and I have absolutely no problems with my neural system whatsoever.
I respect people's choice. It is not me who decides whether they are going to take supplements or not. If you prefer to be on the safe side, sure, take the pill, forget about the issue and focus on other more important things in your life. After all, most of us don't have laboratories at home to conduct experiments.
For those of us who think that nature can't have created us dependent on supplements (assuming that nature creates us vegans), sooner or later, the truth comes out :)
Anyway, the 80 10 10 diet works for me.
Btw good approach, Paige. Listen to your body.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:30 am 
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Manatee
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Felt much better yesterday, although had about 400 of my cals in cooked food. But everything was good whole fruits and veggies. So this is a process for me. One thing I have learned in the last week is that I have been starving my body for a long time, trying to eat 1200cals a day, which tells me why I have problems with binge eating. 4 days at 1200cals and then eating out of control on the 5th day. Probably why I have been holding on to this extra weight. For now my goals are good whole foods, mostly raw fruits and veggies, with some cooked foods and eating enough so I can keep my energy high and my training good. I think I am going to have to learn to get adequate nutrients first before I can do a full conversion to 80/10/10. I am really glad I did this so I could learn that. Oh, and good tips on salad dressing from this thread. Made some great stuff yesterday. I really have gotten some great feedback on this thread no matter what anyone says.


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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:27 am 
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What's frustrating to many of us is that people tend to repeat the same claims over and over again, and ignore links and scientific studies that specifically debunk those oft-repeated claims.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I am not telling people what to do. It is a personal choice. However I myself am 99% convinced this b12 thing is a myth.

You might not specifically be telling anyone what to do (as in "YOU--don't take B12!"), but repeating myths of B12 in public forums IS attempting to influence other people to believe as you do and reach the conclusion that they don't need B12. If you truly don't want to influence what anyone else decides regarding their own B12 supplementation, you shouldn't share your opinion (including what you present as facts rather than opinion) on it.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
B12 is produced by many bacteria.

It is actually correct that B12 is produced by bacteria.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
It is produced in our bodies as well.

That is true as well. However, it is produced in our intestines and it's highly unlikely we can use any of it. http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int (already posted above)

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
We take it from interaction with the environment. if you don't live in a sterile environment (which some people in cities do) or if you go outdoors you will get b12 from the environment.

This is not true. Do you have any studies showing this?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I've been vegan for a little less than 3 years and I do sports, I don't take B12 and I have absolutely no problems with my neural system whatsoever.

B12 deficiency can take well over 3 years to manifest. In addition, some symptoms (e.g., elevated homocysteine) are not obvious until they cause other problems.

In the end, people shouldn't listen to anyone who posts their opinion on a forum. Read articles and studies by people who actually have relevant qualifications. Links to such information has been provided here. They all, oddly enough, say to supplement. I haven't seen any links to studies sayiing supplementation is not recommended.

Again, here's a really thourough article with links to scientific studies: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

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 Post subject: How you can get B12 from plants!
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Manatee
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Since we're discussing the 80/10/10 diet, I read the B12 chapter again and I will try to summarize
what this particular book says since so many people care about B12.
According to the "80/10/10 diet" vitamin B12 can be obtained from natural plant sources.
Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria. It was not discovered until 1948. In 1942 some pharmaceutical companies
started using leftover chemical weapons from WWII as pesticides and insecticides. Plants soak up vitamin B12
(among other vitamins) from the soil where the said bacteria live. As a result of the use of chemicals, the soil has been sterilized
so the plants cannot extract the B12 from the soil.
Therefore most nutritional researches encounter no vitamin B12 in plants.
Organically grown plants cultivated in an organically composted soil can contain plenty of vitamin B12.
We can also obtain it from the environment:
A hundred years ago people did not wash their food so much and some of the soil which clung to carrots, lettuce,
celery and such got eaten and it often contained B12. B12 can also be contained in the dirt which
accumulates around the stem of apples, pears, peaches, apricots, etc.
(That is what I meant about getting it from the environment. For example, I wash my fruit in the city
but when I'm on my granny's farm, I would just wipe the dirt off and eat it. Some friends of mine and
I went to the mountains on bikes this Saturday and I bought some apples from a local shop in a village -
an "industrial shop", and I just wiped them and ate them. There's some chance that I got B12 from
the area around the stem. Still, it wasn't an organic shop so who knows ;) )
So yes, now that you made me read this again, I know more about B12:)
Moral of the story: stick to organic farming, to produce from organic soils and you'll have no B12 deficiency!
This would also explain how vegans did not die enmass from B12 deficiency before its discovery in 1948.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Rereading an book about dietary urban folklore will only further drill in wrong information.

Why don't you get a copy of "Becoming Vegan" if you want to read a nutrition book? The authors are RDs who helped write the "American Dietetic Association's Position Paper On Vegetarianism". Brenda Davis RD, is also enthusiastic about raw foods and cowrote "Becoming Raw"

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