Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

VeganEssentials, here's my thoughts on the B12 deficiency and why I don't like depending on supplements and why it will never 'catch' me.
By the way, I have always liked your posts (or the ones I can think of) and considered them to be independent and thoughtful opinions so I am glad we have the opportunity to discuss.
1. (A priori; cannot be scientifically proven; based on logic/observations/personal experience) I consider nature made us perfect. Nature made us vegans. Everything else is deviation from our natural environment. Carnivores exist, they have a place in this world, they are a part of the circle of life but we humans simply do not need to eat meat. Like pigs and many other animals, we have the opportunity to be omnivores but this is only a chance for us to survive in harsh conditions (scarcity of food). Harsh conditions are not our natural state of living but a deviation that humanity has been living in for the past several millenia (our perfect environment being something like Avatar).
2. As vegans and as beautiful beings we were designed to interact with our environment like all other beings. We have sight, taste, hearing, touch, etc - these are the guidelines that nature left us. When all these are in harmony, we also get what people call 'the 6th sense'.
3. When we deviate from our environment, we face the consequences.
4. B12 deficiency exists! B12 is produced by bacteria found in the small intestine and in the soil (among other places).
5. B12 deficiency is one of the natural consequences of us deviating from our natural environment. As Dr. Douglas Graham says, in nature we do not eat very clean food so B12 inevitably gets into our bodies. Also, in nature there are no pesticides and insecticides which kill the bacteria producing B12 in the soil. As Dr. McDougall (I think) said, B12 deficiency is the bad side of good hygiene.
6. Our bodies produce B12. Whether we can use it or not is debatable (Reading all the articles that 2097 posted is on my todo list. Thank you, 2097).
7. I interact with the environment a lot, for example I happen to eat wild berries from time to time (like, really wild ones, from the mountains) and I do not depend on the supermarket for food. Therefore I am confident I will not get any B12 deficiency (which I have not experienced so far).
8. B12 deficiency is common among meat eaters (omnivores) as well.
9. I am quite sure there are many other negative effects (may be not even diagnosed yet) associated with our deviation from our natural state. Therefore, as hard as it is, I try to keep as close as possible to this natural state. I am fully aware that I lack many things and I cannot care about them all but B12 is certainly not one of them (well a V6 still is ).
So, yes, if someone wants to be on the safe side and take supplements, sure! I myself am confident that I do not need them. Selling supplements is among my activities (Yeah, I do many things and they earn some money which allow me to practice the 80/10/10 from time to time) and I will say once again that I have learned not to underestimate the benefits associated with them and not to overestimate the scare associated with not taking them (i.e. that's an aftermarket paranoia which the supplement/pharmaceutical companies don't even cause directly. Just people fall for it and the companies don't mind it, except for swine flu hoaxes and the likes of them).
There's a natural explanation of everything. For example, I once wanted to increase my zinc consumption. Pumpkin seeds are very rich in zinc. However, most of the soil in Turkey and China is very poor in zinc. If I did not know that second part, I'd buy Turkish pumpkin seeds (because they are on the market), get no effect and then fall into a cognitive dissonance blaming who knows what.
The 80/10/10 diet gives a logical explanation of B12 deficiency and a good way of overwhelming it. If some people don't like it, good, it's a book, not something compulsory anyway. And critical thinking is a sign of free will anyway (assuming that free will is something good ).
lol, el_flaco:))

Well, good luck with the experiment, 2097 I'd like to hear about the results. Also the long topic you posted on B12 is still on my todo list.

I didn't say you were specifically the only one regarding B-12, there were others involved in saying it was non-essential to worry about, then there was talk of protein, etc., so it is a complete mess now. You just happened to have an opening to take a poke at based on your comments regarding "wisdom" that fit into all of this, so it worked well with making an example of why I don't necessarily consider it wise for ANYONE to not consider the implications of deficiency, not just targeted at you specifically.





I didn't say you've ever uttered that phrase, but it has been said in the past where others have given their reason for not caring about supplementation, which is more faith-based than anything else. This attutide on this board can be traced back many years, it's nothing new here, and if you dig through old threads, you'll see it. Heck, someone even once claimed that being raw made one "disease proof" and got upset when they were slammed for spouting nonsense. Believe me, I will be sure to quote your name specifically if I wish to make an example of a statement. These quotes were generalizations of an attitude, not of one specific person's posts.



And that is fine. But, a theory does need to be proven to a great degree to be accepted as having some truth. I personally think that if these theories mean so much to you to prove in the way of them being remotely correct, you should consider taking a sceintific approach and work to study them in the real world over a period of time. I would have a lot more respect if the theories would be worked toward to prove something vs. simply stating them and looking for acceptance without anything to back them up. I can say "the world revolves around me" and call it a theory that I will defend, but at some point, people lose interest and I lose credibility if I can't back it up.



And you know this due to the exceptional wisdom that you have proclaimed? Sorry, couldn't resist that one.



You're REALLY hung up on trying to make us all believe in your wisdom. Something tells me that the truly wise don't need to seek constant affirmation of their personal wisdom, rather, people will seek them out if it is true. And the fact that we're all still here talking the same game over and over is certainly not doing anything to make any of us look remotely wise...

@ VeganEssentials

I hear the strength of your conviction regarding your opinion that each person responds differently to diets. I and many other 811rvs tend to disagree. We, humans, are all built anatomically and physiologically similar. Thereby, we all thrive under similar conditions. Our diet is species specific. Just as all lions are carnivores, all elephants are herbivores, and all cows eat grass. We, humans, have a specific diet that our body is designed to thrive on.

Until someone actually puts forth a conjecture that holds some water, I will be sticking with the 811rv diet and keep feeling the best I've ever felt. =)

rawsomehealth -

You're more than welcome to disagree, that's entirely fine. However, I know that there's no way 80/10/10 would work for me based on past experiments, therefore, its is not my optimal diet. If it is not my optimal diet based on what I know about my own body, it cannot be optimal for each and every person, that's the way things work in the real world. In order for it to be optimal for all humans, there'd have to be enough science and general concensus among people to show that it's the best for all, and there's nothing to show that at this point. People can tell me what they THINK I'd do well on, I've tried dozens of diet variations over the years, high carbs and low protein make me feel like I'm hours away from death. A "perfect" diet would not allow for that to happen to me, so you have to understand why I will continue to say it's not ideal for everyone. I've said it multiple times in these discussions, if YOU feel great on the diet, then it may be great for you, but there's no evidence it's ideal for all people because there's enough of us who know we cannot thrive on it. A diet that's suited for one's body is not going to make them feel terrible, so there's nothing that can be said to show that 80/10/10 would ever be feasible for me (not even taking into account the fact that low protein is completely contradictory to my goals of getting larger/stronger).

I simply can't say anything else about it. If you feel it's best for you, then be my guest to do it. To say it's best for everyone is incorrect and devoid of facts to prove it, just as I won't say my diet is best for everyone because I'd be flat-out wrong. I don't say what I do about 80/10/10 out of fear or misunderstanding, I say it because people are different and no single diet suits the entire populace without fault. Nobody can prove a perfect diet, so to me, stating such a thing puts a massive hole in the credibility of anyone promoting something they claim to be perfect for all.

Best of luck with whatever you choose, I just know it's a crappy diet for me and many others, but I don't seem to be able to change your mind on this despite it being fact, so that's the last I'll post on this.

V.E.: I agree. I thought I was going to die on it. I love the concept and it sounds like it should work but I could not even get out of bed much less train. Maybe I wasn't eating enough, I don't know. But I got down as much as I could. I even had to give up training just to make it through a day on that plan. It really was not for me. Although I wish it was. Honestly I have never been that sick on any diet plan. I made it almost 2 weeks and then promised my body I would never do that again to it.

Some of us just weren't meant for such things, Paige. It's always worth trying something new, but any diet that makes me feel like I need to prepare my last will and testament is obviously not what I should be on, and same goes for pretty much everyone.

If someone feels great on 80/10/10, awesome, but I don't have any desire to feel miserable every waking moment, and that's all I'd get out of it, not "optimal health" by any means!

I'm not around here as often as I used to be so I'm bumping this old thread here, particularly to RE-EMPHASIZE everything Vegan Essentials (Ryan) said and add a bit to it.

I am currently following a Vegan Cut Diet to prepare for a photo shoot. It is not fun, I hate it... and SOMETIMES I experience low energy. It's something extreme intended for a short period of time to ellicit a specific physique result, but I feel its ALOT healthier on it than I would on 80/10/10. I'm comparing the two because they are both extremes IMO, not intended to live on. Point it, the higher protein, higher fat is ridding my body of excess fat but I still have enough energy to endure tough workouts and long cardio sessions. I do look forward to carb refeed day each week though.

Anyone considering following this, I want you to consider this... Do you want to look young, healthy and vibrant??? Following a diet with this low in fat content is very bad for your skin and over time your skin will age faster. A good dose of healthy fats throughout the day are ESSENTIAL for the health of your skin. Even more important as we age! Your body needs FATS! Healthy fats are also great for fat loss!

I just had my 43rd birthday. My skin looks awesome and I'm humbly proud of this, but it wouldn't if I was eating 10% fat for the past few years. I would start to look my age on that type of plan. I firmly believe that a Vegan diet can start to age you backwards WHEN DONE PROPERLY (healthy fats, healthy amount of protein, fruits, veggies, legumes and small quantities of grains)

agreed, the body cannot sustain on just fruit alone, sorry that's just my belief. there's no protein+fat to hold onto.

Pathetic: bumping a thread you don't believe in, to trash it some more???

And don't you fools know by now - that'll only bring out the 811rs, and our passion, to promote it more.

AND, it's sad that - in 5 pages - detox wasn't agreed to be the obvious problem for Paige(and puffy, bloated VE). But this isn't a health forum.

(Yea, I'm stirred up; it's really called for. It's frustrating to see people (not to mention; vegans) behaving this way). OK, I'm cool now....


The 811 diet is not just fruit. Common mis-conception(there's a LOT of those). Also, everything has fat and protein. Nature wouldn't make that mistake

I'm now at 2 years 4 months eating the natural human diet: 80/10/10 (for 7 months it's been 90/5/5, and I look fabulous; not a wrinkle in sight at age 43)

...and getting stronger on low-protein(all I need, I conclude. That's real life. 811rs are Real living proof. And like I said here 2 years ago: "You four keep trying to destroy 811, but you can't stop this!!"

Oh, NWV, why take a cheap shot on a photo of myself from my days as a 280 lb. bloated man and attempt to use it to your advantage to prove something? I didn't even chime back in when this was re-posted (because I don't really care about 80/10/10, but will happily assist in squashing misinformation about it being superior in all forms to other diets), but apparently, you've got some hurt feelings that just won't subside, otherwise, you wouldn't be back to defend a diet that sucks for a lot of people (yep, I said it!) And, for the record, I believe Melissa / Veggieprincess posted her reply as she hasn't been around in a long time, does that mean she's not entitled to have an opinion if it doesn't mesh with yours?

Like I say, when I see real size and real strength from someone who has been doing 80/10/10 for years on end, I'll give it some more credit. Sadly, all I've seen so far are lots of small-sized individuals who seem to believe that having mediocre levels of muscle mass on a lean build means they're looking "strong" or "fit". Whenever the challenge gets put up to see the accomplishments of someone who has gone above and beyond what would be expected on the diet, I get the same crickets chirping in the background. Not that I expect anything else, of course, but I keep asking anyway, just because I know nobody is ready to prove me wrong yet. And please, no more videos of Mr. Graham as "proof", I've seen them, and it's not adequate.

Just goes to show, if your diet is awesome, then lead by example and if it's great, someday people will give a hoot and come to you seeking advice. Trying to "prove" the validity over and over again by saying that anyone who disagrees is a "fool" (your term used above) only makes the whole thing look sad and pathetic.

Not going to bother with this one any longer, this one's dead and buried as far as I'm concerned. If the diet is so flawless and awesomely perfect, it can stand on its own two feet and defend itself via hard data and countless examples of its greatness, but so far, that hasn't happened. Funny how people tend to get REALLY defensive over 80/10/10, but that's most likely because there's not enough evidence to prove its superiority, so it relies on the highly emotional who abide by it to come to the rescue and defend its honor.

One more time, let's say it all together - THERE IS NO PERFECT DIET FOR ALL PEOPLE. NOT EVERYONE WILL ADAPT TO A SINGLE DIET THE SAME AND ACHIEVE OPTIMAL RESULTS. It's not that tough to understand....

Agreed, and the 811 diet is sup-optimal for building mass for 90% of the population. Then again, that's not what it exists for. It exists to for endurance athletes who want a constant source of working energy, and who also love to constantly watch their fat and protein intakes to make sure they are avoiding wasting disease.

Fallen:

I think you need to re edit the post...I am confused by it. what is "avoiding wasting disease"

Wasting is when muscle and fat tissue 'waste' away, due to many different possible factors, one being diet....

edit