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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:17 pm 
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We are equipped to yes, I do not disagree with that at all.
We ate meat throughout our evolution. Yes, pretty much proven.
People should be allowed to eat meat or not eat meat without ridicule or aggression against them. Yes, I agree with that.

As my original post suggests, I don't have a problem with "meat". It's the way we get it these days I have a problem with. If it changed would I change? Very much doubt it.

However, we wont really get the world to stop eating meat, in my opinion it's a futile exercise. Instead, I think we should be campaigning for ethical meat OR alternatives such as synthetic meat.

Just my opinion. You have your own and you're entitled to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:51 pm 
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My whole family hunts. I'm the only vegan in the family and I do it simply for health reasons. I was diabetic before I started eating vegan, and now I'm not. I have no problem going hunting because anything I kill will get eaten by my family. I don't bow hunt even though I am an Ojibwa, because I think bowhunting is barbaric. If you're going to kill something, do it quickly. I also fish, just because I really love it. We bass fish and we practice catch and release. Veganism is not a religion to me, it's a health choice. I think you're going to run into a lot of vegans like me because of Dr. Neal Barnard.


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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:41 pm 
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blabbate wrote:
Richard wrote:
blabbate wrote:
A couple of things. First, we have plenty common with carnivores. Almost as much as we do herbivores. For example, our teeth are equipped for both, with sharp canines for tearing into meat and flat molars for grinding plants. Some of our intestinal fauna is much more effective on animal proteins than on vegetable matter, and vice versa. Our intestinal length is longer than most carnivores, but shorter than most herbivores. We're unable to digest cellulose. We have a relatively streamlined digestive tract compared to herbivores, but not quite as much as true carnivores. We are biologically equipped to be omnivores.


There are tonnes of those charts available which show the similarities between us and herbivores, and the differences we have with carnivores. Is the information in those tables incorrect?

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp10 ... -Not-C.jpg

There are all kinds of those tables, that's just the first one I came across.

Incorrect, simplified, or dishonest, yes. The information is overly generalized, and some of it is simply wrong. None of it is sourced. How can you trust a table that says the human small intestine is 10 to 11 times body length? The small intestine averages 23 feet long. You can do the math yourself.

They also cherry-pick their comparisons. You could easily add the ability to digest cellulose as a criterion, but you'd never see that in one of these charts.


Thanks for that information, we can bin those comparison charts in that case. I wonder where they got those numbers from? Seems ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:47 pm 
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I think this topic kinda went off on one but that's cool.

I don't know, every so often, more like every other day I get someone who either makes a negative comment about my veganism or just comes out and straight up tells me I'm wrong, what I'm doing is wrong and so on and they either have no evidence or spout out spurious "evidence". I even had a doctor (not mine, just a random one) online laugh at me and tell me how much of an idiot I was.

Really gets on your nerves.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:11 pm 
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mythil wrote:
I think this topic kinda went off on one but that's cool.

I don't know, every so often, more like every other day I get someone who either makes a negative comment about my veganism or just comes out and straight up tells me I'm wrong, what I'm doing is wrong and so on and they either have no evidence or spout out spurious "evidence". I even had a doctor (not mine, just a random one) online laugh at me and tell me how much of an idiot I was.

Really gets on your nerves.


mythil, as they say, "The best revenge is living well." You'll outlive them and look and feel better doin' it. They won't be laughing then. Just surround yourself with hot, funny vegans in the meantime. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:05 am 
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mythil wrote:
We are equipped to yes, I do not disagree with that at all.
We ate meat throughout our evolution. Yes, pretty much proven.
People should be allowed to eat meat or not eat meat without ridicule or aggression against them. Yes, I agree with that.

As my original post suggests, I don't have a problem with "meat". It's the way we get it these days I have a problem with. If it changed would I change? Very much doubt it.

However, we wont really get the world to stop eating meat, in my opinion it's a futile exercise. Instead, I think we should be campaigning for ethical meat OR alternatives such as synthetic meat.

Just my opinion. You have your own and you're entitled to it.


I don't really think there is a need to ridicule meat-eaters, or even show aggression towards them. But that's not the same as forming a logical explanation of why they are wrong to do what they do. I am positive towards meat-eaters, and don't treat them negatively. If they talk to me about veganism, I explain to them why I am vegan, not why they are wrong - and certainly don't insult them. But fundamentally - they are wrong.

In addition, having the opinion that eating meat is wrong is not the same as attempting to get everyone to stop eating meat. I know it is futile, even if it would be a good thing. That is out of my hands, I can only deal with those around me and try to do what I can, in a positive way.

Can you outline to me why there isn't a problem with killing an animal? Do you think there is a problem with killing a human? I just want to underline that there is no need to be confrontational on the subject - to me it is a matter of logic. Taking a life is intrinsically wrong, because it is halting the life of an individual without their consent - regardless of the suffering caused before the death.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:53 am 
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Richard wrote:
mythil wrote:
We are equipped to yes, I do not disagree with that at all.
We ate meat throughout our evolution. Yes, pretty much proven.
People should be allowed to eat meat or not eat meat without ridicule or aggression against them. Yes, I agree with that.

As my original post suggests, I don't have a problem with "meat". It's the way we get it these days I have a problem with. If it changed would I change? Very much doubt it.

However, we wont really get the world to stop eating meat, in my opinion it's a futile exercise. Instead, I think we should be campaigning for ethical meat OR alternatives such as synthetic meat.

Just my opinion. You have your own and you're entitled to it.


I don't really think there is a need to ridicule meat-eaters, or even show aggression towards them. But that's not the same as forming a logical explanation of why they are wrong to do what they do. I am positive towards meat-eaters, and don't treat them negatively. If they talk to me about veganism, I explain to them why I am vegan, not why they are wrong - and certainly don't insult them. But fundamentally - they are wrong.

In addition, having the opinion that eating meat is wrong is not the same as attempting to get everyone to stop eating meat. I know it is futile, even if it would be a good thing. That is out of my hands, I can only deal with those around me and try to do what I can, in a positive way.

Can you outline to me why there isn't a problem with killing an animal? Do you think there is a problem with killing a human? I just want to underline that there is no need to be confrontational on the subject - to me it is a matter of logic. Taking a life is intrinsically wrong, because it is halting the life of an individual without their consent - regardless of the suffering caused before the death.


Sure.

Okay here is the "problem". I'm a Buddhist and I do follow the general rule of not taking life but I would add the stipulation "if it can at all be avoided". If someone is trying to kill me or injure me badly, yes I'm going to save myself even if it involves their death.. That's very hypothetical and I doubt it would happen but yes I would defend myself to the death.. I would try not to kill but you can't totally rule it out..

On the subject of animals, I can't argue against the fact that humans are part of the food chain and we are able to eat and hunt though the way we hunt and farm has totally broken evolution (It hasn't, we will always evolve depending on what outside stimulus we are exposed to but it's a general idea). So, should we eat meat? Maybe, do we have the choice not to? Yes. If you want to be part of the food chain that hunts and kills for your food then fine, we are animals and other omnivores do this. If you want to be a plant based creature, great, good. Humans have a higher conscious and the ability to choose when other animals don't.

I would say human beings are no longer hunters or gatherers, we are scavengers, more so if we allow people to farm our animals for meat.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:36 pm 
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What food chain are we a part of? Animals bred into captivity are by definition not in the food chain, they are isolated specifically for us to consume.

But once again, a food chain is irrelevant. We're talking about murder - killing an animal in cold blood, for the single reason of our enjoyment at the dinner table. That must be backed-up with a very good reason. It isn't a matter of personal choice or some kind of freedom - it is killing.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:30 am 
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Richard wrote:
But once again, a food chain is irrelevant. We're talking about murder - killing an animal in cold blood, for the single reason of our enjoyment at the dinner table. That must be backed-up with a very good reason. It isn't a matter of personal choice or some kind of freedom - it is killing.

+1

I can't speak to the situation elsewhere, but in America, eating meat is not a necessity. There is no "food chain" to speak of, because humans are fully removed from any predator/prey relationship. We aren't environmentally or biologically forced into a particular diet.

We kill animals for food because we want to, not because we need to. And our justifications are essentially that they taste good and it's tradition. I can understand this reasoning, particularly because there's no strong societal condemnation, but I don't approve of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:52 am 
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I would stress the words "hunt" and "broken evolution" in my reply.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:03 am 
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I don't like to go round in circles, particularly with someone who fundamentally agrees - at least in practice! :lol: I got confused about what you were addressing, because it seemed you were talking about eating meat in general, and talking about treatment of meat-eaters (in general). But now you are saying you are specifically talking about those who hunt and kill animals personally - a tiny minority of meat-eaters.

So to address hunting: You can't compare humans to other animals in the way that you're doing. Humans are highly intelligent, and adaptable. Most other animals are in a routine of survival, and are acting on instinct. Humans are aware of what's going on, and can make a choice - and they know the outcome of the choices beforehand. We are not "innocent" like animals, in that respect, and also in the environment we live we do not struggle for survival.

So it is not as simple as "lions eat meat, so we can eat meat, and it's okay". We know that other animals are alive, and concious, and we know what it means to kill something. We also know we have a choice not to do it - so to deliberately make that choice is selfish and unethical.

Beyond this, the entire notion of food chains, evolution and survival is horrible. It is "natural", but it's actually harsh as hell, and I don't know why we'd want to be part of it! Things get sick and die, inferior animals are born and die, things rip each other apart, struggling to get enough food just to survive, things die of thirst when water is scarce... it's dreadful. Just because it is "natural", it doesn't mean we should strive to be part of it. Picking meat-eating specifically out of all the things that are natural is self-serving, and actually nothing to do with wanting to be part of a cycle, or nature. If someone really wanted to do that, they'd go live in the wild, with no phone, no gun, no shoes... and struggle like animals do. That's nature - and it sucks

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:20 am 
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Richard wrote:
I don't like to go round in circles, particularly with someone who fundamentally agrees - at least in practice! :lol: I got confused about what you were addressing, because it seemed you were talking about eating meat in general, and talking about treatment of meat-eaters (in general). But now you are saying you are specifically talking about those who hunt and kill animals personally - a tiny minority of meat-eaters.

So to address hunting: You can't compare humans to other animals in the way that you're doing. Humans are highly intelligent, and adaptable. Most other animals are in a routine of survival, and are acting on instinct. Humans are aware of what's going on, and can make a choice - and they know the outcome of the choices beforehand. We are not "innocent" like animals, in that respect, and also in the environment we live we do not struggle for survival.

So it is not as simple as "lions eat meat, so we can eat meat, and it's okay". We know that other animals are alive, and concious, and we know what it means to kill something. We also know we have a choice not to do it - so to deliberately make that choice is selfish and unethical.

Beyond this, the entire notion of food chains, evolution and survival is horrible. It is "natural", but it's actually harsh as hell, and I don't know why we'd want to be part of it! Things get sick and die, inferior animals are born and die, things rip each other apart, struggling to get enough food just to survive, things die of thirst when water is scarce... it's dreadful. Just because it is "natural", it doesn't mean we should strive to be part of it. Picking meat-eating specifically out of all the things that are natural is self-serving, and actually nothing to do with wanting to be part of a cycle, or nature. If someone really wanted to do that, they'd go live in the wild, with no phone, no gun, no shoes... and struggle like animals do. That's nature - and it sucks


Oh yes I agree with you in principle. We have managed to break evolution via our intelligence AND our compassion. It's argued that the biggest reason that the human race is so plentiful is that we can very easily empathize with other humans.

My only issue is that.. I can't really think of a reason why people can't eat meat.. Okay, I don't want to because of suffering/death and so on inflicted on even the most humanely treated animal (Does anyone else think that humane sounds a bit odd?) but do I look down on people that do? I can't, not really and I've never been able to bring myself to.

My biggest gripe is not so much with food but with items. For example, you wouldn't believe (well you may) how many animal products are in the things you buy and don't even realize it. This gives me FAR more moral questions and agonizing than food because that's easy to do.. For example, I do kendo, love kendo and keep doing Kendo. I found out that kendo armour is made out of leather in places, okay so now I need to find Kendo armour that isn't. I eventually tracked some down in Japan and ordered it. Later I found out that all kendo armour uses at least one bit of leather so even though mine didn't use it in the majority there was a tiny bit that did (to be fair to the company they didn't say it was vegan friendly or anything just that they used clarino and I-leather).

Next is my sword, the grip is made out of leather (this really passed me by in the early stages as I didn't even consider it). I have searched for a long, long time to try and find a sword that hasn't got leather parts OR to find someone that will make me a custom item.. with no luck..

Now what do I do? Quit kendo?... I really, really don't want to but.. do I make that sacrifice or don't I? Do I stop going to the gym because some of the machines have leather parts? Same with other places, bars and so on, leather seats there.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Ojibwa wrote:
My whole family hunts. I'm the only vegan in the family and I do it simply for health reasons. I was diabetic before I started eating vegan, and now I'm not. I have no problem going hunting because anything I kill will get eaten by my family. I don't bow hunt even though I am an Ojibwa, because I think bowhunting is barbaric. If you're going to kill something, do it quickly. I also fish, just because I really love it. We bass fish and we practice catch and release. Veganism is not a religion to me, it's a health choice. I think you're going to run into a lot of vegans like me because of Dr. Neal Barnard.


I am going to try and sound like as little of a judgmental asshole as possible, but it's probably not going to work.

I really hope that I don't run into a lot of 'vegans' that think it's okay to shoot animals and hurt them by sticking hooks in their mouths for fun. There is a difference between not eating animals (I believe that's why people started using the term 'plant based') and being vegan. Killing animals isn't vegan. It's like saying you're a pacifist right after you walked up to someone and punched them in the face.


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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:03 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
Ojibwa wrote:
My whole family hunts. I'm the only vegan in the family and I do it simply for health reasons. I was diabetic before I started eating vegan, and now I'm not. I have no problem going hunting because anything I kill will get eaten by my family. I don't bow hunt even though I am an Ojibwa, because I think bowhunting is barbaric. If you're going to kill something, do it quickly. I also fish, just because I really love it. We bass fish and we practice catch and release. Veganism is not a religion to me, it's a health choice. I think you're going to run into a lot of vegans like me because of Dr. Neal Barnard.


I am going to try and sound like as little of a judgmental asshole as possible, but it's probably not going to work.

I really hope that I don't run into a lot of 'vegans' that think it's okay to shoot animals and hurt them by sticking hooks in their mouths for fun. There is a difference between not eating animals (I believe that's why people started using the term 'plant based') and being vegan. Killing animals isn't vegan. It's like saying you're a pacifist right after you walked up to someone and punched them in the face.


This is quite a hard thing to work around. I don't want to go around hating my friends, my partner, family and so on because they fish or eat meat. I consider myself a vegan, you're free to disagree with me if you like but I don't think hating or being judgmental doesn't work on EITHER SIDE of the fence. I kinda think I'm leaning more towards life being shades of grey rather than black and white, wrong and right.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:24 pm 
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I don't hate anyone, I just take issue with someone saying they're vegan and then saying they still shoot animals and fish, which involves hurting the fish.

I'm sure one could try to argue that veganism is just about not eating or using animal products, but hunting and fishing is using animals for your entertainment, regardless of if you're eating them or not, regardless of your reasons for pursuing the vegan lifestyle. Being vegan for health doesn't make non-vegan things more vegan just because they don't personally concern you, is what i'm saying. Like if you wear leather and use all cleaners and personal products that are tested on animals and have things like carmine, lanolin, etc...those things aren't vegan (and most of them aren't healthy to put in/on your body).


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