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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:14 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I don't hate anyone, I just take issue with someone saying they're vegan and then saying they still shoot animals and fish, which involves hurting the fish.

I'm sure one could try to argue that veganism is just about not eating or using animal products, but hunting and fishing is using animals for your entertainment, regardless of if you're eating them or not, regardless of your reasons for pursuing the vegan lifestyle. Being vegan for health doesn't make non-vegan things more vegan just because they don't personally concern you, is what i'm saying. Like if you wear leather and use all cleaners and personal products that are tested on animals and have things like carmine, lanolin, etc...those things aren't vegan (and most of them aren't healthy to put in/on your body).


Oh yes I wouldn't kill an animal either, with the caveat.. I've had to aid in the death of animals that were beyond saving when I was training to be a vet, for me that's a mercy kill, we can't do anything for you so it's probably kinder to put you out of your pain.

Also, I take in snakes and reptiles (and other exotic animals) that have usually come from, not so much "abuse" but homes that didn't know how to take care of them, I look after them as pets and give them the attention they need (as I specialize in exotic animals). Is that vegan?

These animals eat dead rats/mice and insects, am I, by making sure one animal lives allowing the death of others and is that vegan?

I try and avoid all leather as possible and I will go out of my way (the kendo example) to try and not use leather, wool and so on. However, some of the equipment I HAVE to use do have these things as components. Would it be easier to not tell anyone about that? Oh yes, could I keep a lie like that on my concussions? No.

The best way I've found to be who I am is to try and minimize my effect on the animal and by extension natural world in which I live. Can I do it 100%? No I can't. It's not possible. Even if I gave up everything, kendo, snake handling, going to the gym, going to places that use leather seats and so on I can't help but hurt the world in some little way by the actions of others that I seem to need to do by living with other humans who don't have my beliefs.

The only, real, 100% way of doing it is by living in a mud and wood hut and never cooking anything, ever and so on. Can I do that? No. Can I go out of my way to minimize my effect on the world around me? Yes.

I hope I haven't gone into a rant and upset you or someone else. It's just my idea of realism and having to deal with these things on my concussion. You can hate me too, that's your decision, you can say I'm not, well, whatever, you're free to do so. I didn't really want to stir up trouble, kinda wanted to get my opinions out there.

Sorry about the spelling errors btw, looong day :D

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:49 am 
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mythil wrote:
Oh yes I agree with you in principle. We have managed to break evolution via our intelligence AND our compassion. It's argued that the biggest reason that the human race is so plentiful is that we can very easily empathize with other humans.

My only issue is that.. I can't really think of a reason why people can't eat meat.. Okay, I don't want to because of suffering/death and so on inflicted on even the most humanely treated animal (Does anyone else think that humane sounds a bit odd?) but do I look down on people that do? I can't, not really and I've never been able to bring myself to.

My biggest gripe is not so much with food but with items. For example, you wouldn't believe (well you may) how many animal products are in the things you buy and don't even realize it. This gives me FAR more moral questions and agonizing than food because that's easy to do.. For example, I do kendo, love kendo and keep doing Kendo. I found out that kendo armour is made out of leather in places, okay so now I need to find Kendo armour that isn't. I eventually tracked some down in Japan and ordered it. Later I found out that all kendo armour uses at least one bit of leather so even though mine didn't use it in the majority there was a tiny bit that did (to be fair to the company they didn't say it was vegan friendly or anything just that they used clarino and I-leather).

Next is my sword, the grip is made out of leather (this really passed me by in the early stages as I didn't even consider it). I have searched for a long, long time to try and find a sword that hasn't got leather parts OR to find someone that will make me a custom item.. with no luck..

Now what do I do? Quit kendo?... I really, really don't want to but.. do I make that sacrifice or don't I? Do I stop going to the gym because some of the machines have leather parts? Same with other places, bars and so on, leather seats there.


You can't think of a reason why they can't eat meat? All you need is compassion for an animal, and you can put yourself in the animal's position, just like you would if you were to talk about why it's wrong to kill a human. From the victim's perspective, it's a bad thing, and as it's totally unnecessary, it is wrong.

When you talk about looking down on people, that's a completely different subject, as I said before. You can think that an action is wrong, without actually doing anything, or forming an opinion of those who do it - if you want to. There's a difference between saying something is wrong, and saying that those who do it are "evil" etc.

Regarding 100% veganism being nearly impossible to attain - I agree, and we all face a dilemma regarding where we draw a line. We live in a society which relies upon animal products in all kinds of places. You actually can't escape it realistically. But, it isn't futile. Though we all have different "comfort zones" and what we're willing to go without, the more people who are vegetarian and vegan to any extent are joining a mass-boycott against the exploitation of animals. The problem is so vast and far-reaching that you can't target it specifically. But, all efforts have a result, and the industry is becoming less profitable. So from a practical point of view, you don't need to think "it's wrong for me to do this, so I'm not going to do it" and feel restricted - rather, you should realise we live in a shit-hole universe, and you can try to make some positive decisions that will help the future, such as buying alternatives where possible.

But fundamentally, I do believe that living in comfort at the expense of other animals is wrong, and I know that just by living in the society that I do, that I must be having negative impact. I'm aware of some of it, but most likely there are things that I don't even realise. I go without what I don't need to live a productive life in this society, but I still drive a car and even the basic necessitities obviously have an impact. I know what it would take for me to have 0% impact, but I lack the strength to do it, at a fundamental level, I am too selfish. I can give you excuses as above, about how I was born into this society and didn't choose etc, but I could remove myself and try to live in the wilderness technically - but it doesn't appeal to me, so I actively choose this society now. Pretty much everybody is guilty of that. I don't have a high opinion of humans in general, including myself. I see veganism as striving towards better and more positive actions, an aspect of myself which is actually good. Perfect veganism isn't necessary in order to change the world though.

Regarding the Kendo armour... you could buy it 2nd hand, that way you are not funding a production company. Those situations are irritating. I can't tell you how to feel about the situation. From my perspective, the less leather somebody buys, the better. But, as I said above, we are all guilty pretty much, we are all doing things that I'd personally say are wrong. We attempt to balance our activies in life with the damage we cause, and I can't personally justify it, but there you go! I feel guilt for how I live too.

At a very fundamental level... even more fundamental... it's a numbers game. Buying that Kendo armour with a tiny piece of leather on it, isn't as bad as buying a leather coat, because more leather is being used, in the long run, more animals have to die. If there is only a tiny strip of leather on a kendo suit, then 1 animal dies to make presumably hundreds of those. So it takes hundreds of customers for 1 animal to die. But, with a leather coat, maybe you will only get 3 or 4 coats off 1 animal, so if hundreds of people did the same, you end up with thousands of dead animals. So while I can't justify any use of leather, I'm aware that the more a person uses, the worse it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:30 am 
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It's a really interesting dilemma on where we do draw the line, as you say.

Could I go without an object that uses animal products? Oh yes, and I do for 99% of everything that effects me. However I could pretty easily guess that stuff around my house was made with or at the expense of an animal. I can't be 100% sure that my medication or medicate shampoo doesn't have an animal product in it somewhere (there are products that are bi products of animals that don't even show up on most things) or did it hurt an animal somewhere down the line? Does flushing my shampoo foam down the drain hurt something? I don't know..

I think total removal of hurting something to survive isn't possible, but it is possible to consciously try and minimize our impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:45 am 
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mythil wrote:
You can hate me too, that's your decision


But I already said that I didn't hate anyone, so I don't know why you keep saying this. Nevermind that you aren't the one who says that you hurt animals for fun so my post wasn't even addressing you.

No one can be 100% vegan, we're all fucking ourselves out of that title simply by using computers, and yes, most medications are tested on animals. Those are things that there aren't an alternative for. It's fairly easy to avoid household and personal products that aren't cruelty-free/vegan, and it's really easy to get clothes without silk/wool/leather. Like Richard said, you can buy stuff used. My husband bought a motorcycle and if there's one without leather seats, i've never seen one, but he got it used and then all of his gear is vegan (except his boots, which are from his military service and were issued to him, another example of something he couldn't avoid).


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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:24 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
mythil wrote:
You can hate me too, that's your decision


But I already said that I didn't hate anyone, so I don't know why you keep saying this. Nevermind that you aren't the one who says that you hurt animals for fun so my post wasn't even addressing you.

No one can be 100% vegan, we're all fucking ourselves out of that title simply by using computers, and yes, most medications are tested on animals. Those are things that there aren't an alternative for. It's fairly easy to avoid household and personal products that aren't cruelty-free/vegan, and it's really easy to get clothes without silk/wool/leather. Like Richard said, you can buy stuff used. My husband bought a motorcycle and if there's one without leather seats, i've never seen one, but he got it used and then all of his gear is vegan (except his boots, which are from his military service and were issued to him, another example of something he couldn't avoid).


Hehe, I'm not saying YOU specifically, I'm using "you" to say "Anyone who wants to". Kendo armour HAS to be made to measure the majority of the time, especially for me as I'm more well muscled so parts need to be made bigger. Avoiding household items is possible yes but looking at 100% cruelty free, well, those are really expensive and I just can't afford them.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:21 am 
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Surely Kendo armour is expensive too? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:34 am 
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Richard wrote:
Surely Kendo armour is expensive too? :scratch:


Oh yes, it's cheapest version is about £350 British. However it's mostly made to order as it has to fit right and the eye openings need to be on the right level.

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 Post subject: Re: Many forms of vegan mentality?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Here's an interesting take from a non-vegan comedian. The first part describes a lot of people's misconceptions about "cruetly-free." The latter part makes me laugh my ass off because I make meat-alternative patties from almonds.



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