Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

After reading through Clarence Bass's book, Challenge Yourself, I decided to periodize a bit better. I like his idea od doing 4-5 weeks of reps staying at about 20 reps per exercise, then 4-5 weeks of 12-15 and then 4-5 weeks of 6-8 reps. However, I forget if he goes to his max weight during all phases, hence 20 reps would be 100% max at that rep range. He may have said to stay in the 65-75% of max for that rep range when doing 20 reps and a little higher percentage wehn doing 12-15 and closer to 100% when working in the 6-8 range.

Of course I have trouble leaving my ego at the door when I enter the gym so I go all out always and go with my max for any range, hence I probably am not giving myself a break. What I should probably do is maybe go with lighter weights early in tyhe 4-5 cycle and then peak the last week so that I might do 60-70% of my 15-20 rep max early on and then hitting 100% for 15 reps by ther last week....then move onto the lower rep range the next week and so on.....

So here I am going all out.....
Last night at the gym it was very crowded and I wanted to get throgh my workout fast. I only did 20 pushups and then a 15 rep warmup with a light to medium weight on the flat dumbbell bench press. I then went right into my main work set where I did 15 reps of the maximum weight I could do for that rep range and made a new personal best so I went all out and had to really grunt through the last few reps.

Then before the next set, while I was resting, I noticed pain in my right shoulder/pec area. I was able to continue the sowrkout but I did have some pain, I worked through it. Bad move. The pain is right in the pocket between the pec and deltoid below the clavical. It is pretty sore today, was hurting while trying to get dressing this morning.

Of course, today is back day and am wondering if I should skip even though the injury seems to be more impacted by pushing movements. Maybe I should take a week or two off from upper body? Just do legs and cardio? What do you guys think? Should I go see my favorite sports medicine orthopedic specialist as well?

Thanks

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

I would just take it easy for a little while and see if it gets better on its own. There shouldn't be much harm in doing other exercises as long as this pain isn't acting up during them.

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I went to the gym today and after a 15 minute warm up, I tried to do some light seated rows and the pain in that area was too bad so I skipped today's workout and just did cardio. I am taking the rest odf the week to just do light cardio and legs.

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

24 hours later and still stiff and sore.
Can't determine what muscle it is......near or under the clavicle.

How long should a strained muscle take to heal?

I do each body part once a week but there is overlap with shoulders since right now I do chest on Monday and shoulders on Thursday and when you think about it, shoulders get pounded during the bench press. On Thursday I do a machine overhead press, side and rear raises and some external rotator work. Maybe I am over training shoulders.

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

Stuff around the shoulder region can be tricky - I hurt my left shoulder once years ago by letting a 1-arm snatch drift back too far, that thing was sore for a month and gave me a bit of trouble for nearlt 6 months afterward before I noticed it didn't hurt any longer.\

I'd say stick clear of too much direct chest/shoulder work for a while, at least 2 weeks, just to see if things will get better on their own or if you may need to get it looked at. When I hurt mine, that's when I changed from normal benching to close-grip with elbows tucked in (puts a LOT less stress on the shoulders and becomes more triceps-dominant), I narrowed my overhead pressing to using a grip just a hair outside shoulder width vs. using a wider grip, and did anything I could to get around the pain.

Sometimes it will go away on its own, sometimes you need something done to help it get better. Definitely go easy for two weeks, avoid anything that causes pain in that area, and wait it out a bit. You'll know more after it has had time to heal up for what it can do naturally, then you'll know if it's just a small issue or could be something more.

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

VeganEssentials,

Within in four days it is feeling much better...in fact almost no symptoms! I am still taking the rest of the week off and MAYBE next week. I have problems with my left elbow and close grip bench is too hard on my elbow. Plus, chest/shoulder has been a weak point(especially since I can't do any overhead pressing) so I am finding a more shoulder width to be best for my chest and shoulder.

I might try the close grip overhead press. I am sort of the kind that believes with a good chest press program and dips, there is little need for overhead pressing, other than a risk of overtraining and injury.

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

I wouldn't discount overhead pressing too much, though. I recently re-read an article by an guy who has been involved in lifting for half a century, and he made a great point that I'd forgotten, which is:

Shoulder injuries were very rare in the days when EVERYONE who lifted did heavy overhead pressing, but once people stopped putting focus on overhead and started to worry more about benching, that's when the last few decades of numerous shoulder injuries have come about. Up until the 70s, for the most part, if you didn't have a good overhead lift, it was unusual, and people had fewer issues with shoulder injuries. Now that most people have gone from doing overhead to only doing their pressing lying down, it's definitely causing more people to get hurt as they're not balancing out their pressing in different planes of movement.

Also, to consider, I do believe that many people simply have terrible form on overhead pressing but think they're doing it properly, and they end up hurt sooner or later. I still don't know where all this "only lower the rep part way down" stuff came from, but that's the ONLY time I ever feel stress on my shoulders, when I cut the ROM short (of course, this doesn't apply to lifts that are intended to be only partial movements, but if I'm doing a standing press, it will ALWAYS start on the clavicles and reach full lockout at the end). Just as some people have this insistence that behind-the-neck pressing will end up in disaster, I've been doing it off and on for years, and it actually makes my shoulders feel better overall because I do it with weight I can handle AND will always make sure my form is good on every rep. It's the "cut-the-rep-short" stuff, the "I can't move this much weight on my own, so assist the last 3 reps" schtick and all those unnatural feeling movements like lateral DB raises with straight arms that give me grief. As long as I do quality, full ROM presses, shoulders always feels fine.

Perhaps it's something to consider in that, maybe the avoidance of keeping balance by doing more overhead work is making your shoulders more susceptible to potential injury vs. the opinion that not working them is keeping them safe. I know that such an attitude is why my lower back has been giving me grief again, I slacked for months on deadlifting, and now when I do rows or other lifts that are tough on the core, I feel my back straining and feeling weak because I have failed to keep it as strong as it should be. Just a thought that might apply to your situation, as avoiding working a part is fine while injured or recovering, but letting one body part slide while building the areas around it can lead to more and more injuries in time if you don't balance things out!

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

I guess I feel you open yourself up for injury because chest work involves the anterior head of the delt quite a bit and doing an overhead press just hits it again! So, it seems like a lot to do chest on Monday and Shoulders on Thursday hitting some of the same muscle. I find I do best giving each muscle group 7 days to rest. I also find if I include overhead pressing into my chest day, I can't bring the intensity to both exercises.

In addition, ever since I had Lyme disease, my left shoulder has been a mess. Serious pain with overhead pressing.
For example, I CAN do an overhead press on some seated machines if I do not come down below half way, meaning I can not take my arm past a 90 degree angle or the stress/pain is so bad on my shoulder. Same with the bench press....I can't take my arm past a 90 degree angle. I also talked with a lot of sports medicine specialists and read many articles that have stated there is no need to go beyond that anyway. I have made great gains this past year following these guidelines, probably some of my best progress in all my years of training.

Exercises that feel best with my shoulder joints are lateral and rear raises.
I have tried to incorporate overhead pressing like I used to but there is too much pain in my left shoulder during these movements.

Quick note on deadlifts. Because of my height I find deadlifts tough. i have very long legs, I tried a trap bar which caused my knee t hit the bar during the movement. I also find it difficult to squeeze them into my routine. My legs are too fatigued to do them after squatting and I don't like to do them on back day because I find I can't recover enough to be able to do squats and deads on separate days. Best I have been able to do is squats one week, deadlifts the next, squats the next, etc.

Below is part of an article I found:

Individuals with any anterior shoulder laxity (loose joints) or history of subluxation/dislocation are also at increase risk for rotator cuff injury or labral (shoulder cartilage) damage. Furthermore, you also have the potential to rupture the pectoralis tendon with full range pressing during heavy loads. The safe answer is to lower the bar until the upper arm is parallel to the floor (elbow bent to 90 degrees). This prevents the shoulder joint from moving into the unsafe range. The same advice applies to push-ups.

Lat Pull Downs - This is a good exercise to strengthen the back, but when done behind the head it can cause problems. Like the bench press, pulling the bar down behind the head positions the humerus in such a way that the rotator cuff can be pinched. This may depend on other factors, including the shape of a person's acromion and degree of any present arthritis, but I still believe the risk outweighs any benefit. Not to mention that keeping the bar in front of the head still accomplishes the same movement for the target muscle, while eliminating the risk of shoulder injury. Remember not to sway during the movement, and position the body in a slightly reclined position, pulling the bar toward the sternum. Another unrelated reason not to do behind the neck pull downs is that it places undue stress on the cervical spine.

Military Press - This exercise when performed behind the neck with a bar, positions the shoulder in the aforementioned unfavorable position. Done repeatedly, the rotator cuff can become inflamed. Similar to behind the neck pull downs, you also expose your neck to unnecessary stress. It is safer to perform the exercise in front of the head or utilize dumbbells and work in the scapular plane. You must watch to avoid arching the low back and it is best to use a bench with back support to prevent this.

Dips/Upright Row - As before, the key mistake made with these exercises is allowing the shoulder to move beyond 90 degrees relative to a position parallel to the floor or perpendicular to the body. I always recommend stopping at 90 degrees to protect the shoulder capsule and the rotator cuff

Another article:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/201119-dangerous-shoulder-exercises/

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

I never do chest and shoulders on the same day, for the same reason, whichever I do first, the second one will suffer. Because of the deltoid and triceps overlap, I've never understood why people do them both together, I've always put 2-4 days between to make sure that they're not too close together. Usually, I'll do shoulders earlier in the week as they tend to recover faster, then chest later on.

I apologize for forgetting that you have a pre-existing shoulder injury, that will definitely be a game-changer for how you have to train.

Though, the "don't go past a certain ROM" stuff is pretty must still operating on a lot of old, outdated notions for safety. Just like how people who are "experts" STILL make the terrible claim of "cut your squats before you reach parallel" even though it has been shown to cause greater stress and shear on the kneecap, causing much more potential for injury, some people still cling to what they heard years ago and won't change their minds. For example, doing overhead presses in the front, there's nothing that has EVER proven to be harmful in lowering the bar to the clavicles on each rep, but there has been evidence to show that cutting the reps short by stopping abruptly around face height can affect the shoulder joint negatively. One main reason people don't like to lower all the way down is for the same reason they don't like to squat deeply - it's an ego-checker, you'll never be able to do as much weight for a full ROM movement as you can with a partial. Coming from a dead-stop on the clavicles is MUCH tougher to get the bar moving again than it is when people start from the lockout position and work into the rep from the finished position vs. the "true" starting position. Much like, a deadlift starting from lockout is not the same as starting from the floor, because one will have momentum that can be used to your mechanical advantage, the other does not. Things like this topic are why I prefer to get my information from people who are proficient trainers themselves in addition to being experts in their field - there's often a LOT more credibility to listening to someone who has spent decades hitting the iron and competing who has excellent credentials vs. someone who may have great credentials, but whose only knowledge of lifting is what they've read in their coursebooks, or what they did during their teenage years decades back. The more hands-on personal experience someone has can often prove that their information is more accurate than that of the more respected "experts" who, rather than seeing things first-hand, go based solely on literature and studies. Precisely why my friend and business partner Kirk has great success with his clients - he's got the perfect balance between being exceptionally well-read in his studies, but also has a decade of personal experience in the iron game and has trained hundreds of people, some of whom overcame big physical limitations to be better than ever. I can't say I've had the same experiences in dealing with chrios, osteos or sports medicine folks that only went by their books and didn't have the same experience in the field dealing with actual weight training and related injuries.

For deadlifts, leverages due to longer legs can definitely make them more challenging. What you might want to consider is doing something like Romanian deadlifts vs. conventional (and to put them on a day different from when you work your legs), you'll still be able to hit the hams, glutes and lower back hard, you can start from the rack vs. off the floor, and it might just feel a bit better on your body than traditional deadlifts (if you haven't already tried them). Trap bars are fun, but depending on the style, some are definitely too small. There's one called the Gerard Trap bar that supposedly has much more interior room for larger framed and longer legged folks, but they're not always easy to come by. Also, if you find that squats interfere with deadlifts too much and vice-versa, consider alternating the focus for intensity between them to keep things feeling good. For example, if you squat hevy for 5x8 and you're drained for a while, don't deadlift for at least 3 days, and do something like lower weight for higer reps, moderately heavy doubles, or something that will still work what needs to be worked but won't leave you feeling trashed all week. I know that people often like to stick with a program, but if you have the option of throwing in a day of deadlifts (such as, doing 10 sets of 2 reps @ 75% of your max in order to avoid getting too fatigued) and being able to recover from them before squatting again, OR, not doing them at all, it's pretty clear which one is the better choice for getting larger and stronger.

Best of success, though, in working around your shoulder any way you can. But, I'd stick clear of too many articles such as the ones below that tend to make too many claims about things being "dangerous". Such as, they don't take into consideration that olympic lifters train the jerk (which they usually train the most often, sometimes twice daily) from a front racked shoulder position and do all their pressing from the clavicles as well, and they're not known for shoulder issues (no more than they're known for bad knees from squatting, despite going deeper than any bodybuilder or powerlifter ever will). They also train lots of drop snatches and power jerks from a racked position behind the neck, again, they don't suffer from any high level of shoulder issues, and they do about 20x the volume of shoulder training that you or I will ever do in a single week. There's always a fair reason to be forewarned in case of pre-existing factors, but I have to say, anywhere that simply will try to scare people into not doing a particular lift usually hits a big red flag with me. Like I've said, I've been doing behind the neck presses off and on for a long time, nothing bad has ever happened, but such articles would have people believe my shoulders are about ready to fall apart. Just as I used to do lots of upright rows and even spent a few years early on doing pulldowns behind the neck, neither of which caused instantaneous shoulder destruction as such articles would have people believe and never caused even a minor injury after years of training. Again, pre-existing conditions and terrible form can make such movements dangerous, but I think that too many people simply feel compelled to pick some lifts apart while ignoring much more that truly is dangerous (funny to me how most of these "experts" should be spending more time telling people to watch out for getting hurt by doing lifts on Bosu balls, doing too challenging of moves on the TRX trainers, etc. where people actually tend to get injured much more often!)

In any case, best of luck with the training, just beware that sometimes, info out there isn't really as great as it's made out to be, because facts and experience often can show a complete contraindication to such statements!

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

VeganEssentials,

I can do triceps the same workout as chest but not shoulder the same day as chest. However, I have considered moving triceps to shoulder day to see how that impact my overall workout scheme. Might try it...

I guess I could try shoulder on Monday and chest Thursday but lately have been having good results with chest on Monday. Because I am really trying to build up my chest, I like having everything fresh and recovered by the time I hit chest so I have been doing it Monday. I was afraid doing delts on Monday could interfere with chest later in the week. I find the overlap of pecs and delts a tough one to deal with. Trying to squeeze in dips makes it even harder! Never sure when to do those. LOL.
If you think about it, your delts still take a pounding during chest work!

Thanks for the info brother. I do go to and below parallel in the squat and it has heled!

I might take your thoughts on full range for shoulder and chest work and get back to how I used to train before the shoulder problems. I will tell you, training with a small ROM sems to have helped me with pain and has also allowed me to lift more and gain more muscle than i have in years.
I can tell you I have way more shoulder pain when I go beyond parallel and I also get clicking in my left elbow at that point.

What about full range of motion exposing the shoulder joint to injury and long term problems. No truth? I am more interesting like you in people who are not only well read but have real world experience. I also like to look at people who have been in the game for years, and are now into their 40s and 50s injury free while training full range of motion.

I do squats right now on Friday so maybe I will try throwing in some deads on my back day which is Tuesday, assuming it does not interfere with my squats. Never tried partial deads but might. Thanks.
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noA5iBH-WIw

The one guy who has a scientific mind, is well read, is a doctor and has lots of weight experience is Dr. Michael Colgan. He has also worked with a lot of athletes and trains often himself.
He claims the upright row is loony, and in his shoulder program he never mentions any overhead pressing, instead he talks about many other forms of side, rear and various raises, all full range, and dips, etc. But like you said, someone like this is still in the minority.

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

I find that I can hammer triceps well after benching OR shoulder work, but benching AND shoulder work don't go together well for me at all. I'm usually a narrow-grip bencher, meaning triceps have a lot more recruitment, and I use a grip that's just barely past shoulders for overhead, so I still get a fair amount of triceps recruitment there as well. That's why I don't do both on the same day and never without at least a day or two between, but I'm always happy to get some extra triceps work at the end of either one, as it has minimal interference overall.

Typically, I find that my front delts get hit the hardest with the benching and pressing (my side delts don't seem to activate extremely well sometimes, so they don't get as fatigued unless I do specific work like lateral raises), so that's one more reason why if I bench first, my shoulders don't work so well for overhead afterward. But, my front delts, like triceps, usually are back to being pretty fresh for training again after 2-3 days, so I don't usually find much interference so long as there's that small gap between sessions.

Like I said, if your condition makes full ROM on shoulders painful, then in such a case, less-than-full ROM may be best for you. If there's pain that isn't just "I'm sore from lifting", then you have to find a way to work around it - and, if you're getting good results from less than full ROM, then you may as well keep at it until it doesn't yield the results you want. My remarks about full ROM to the clavicles on overhead pressing was geared more toward those who don't have any pre-existing conditions to factor in, those who might just be going off of what they heard around the gym, in a magazine, etc. about not lowering all the way. Again, if there's unnatural pain, then steer clear of full ROM and work with what you can. As an old training partner said to me recently, "Sometimes, you just have to admit you can't do all that you used to, and at that point, you have to decide to either train in ways that keep you injury-free, accept that you'll keep getting hurt from not knowing your limitations, or just quit altogether." It was kind of a tough thing to take at the time, as I always keep thinking that I will one day be stronger than I was at my best. Sometimes you just have to be humble, and accept that the road back may be longer, or, that it may not take you as far as you want to go.

For the Romanian Deadlifts, usually, the bar won't touch the floor, and depending on torso/arm/leg length, sometimes you will end the rep with the plates being about 3-6" from reaching the floor. Here's a good description by the late J.V. Askem -

http://www.marunde-muscle.com/fitness/askem_rdl.html

Video-wise, this one is a bit more descriptive and shows that you don't necessarily need to go all the way down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS3x75_YpsE

Upright rows, I think that typically, people are not doing them in an optimal way. When I do them on rare occasions, I find that it's uncomfortable to do them wiht anything less than about a 2' wide grip, sometimes wider. I find less stress on the shoulders and more delt activation if I go with a wide grip on them, and there's also not the same wrist stress, either. But, you'll handle less weight that way, so that's most likely why you'll see most people doing them with a narrow grip, because you can cheat the weight up a lot easier than when you go wide. I don't consder them an essential movement by any means, just a rare "finisher" I might throw in, but they haven't been a part of a regular training program for me in over a decade, since there are better things to do than put those as the focus.

There's no question, many people have built some great shoulders by not doing as much pressing, but it's much like when people have built great chests by doing flyes, machine work, etc. vs. actual benching. You may end up doing something that inadvertantly puts more stress on the joints in other ways vs. the main movement (such as benching), and while there may be some decent development in time, the overall strength in the muscle and connective tissues won't be the same as doing the more effective compound movement. Again, if they work well particularly in needing to work around a painful spot, totally fine to work around a compound movement, I just rarely suggest going with multiple small isolation exercises vs. a good compound lift because you A) get more bang for your buck by working the most in one lift, and B) it can save time just getting in a few sets of pressing vs. having something like 3 other isolation lifts that are replacing it. Just like how I've got some big freakin' abs and have done almost zero direct ab work in my life, everything that has been built was from squatting, deadlifting, standing overhead presses, and strongman event stuff. But, on that same token, I haven't been particularly focused on bodybuilding (rather, I just want to feel strong again and not get hurt in the process), so there can be more use to doing other things beyond the basic compound stuff depending on your overall mission.

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

Thanks for the link on the deadlifts. I used to do deads and I think that is how I had performed them, which worked better now that I remember than the trap bars deads. I also used to do stiff legged deads. You know watching the video, it looks like what I know as stiff legged dead lifts!?
Maybe I don't know the actual difference. The actual movement looks about the same and again I have done plenty of stiff legged deadlists. Is the difference that with stiff legged lifts, the weight is lifted from the gorund and with romanian starts with the eccentric component? The lift itself sems the same.

I figued it was best to do full deadlifts, not stiff legged.

I might try to add some sets into my back routine. I will have to see if they fit better at the start of my back day routine or after the core of my back work.

You know the interesting part about the shoulder press is that I can do over head presses if I use light dumbells, for high reps! I also can do overhead if I use machines, where I don't have to control the weight and again watch the ROM. Nothing like what I used to do with the overhead press with DBs or an Olympic bar.

I also agree with compound movements. I also think it is important to do more expercises that take the shoulder through it's full range. Take a look at the shoulder chapter in Colgan's The Power Program. It helped me throug some tough shoulder times.

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

During both a SLDL and RDL your shins stay vertical, but the difference is the distance of the bar from your body (which results in how far back your hips get pushed). A SLDL is performed further away from the body so the hips aren't pushed as far back (thighs stay more vertical), whereas a RDL the bar is kept as close to you as possible whilst keeping shins vertical (in turn the hips need to be pushed right back).

Both have nothing to do with not touching the floor, it's just that most people don't have the hamstring flexibility to reach the floor with a flat back.

Normal deadlifts the knees will come forward a bit in the start position resulting in a more upright back position.



I squat Mon/Fri and Deadlift Wed. Just because there is a bit of soreness carried over doesn't mean you should pussyfoot about. If you let your body parts fully recover before everytime you do a real exercise then why's your body ever going to adapt to the load?

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chewybaws, did you see the video I posted? The guy does the Romanian deads to the floor and the form looks good.

I am also not pusyfooting about. I firmly believe if you have sorenes in the muscle, there is still healing taking place. I allow a day or to for recovery following soreness, for me this is about 7 days. In my years of training, I have found this to be best for me in terms of recovery and progress. I have found if I train a particular muscle before the soreness has abated, I tend to be weaker and never have as good a workout. This is even more critical as I get older. I am a big believer in the wound healing theory when it comes to bodybuilding. Why do you accuse me of pussyfooting around? You need to know the facts before taking shots at someone.
For me, squating once during the week works best as with all of my exercies.

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What do I do when not bodybuilding or working? Spend time with family, play guitar, write music, snowboard, roast coffee, travel, read, fight for those who are less fortunate than myself.

I totally encourage that if flexibility allows you should do them from the floor.



On the note of recovery. I train with A LOT of squatters. And if anyone takes more than a few weeks off then go back to squatting again (including the older and more experienced lifters) they'll admit they are sore for many many days after the initial session back. It's generally accepted that the worst thing to do is just to avoid those muscles till they just recover themselves, and active recovery is favoured (less weight, high reps to flush blood in the muscles, and stretching benefits - this is common with all athletes). The more frequently and consistently you do these exercises, the less soreness you'll experience (even at high workloads), it's how high volume squat progs work.

If you want the benefit of compound exercises you HAVE to accept there's going to be a crossover and building a schedule that only has you working everything once a week will be difficult (unless you only workout once or twice a week).

I train with a couple of masters class powerlifters at 51 and 60 years old who didn't change any training aspects with age. Although we train for strength and not muscle size/symmetry it still ties in with feeling weak when sore.

You'd be surprised how much you can deadlift when your body still aches from squatting. Squatting is more quads/groin/glutes where deadlifts hang more on the back/hamstrings. But most importantly, the more frequently you do either the less soreness you'll experience.

And I'm not taking a shot, didn't think you'd take that seriously - lighten up

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