New here, almost vegan...

Hello to all,

I am currently on a plant-based diet but still receive about 10% of my calories from animal products (some days I have 0%). I am down from about 75% of calories from animal products. I currently follow a Nutritarian diet as described in the book “Eat to Live” by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. The last 10% is challenging me. Part of it is I like the way it tastes. Part of it is old habits. Part of it is comfort food related. I can live without all of the dairy related animal products (milks, cheeses, eggs, etc). I could even do without steak. I’m having a hard time with chicken and tuna fish. I don’t know what to do. I feel like I’m “waiting” for the next level to arrive, but it also feels like it will never come. On the other hand, it did take me two years to get down to two or three meals a week with “some” animal products. I used to eat animal products 3 times a day, 365 days a year.

I’m 49 years old, about 5’9” and 175 lbs. I lost over 30 lbs switching to a 90% plant-based diet. Has anyone else had a “sticking point” and if so, what worked for you to go “all the way”? Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

Regards,

Joe

Hello to all,

 

I am currently on a plant-based diet but still receive about 10% of my calories from animal products (some days I have 0%). I am down from about 75% of calories from animal products. I currently follow a Nutritarian diet as described in the book “Eat to Live” by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. The last 10% is challenging me. Part of it is I like the way it tastes. Part of it is old habits. Part of it is comfort food related. I can live without all of the dairy related animal products (milks, cheeses, eggs, etc). I could even do without steak. I’m having a hard time with chicken and tuna fish. I don’t know what to do. I feel like I’m “waiting” for the next level to arrive, but it also feels like it will never come. On the other hand, it did take me two years to get down to two or three meals a week with “some” animal products. I used to eat animal products 3 times a day, 365 days a year.

 

I’m 49 years old, about 5’9” and 175 lbs. I lost over 30 lbs switching to a 90% plant-based diet. Has anyone else had a “sticking point” and if so, what worked for you to go “all the way”? Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

 

Regards,

 

Joe

Welcome! I've never heard of tuna fish being one of the hardest things to give up! My guess is you just aren't aware of how many awesome vegan foods there are. When I'm having a great vegan "cheese"cake or milkshake or Indian food, for example, I don't even think about meat or dairy or egg. (And now that I've actually thought about what milk and egg are, I definitely don't want them anyway.) You can find lots of great recipe books online, and I hope there are good vegan-friendly restaurants near you.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah it seems crazy that I crave tuna fish. I don't understand it. I guess I feel that it is less of a dietary problem than other animal products.

I have been eating plant-based for quite awhile, and I don't think it is a lack of appreciation for fruits, vegetables, beans nuts, etc. I eat them everyday. I love eating this way. I am still hoping that soemthing "clicks" and I make the "conscious" decision to eliminate all animal products...

I would look into the chicken and egg industry. Research how they are treated and watch videos on how they are slaughtered. Look into the seafood industry as well. There are so many wasted animals called 'by catch' when catching different types of seafood. If the compassion for animal life does't to get you as it got to me, think about the environmental effects these industries are having on the planet. Failing that, think about what you are potentially ingesting when you are eating chicken and fish. When I decided to cut out meat I decided to mark every meat free day on a calendar, day by day, week by week it added up. Now I'm almost a whole year without any meat and I would never go back. Hopefully this helps

For me I used to crave tuna fish because I think I just wanted the mayo that would always go with it. But Vegenaise is awesome and if you mix it and mash it up with chickpeas, it's similar...

Thank you both for the advice. They are both good ideas. I can go three days without any animal products. Then I get a craving that seems more biological than psychological. I have gone a month without animal products. I was on the auto-immune protocol diet of Dr. Fuhrman for arthritis. No meat or prcessed foods of any kind. The arthritis went into remission. I'm pain free. I'm sure it was the meat.

Thank you both for the advice. They are both good ideas. I can go three days without any animal products. Then I get a craving that seems more biological than psychological. I have gone a month without animal products. I was on the auto-immune protocol diet of Dr. Fuhrman for arthritis. No meat or prcessed foods of any kind. The arthritis went into remission. I'm pain free. I'm sure it was the meat.

You went totally Vegan for a month and got back to eating tuna and chicken ?

All cravings are psychologically based. Your mind is able to control the Biological level aswell. What Biological is the sense of taste (sweet, sour, bitter, etc...). And the need of your body for Macro, Micro Nutrients. Without the psychological level It doesn't really know where you get your carbs/protein/fat from. Maybe you didn't provide enough replacements.

Is there anything you gain from eating tuna and chicken ?

Is there anything you might loose by giving them up ?

Thank you both for the advice. They are both good ideas. I can go three days without any animal products. Then I get a craving that seems more biological than psychological. I have gone a month without animal products. I was on the auto-immune protocol diet of Dr. Fuhrman for arthritis. No meat or prcessed foods of any kind. The arthritis went into remission. I'm pain free. I'm sure it was the meat.

 

You went totally Vegan for a month and got back to eating tuna and chicken ?

All cravings are psychologically based. Your mind is able to control the Biological level aswell. What Biological is the sense of taste (sweet, sour, bitter, etc...). And the need of your body for Macro, Micro Nutrients. Without the psychological level It doesn't really know where you get your carbs/protein/fat from. Maybe you didn't provide enough replacements.

Is there anything you gain from eating tuna and chicken ?

Is there anything you might loose by giving them up ?

I would agree that this sounds like psychologically based cravings. Here's a simple solution: You're craving tuna fish? Treat yourself to a vegan "cheese"cake or milkshake. If you're like most humans, you'll love the treat and forget that tuna fish even existed. (Or a better solution might be to make an ethical commitment to animal rights but I realize that may not be what's driving your desire to be a vegan.)

Thanks for the replies. Yes, it may be psychological. Although sometimes I feel a little "better" physically after having let's say, tuna fish on an english muffin. But that might be psychological as well. It's complicated.

I eat a "nutritarian" diet that is plant-based and nutrient dense. I also use a wide variety of plant-based foods. I stay away from processed foods as much as I can. I wouldn't eat any processed foods as a replacement for the real thing, although I can replace the real thing with a whole food alternative. For example I can have a portable mushroom burger with onions, lettuce and tomato to replace hamburgers. I just found a restaurant by me that makes a great "bean" burger. It's not a frozen disc and is made fresh daily. It doesn't fall out of the bun and stays together nicely.

I don't think it is a poorly designed plant-based diet in general that is making me want some animal products or an unwillingness to replace animal products with quality wholesome alternatives. I have taken Dr. T. Colin Campbells "plant-based nutrition" course given by eCornell (which I highly recommend for anyone interested in plant-based nutrition) so I really don't think I am eating unhealthfully otherwise. I am struggling with the last 10% and hope if I hang around here long enough something will "click". Thanks again.

Thanks for the replies. Yes, it may be psychological. Although sometimes I feel a little "better" physically after having let's say, tuna fish on an english muffin. But that might be psychological as well. It's complicated.

You just described something totally psychological. Your mind sees that you eat tuna and makes your body feel better. As said earlier your body doesn't know you ate tuna. It knows you ate carbs, Protein, fat, vitamin, minerals...

 

I eat a "nutritarian" diet that is plant-based and nutrient dense. I also use a wide variety of plant-based foods. I stay away from processed foods as much as I can. I wouldn't eat any processed foods as a replacement for the real thing, although I can replace the real thing with a whole food alternative. For example I can have a portable mushroom burger with onions, lettuce and tomato to replace hamburgers. I just found a restaurant by me that makes a great "bean" burger. It's not a frozen disc and is made fresh daily. It doesn't fall out of the bun and stays together nicely.

 

I don't think it is a poorly designed plant-based diet in general that is making me want some animal products or an unwillingness to replace animal products with quality wholesome alternatives. I have taken Dr. T. Colin Campbells "plant-based nutrition" course given by eCornell (which I highly recommend for anyone interested in plant-based nutrition) so I really don't think I am eating unhealthfully otherwise. I am struggling with the last 10% and hope if I hang around here long enough something will "click". Thanks again.

I didn't say you have a poorly designed nutrition. Maybe it's a great nutrition. The only reason you are still eating tuna and chicken is cause your subconscious mind probably thinks there is something positive for you for keeping that habit of eating tuna and chicken. And If you stop it you might loose something positive that it gives you. Maybe it's even a limiting belief about Vegan Nutrition.

What you need to do is to find out if there is anything positive you gain from keeping that habit ?

And next step would be to find out what can you eat or do in order to satisfy that need in a different way.

Good points. I think those are legitimate possibilities. A part of me feels that humans have always consumed "some" amount of animal products. But certainly not to the excess of todays standard American diet. And todays methods of providing animal products for consumption are of great concern. I don't approve of the way it is done.

Then there is the nutrition aspect of it. B12 from a pill is not the same as B12 from animal products. So I think I am still eating small amounts of animal products for the insurance of the B12 that comes from a source we have been getting it from forever. I think if I can convince myself that this is not a valid concern, it could bring me closer to saying "What am I waiting for? No more animal products".

So that is something I have to clear up. I think subconsciously my concern is that I might be depriving myself of a "required nutrient" in it's "natural state"....

Good points. I think those are legitimate possibilities. A part of me feels that humans have always consumed "some" amount of animal products. But certainly not to the excess of todays standard American diet. And todays methods of providing animal products for consumption are of great concern. I don't approve of the way it is done.

 

Then there is the nutrition aspect of it. B12 from a pill is not the same as B12 from animal products. So I think I am still eating small amounts of animal products for the insurance of the B12 that comes from a source we have been getting it from forever. I think if I can convince myself that this is not a valid concern, it could bring me closer to saying "What am I waiting for? No more animal products".

 

So that is something I have to clear up. I think subconsciously my concern is that I might be depriving myself of a "required nutrient" in it's "natural state"....

There's nothing wrong with vegan sources of B12. (BTW, there's good evidence, as you may know, that B12 used to be available naturally in soil and in plant based foods.) All that matters in the end is your body's B12 level. Mine is actually slight above normal (which is not a problem).

Yes, perhaps I should start making a list of B12 sources. I understand that there is B12 in algae, but I don't know about its bioavailability... and yes, i understand that in the "ol days" we used to get B12 from soil that was still attached to vegetation. I didn't understand it to mean that the plants absorbed the B12 and then the B12 was transferred to whoever ate the plant. Is this so?

Where do wild animals get their B12? Is it an essential nutrient for them or is it a non-essential nutrient for them? Do they produce it like we produce cholsterol? Do they even need it? Sorry for the silly questions but I am trying to understand this B12 issue.

Welcome to the group!

All the best!

Good points. I think those are legitimate possibilities. A part of me feels that humans have always consumed "some" amount of animal products. But certainly not to the excess of todays standard American diet. And todays methods of providing animal products for consumption are of great concern. I don't approve of the way it is done.

 

Then there is the nutrition aspect of it. B12 from a pill is not the same as B12 from animal products. So I think I am still eating small amounts of animal products for the insurance of the B12 that comes from a source we have been getting it from forever. I think if I can convince myself that this is not a valid concern, it could bring me closer to saying "What am I waiting for? No more animal products".

 

So that is something I have to clear up. I think subconsciously my concern is that I might be depriving myself of a "required nutrient" in it's "natural state"....

You just exposed your limiting belief that making you keep that 10% habit. Your subconscious mind thinks "you need B12 from animal source and that humans always consumed some animal Products".

So the way to break a limiting belief: First step would be to create doubts in that belief. Second step would be to create a new belief and reinforce it with personal experience.

Why does it matter to you if humans consumed some animal products? Maybe they did but very rarely. Just think about the energy investment needed for hunting. There are many theories that say hunter gatherers were mostly gatherers. And after the beginning of the agriculture era they were be able to grow lots of food and store it so why waste time on hunting. Also there are some evidences for populations that were totally Vegan and lived without Animal Sources. There is lots of info you can find about this online.

Animal products today are far apart from being Natural. There is lots of pollution in our seas. And fish are full of heavy metals like mercury. animals eat lots antibiotics and who knows what with all the GMO.

Is it really so natural getting B12 from animals? Why do you think so cause that's what they tell you?

animals are NOT producing B12. It's produced by Bacteria. It just that animals eat foods that are contaminated with it. Humans today are far from their "Natural state". Humans in the past didn't live in houses, didn't eat processed food, didn't sit in front of a computer, didn't watch TV, did get lots of sun, did lots of physical activity... you get the point.

Before the sterility era we were living closer to the ground just like animals. So that's how we got our B12. So to be really natural is to go back to living in a tent without washing your hands.

I can point you to some online links if you need more info.

One last thing, at the end its all a matter of your own choice and experience. I don't think you can know for 100% what happened in the past.

Yes, perhaps I should start making a list of B12 sources. I understand that there is B12 in algae, but I don't know about its bioavailability... and yes, i understand that in the "ol days" we used to get B12 from soil that was still attached to vegetation. I didn't understand it to mean that the plants absorbed the B12 and then the B12 was transferred to whoever ate the plant. Is this so?

 

Where do wild animals get their B12? Is it an essential nutrient for them or is it a non-essential nutrient for them? Do they produce it like we produce cholsterol? Do they even need it? Sorry for the silly questions but I am trying to understand this B12 issue.

I think B12 grew in bacteria *on* the plants but I'm not certain that that's how it worked.

You may also find this book helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Freak-Being-Non-Vegan-World/dp/1604860154/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316018344&sr=8-1

Thank you for the replies. I have been trying to create a doubt about the "B12 must come from animal products" issue belief since I started exploring plant-based diets. I have managed to find that everything a human needs can be obtained “naturally” from fruits, vegetables, beans and nuts - except B12. It is an essential nutrient for humans so I am trying to figure out how we maintained a supply of B12 before the advent of vitamin supplements. The answer always seems to come full circle back to animal products. Of course, today it is a very different type of food supply of animal products than it was 100 years ago. Today these food sources are polluted with steroids, antibiotics, preservatives, etc and are produced in a way that should bring great shame to humans.

In any event, these are my questions so far:

1. If we get our B12 from animals, where do they get their B12 from? In other words, the animals we get our B12 from are mostly vegetarian ie; cows, pigs, chickens, etc. Are they getting it from vegetation or do their bodies produce B12?

2. If they are getting it from vegetation, why can’t we get it from vegetation, especially being on a plant-based diet?

And further, with respect to number 1 above, it’s interesting that most humans are not getting B12 from animals that are meat eaters i.e. lions and tigers, but rather from animals that are vegetarians/vegans. It’s all very thought provoking and interesting. I don’t know what it all means.

Thanks for the replies. And yes, I'll take any links you have that can shed light on this.

Joe

Bonn1997, I'll put that on my "to read" list... Thanks

Thank you for the replies. I have been trying to create a doubt about the "B12 must come from animal products" issue belief since I started exploring plant-based diets. I have managed to find that everything a human needs can be obtained “naturally” from fruits, vegetables, beans and nuts - except B12. It is an essential nutrient for humans so I am trying to figure out how we maintained a supply of B12 before the advent of vitamin supplements. The answer always seems to come full circle back to animal products. Of course, today it is a very different type of food supply of animal products than it was 100 years ago. Today these food sources are polluted with steroids, antibiotics, preservatives, etc and are produced in a way that should bring great shame to humans.

 

In any event, these are my questions so far:

 

1. If we get our B12 from animals, where do they get their B12 from? In other words, the animals we get our B12 from are mostly vegetarian ie; cows, pigs, chickens, etc. Are they getting it from vegetation or do their bodies produce B12?

 

2. If they are getting it from vegetation, why can’t we get it from vegetation, especially being on a plant-based diet?

 

And further, with respect to number 1 above, it’s interesting that most humans are not getting B12 from animals that are meat eaters i.e. lions and tigers, but rather from animals that are vegetarians/vegans. It’s all very thought provoking and interesting. I don’t know what it all means.

 

Thanks for the replies. And yes, I'll take any links you have that can shed light on this.

 

Joe

This is an issue I've lost interest in since vegan forms of B12 are highly available. That said, I'm sure you can find lots of information quickly with a Google search. PETA, Vegan Outreach, Compassion over Killing, and many other groups have FAQ sections. Animal Liberation Front has a bad reputation in many circles but they have a gigantic FAQ section that I'd definitely expect would address this issue. You might want to look at their whole FAQ section actually.

Thanks I'll take a look...

I'm a newbie here! It's so great to be here..