Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Wat do people tink of bee pollen? I read somewhere about it having great performance enhancing qualities as well as being extremely nutricious. Also read that it was the 'secret' of soviet olympic athletes and such...

Any thoughts?

You won't find much (if any) support for bee products on a vegan board such as this one Plenty of discussions around here about the ethics of veganism in relation to bee products, just in case you haven't seen the info before.

As for the "secret of the Soviets", it would definitely not be bee pollen - I believe someone forgot to mention wherever you read that statement that it was much more likely to have been injectible testosterone than anything natural!

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

Understandable... was just in a david wolfe book. Seems a lot of raw /vegan writers advocate its use.. Interesting.

Ah, once you mentioned David Wolfe, that puts it all togther (pretty well anything he recommends to people, he sells/has sold at one point, it's all pretty well just self and business promotion made under the guise of being some sort of "raw foods wisdom"). I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt - we haven't talked about Wolfe here much in a long time, but let's just say he's left a bad taste in the mouths of many over the years

Some of the raw folk who call themselves vegan turn the other way regarding honey, but technically, honey is not and will not be vegan under any consideration, it's still taking that which the bees create for themselves and using it for our own purposes (often killing many bees in the process of gathering the honey), so that's why I noted that you won't find much for support for bee products here.

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

Yes, I got a similar vibe from David Wolfe... I got carried away with the raw cacao at one point and started getting sick from it. Gabriel Cousens is another I feel something is not quite right ( for me ) ...

I appreciate your perspective on Bee Pollen. I know there are more humane ways to cultibate bees that is more symbiotic... Biodynamics and such. Still, honey makes me have skin issues so I don't use much of it..

Do you recommend any information on raw/vegan diets for weight lifting? I have read on here a lot of posts by gorilla and am intrigued though find a diet of just fruit and greens and an occassional almond leaves me feeling weak and totally lacking in the fabled raw food energy. FInd I eat a lot of fruit but lots of hemp, avocados, seed butters, etc.

I am a bit concerend about these diets that emphasize exotic superfoods over fresh, local fair...

There have been a LOT of discussions over the years here regarding being raw and lifting, the general concensus that most have come to (including quite a few formerly 100% raw vegan members here) was that being 100% raw is not the best route for maximum size and strength gains. Not that you couldn't still make some great progress training hard and eating completely raw, but it tends to favor better results for endurance athletes over strength athletes.

Some of the raw lifting "gurus" that proclaimed their supposedly exceptional results from it (like Stephen Arlin aka Thor Bazler and former member "Jericho Sunfire") were never proven to have been accomplished while being 100% raw; Jericho seemed to have gained all his quality mass prior to going raw back when he first showed up here, Thor was still riding the crest of his supposed accomplishments when photos surfaced of him looking like he had gaind 100 lbs. of pure fat over what he was still portraying as his previous "fit and strong" image. That aside, it all depends on what you want out of lifting. If, for example, you were 150 lbs. today and looking to one day hit 200 lbs. ripped and strong as heck, I don't honestly think such a feat could be done 100% raw (or, that it would be a LOT more challenging than if you incorporate some cooked food and supplements) since I've never seen anyone come close to such an accomplishment, and nobody has really shown it by example of proof. However, for those who just want to add a fair amount of lean mass, maybe 10-20 lbs. over a few years and build reasonably decent strength, I don't see why it couldn't be possible. But, it certainly is highly unlikely to be as easy or convenient to gain a lot on a 100% raw diet while avoiding anything cooked or processed in any way as it is when you incorporate at least SOME cooked foods and processed items (I'm including protein powders when I say "processed"). But, as I said, it all depends on your goals and how you truly want to eat, and where you're starting in contrast to where you want to end up makes a big difference. It's a lot easier to maintain on a change to raw for some than it is to gain, so if you're reaching for the stars, you might find the diet to slow you down. On the other hand, if you're going for something reasonable, then 100% raw may work out just fine.

Regarding the exotic superfoods, like I said before, always consider the source - many of the "gurus" make their living from selling you overpriced foods they want to make you believe are essentials, when lots of raw folks do just fine without them. I think that once you take the quasi-religious aspect out of raw and all the talk about energies and what-not, it becomes a lot easier to see the diet for what it is. Too many get trapped in the rantings of people who claim experise, but have no official training, education or hands-on experience in that which they preach about. For example, David Wolfe is NOT a physician, does not have a degree in nutrition, and is not someone I'd trust for any serious advice on any condition. This is not to discredit the fact that a raw diet can definitely be healthy for many people and change their bodies for the better. But rather, that many of the people who are the face of the movement who are making strong medical claims have ZERO basis in anything factual, moreso that they'd like to ensure people keep buying their overpriced products by making astounding claims of what they can do for you.

If you search through the board's history here, you'll find discussions going back to the start of things dealing with raw vs. cooked and training, sometimes things got pretty heated (raw pun intended ), but we all tend to get a bit emotional defending our stances here from time to time

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

I think as with anything it's all about balance. When it comes to "superfoods" I maybe do two tablespoons of cacao and thats about it. Too much of anything is bad.

I'm not one to avoid honey but I don't actively seek it.

I can see the case for bee pollen as the list of plants who require it is much bigger than I ever thought ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... ed_by_bees ) .

I can also see an argument for it on a board like this as the pollens original source is also from those same plants. Not that I will be running out to buy some but it's interesting to read up on.

On a side note I read up on the nutritional value of insects the other day out of curiosity, no cholestoral, some have lots of iron and protein and low in fat. Wonder if we'll see a bugeatingbodybuilding.com one day. Ha! I hope not but apparently bug eating is big outside of North America.

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- Think Forward, Be Concerned!

@ForwardConcern - I was reading somewhere that when you forage for greens, don't wash them and end up eating random insects that it can provide a good bit of B12. Not sure how muc exactly but was an interesting thought as I find B12 supplementation to be wise but definitely seems there must be a natural alternative. I work on an organic farm and collect a lot of my greens and munc on lots of stuff as I work... Also, the dust from the earth and air also has lots of minerals... Not sure how wise such a practice would be with supermarket bought 'organic' foods as I am finding much of their producers are employing quite liberal interpretations of the concept plus the stores frequently mist them with various solutions and then with all the breathing going on... I dunno, I find the modern fixation on hand sanitizers and strilization to be absurd but still not quite the same as eating a fresh leaf of kale with the plant in the field...

@VeganEssentials - Thank you again for your thoughts. Been really nice coming on here and having all this information and support. For most of my years as a vegetarian I have had very little support and very few other veg friends. Surrounded by mostly people offering me fleshfoods and perpetually challenging my beliefs/practices. Can be very frustrating but also a great opportunity to effect change.

Back when I was in college I was mostly veg but still eating dairy and fish.. worked out and ran and did yoga and biked and climbed and stuff I was 6'2" and around 190 and very strong and athletic and liked how I looked and such. Several years later I got into a relationship with a total couch potato and though i still was fairly active I was also drinking and smoking a lot of pot and getting lazy. I met a group of raw vegans and really got into that, did lots of fasts and cleanses and was really healing on a lot of levels... BUT I got much weaker lost over 20 lbs and feel I created a LOT of food anxiety as I became something of a hyperchondriac regarding gluten, soy, nuts, nightshades, etc. I was really influenced by Gabriel Cousens and David Wolfe and though I adhered like a zealot I feel I was really deteriorating.


I realy, really prefer being strong and having tons of energy and looking good and have found that since diversifying my diet especially adding a LOT more proteing (mostly sun warrior so far) tat I feel MUC better. I respect these people who can feel amazing on just fruit, air and some almonds but it is clear that my needs are very different..

Seems wen i type too muc te screen starts auto scrolling in a most irritating way... Anyway, I fear after years of trying to live off of the sort of diet dr cousens promotes (barely any food, high fat, etc) I found my body was bony, a bit flabby, weak, tired, etc. NOT my ideal. No spectacuar mental clarity either really! Just easily fatigued really. Was still running a lot and doing lots of yoga but just not making much progress with either. I am sure protein and calories were the big missing links!

So now I am lifting about 5 times a week, doing yoga a few times a week, riding my bike and will start running again once this sprained ankle is ready (been 6 weeks!). I am logging my progress and am getting stronger pretty fast. Mostly following the basic split plan Robert outlined in his book thoug constantly researching new stuff and customizing. Main focus is on compound stuff like squats, deadlifts, bench, etc but also flirting with plyometrics and fond of using kettlebells and medicine balls in place of dumbbels for things like shoulder presses and lateral raises. It's fun.

One question though. Do you have a favorite protein supplement? As I said I have been using Sun Warrior for awhile but Vega seems quite popular and seems wise to diversify a bit. It is great some need so little protein but I notice that without it I feel very weak during workouts. I suppose the idea of doing cardio on an empty stomach is one thing but i tried just having a green smoothie with kale, apple and banana yesterday before squats, leg presses, hack squats etc and felt VERY weak not even a quarter of the way through.. I usually have a drink with two bananas, 2 scoops of sun warrior, 3 tbls of hemp, 1 tbls flax, carob, etc and have strong energy for at least 90 minutes of any activity...

Ok, thank you again and be well!!!

You're quite welcome, greenwizard777 - we're always happy to have new people on board, and you'll find plenty of support here any time you need it. Believe me, when I went vegan all I heard was "You're going to get too skinny, you won't be strong, etc.", but I knew better and did what I could to prove to myself the validity of what I was doing to prove them incorrect. Still, it's hard to stay focused when everyone tells you that you're doing things incorrectly and when they keep harping on you about doing things you own way. That's what places like this are for!

Much of my gripe with the raw "gurus" is that many seem to insist that diets that can be pretty radical are suitable for EVERYONE, which is completely untrue and is crazy for people to infer. It's unfortunate, as sometimes I hear from people who post here and elsewhere as to how terrible they feel after making a change to a specific raw diet that someone proclaimed to be "best", only for them to feel terrible on it and essentially lower their standard of health in pursuit of optimal health. That's why my mantra is always that no two people are the same, and while we have many physiological similarities that are general (such as, it should be possible for everyone to go vegan and have exceptional health), sometimes specific niche diets that are tied to someone's book/products/quest for fame aren't the best option for many people. I've seen plenty of instances of people who tried something with a certain guru's raw plan that left them weak, with higher bodyfat than when they started (and much less muscle and overall energy), poor hygiene that affected their health (the infamous "I don't need to brush my teeth any longer after going raw" grey oral discoloration I've encountered before), and so forth. If one's body doesn't want to adapt to a diet, no matter how wonderful it claims to be, then it obviously is a flaw in the diet being universally good for all, not that the person is "doing it wrong" as some followers will accuse people of. But anyway, that's getting off track, and again, I do belive that 100% raw diets can be great for a lot of people, but just not necessarily every person, and of course, physical goals can factor into that as well.

As far as a favorite protein supplement, I've always been a big Vega fan, and have used that for the bulk of my added protein over the past few years. I occasionally use some of the NitroFusion protein (not often, but here and there for variety). I do like Sun Warrior products, but prefer the taste of berry flavor Vega, chocolate Vega Sport and chocolate NitroFusion more, so I gravitate toward those based on tasted and that they have a better spectrum of proteins. Of course, the new Warrior Food protein by Sun Warrior is pretty good and has a nice blending of proteins, so I may start incorporating more of that into my diet before long, too. I, too, find that making sure I get plenty of protein in prior to workouts has a very positive effect on my training, if I skimp on it and end up overloading on carbohydrates, I feel sluggish and worn out early on, so protein is essential for me and how I train.

Hope that the training goes well for you, and welcome to the board!

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous