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 Post subject: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Condensed version: I'm trying to get to under 10% BF and I feel like I'm starving all the muscle off my body, how should I feel and how aggressive can I get with dieting and cardio? i'm very worried about overdoing it and loosing muscle, but at the same time, it seems like the conventional stuff just won't let me get past about 15% BF

Hey everyone, I haven't been on the forum that much recently. Been training and all, just no time for posting!

But well, I really need some help. If there are any vets out there, people who have done contest etc, help me out here!

I've been training for about 3 years now, maybe a bit more, and I've always been plagued with the same problems. Most of my body weight is in my torso, I have always had skinny arms, and legs, (which is a whole separate problem haha) and a little gut, even 13 years ago when I was emaciated during my "ok I'm vegan now, but wtf do I eat?" phase, had a little skinny fat belly. I can't complain about everything though my back is pretty strong... I'm 5'8" sitting at 150lbs 15 or 16% BF right now

Anyways, more to the point when I started training, I was told, if you want to get big you've got to eat big, and eat big I did, because at this point I had become very good at managing my diet and well I pounded the calories away.... so I did get bigger and stronger, packed that newbie muscle on, but I got fat in the process. So by about the time that I had really gotten my bearings in hte gym I decided it was time to cut.

So, I made the mistake of going all out on the diet, I ate maybe 1700 calories a day, ran intense intervals on an empty stomach in the mornings, ate a low carb diet, etc. the result was I lost weight, but just looked really damn skinny. So I gave up on that after a few months, took a break from training and eventually got back into it, put my weight back up to almost 180lbs and I was the biggest I had ever been but again, seriously fat (for me). So, after reading some layne norton articles about pre contest preparation I went on a much better diet. I ate my BMR X 1.2 and minus a couple hundred calories, worked out to be about 2000 calories a day. Just did my normal resistance training and sometimes walked on a steep incline afterwards. This went pretty well, and I stuck with it until I got down to about 137lbs, and thats where I ran into problems.

Getting those last few pounds off was exceedingly difficult and came at the cost of muscle. I was losing weight but not body fat at that point, I was WAY more hungry than I had been on the diet up until that point, and was seriously losing my motivation for the gym. So, I faced facts and thought that I simply didn't have enough active tissue (IE muscle) on my body to support being at a low BF %. So I took a bit of time off, and went back to bulking and hit the gym way harder than I had before. over about 4 months I got back up to 180 and was feeling really strong, I definitely made some solid gains during the bulk, but again, took on a lot of fat too.

So March 1 of this year hits and I decide its time to try and get the beach body happening, I started dieting again, which has been going well, I'm leaner than I was during my last cut, however something different happened this time. When I got down to about 155lbs I stopped losing weight, but I did continue to lean out and lower my BF% for about a month. I think this was partly due to the fact that I started cycling more consistently, but also I just thought I had gotten into that zone. However, it didn't last that long and now I'm sitting at around 152, and I've made some changes in hopes of shredding off another 5% or more. I started doing morning cardio, just 30 minutes walking on an incline, or 30 minutes on the spin bike at a moderate pace, I've started running intervals (nothing tooo crazy though) after my weight training and I've also started doing slow, low rep high weight workouts in hopes of encouraging myofibrillar growth rather than sarcoplasmic growth. This started to work, I dropped a few more lbs started to look leaner, but the problem is, I can feel that I'm much more hungry most of the time, and I can deal with hunger pains but I know they mean my body is probably breaking down muscle now too. It might just be psychological but I feel like I'm not lifting the same in the gym now either...

Anyways, I know this is long, but thank you if you read it. Basically what I really need to know is, what I should be feeling like during this phase. Something in my body has definitely changed, and I basically want to know if I should stick with it, or call my loses and go back and try to bulk more before trying to get down to a very low BF%.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:37 am 
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This will probably be a controversial response but here's my 2 cents. I don't compete in bodybuilding and I don't do "cutting". I eat 2x my BMR and I'm 8-9% BF. I eat 80/10/10 which is very low fat. I'm not 100% raw anymore, more like 90%. But I find that keeping fruit as my staple, eating lots of leafy greens and keeping the rest of my diet whole-food, high carb, low fat keeps me LEAN. I *never* calorie restrict, EVER. I eat as much as I want, as much as I can. I think if you are eating a whole-foods, low fat vegan diet you should have no trouble getting below 10% BF.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:31 am 
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um yeah i got down to probably 14 percent as a female - 30 lbs loss for a contest. i thought i was losing my hair and got really crabby and depressed and anxsious and didnt sleep it definitely messes with your head! its not natural for your body to do its fighting against it...if you arent competing i wouldnt recommend this at all... eat clean and lift hard and do compound exercises....i think that will help to even out your limbs...

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:38 pm 
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I definitely lost my mind when cutting also... I got down to 9.5% BF for my competition in May, which was my target BF. I did feel very paranoid that I lost a lot of muscle...especially in my arms. Although my arms were bigger than a lot of the other girls. Realistically...you will get smaller when cutting and should expect to look smaller, but more defined. Maintaining one's current size and getting ripped doesn't work. Try not to lose more than 1 or 2 lbs a week when cutting..any faster and the body is more likely to lose muscle.

I was on 2400 -2700 cal a day for my cutting ....I don't understand how anyone goes below 2000 cals...especially for men and I think if you do, and feel hungry, that muscle loss is certain. I was doing two hard 40 min workouts plus 30 min HIIT cardio each day. This caused serious sleep problems and I was in the hospital twice from that (caused by my adrenaline not being able to shut off) But I shed 5% BF in 5 weeks. I also calculated macros every day: 40% carb, 40% prot, 20% fat calories. That ratio is common for bodybuilders and really works magic.

I agree the 80/10/10 is a good way to maintain low BF. Its more extreme than 40/40/20. I know people who have a lot of success with this. Men should be able to keep 10% long term.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:32 pm 
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wow you have a crazy metabolism. jealous...

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:27 pm 
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I was eating 2500-3000 cals a day on a High protein/lowcarb diet. I switched to 80/10/10 and started eating 4000-5000 cals/day and lost about 20 ibs. I'm currently maintaining at about 180 ibs, here is my latest update video. If you look at the video right before this one you can see a "before" pic back when I was high protein/low carb/moderate fat. Everyone may not be interested in 811, but one thing I'm convinced of above all else is that you can eat as much fruit as you like, and it will not make you fat. The video/comparisons on my own body are all the proof I need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soCz0mAqHek

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 Post subject: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:45 pm 
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Wow but how is muscle growth affected by 811

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:12 am 
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jungleinthefrunk wrote:
Wow but how is muscle growth affected by 811



I personally only have positive things to say in regards to both cutting fat and building muscle on 811. But I have seen people do it and suddenly look like they lost all their muscles. I think part of the problem though is that they go into it with the mindset that "I can only eat (X) amount of calories" and they are restrictive about their eating. I counted calories for a while to make sure I got enough, and then I just started eating to my hearts content after I kind of got the hang of it.

IMO compared to counting out protein and all that it's much easier. People talk about how hard it is, and I'm just thinking, "No, hard was when I was counting out 250(g) of protein everyday and trying to keep my carbs between 150-200 and I just seemed to be getting fatter and not stronger."

In the last two months since I started lifting again (I was doing a calisthenics study before that) I haven't gone to workout and not added either weight or reps to the bar, so if strength equals muscle yes 811 builds muscle. If it's not, then eat more.

One other thing though that I've noticed about 811 people is that they think the diet is just fruit. This makes me think that they never actually read the book where Doug Graham recommends eating 1-2 pounds of greens/day. Everyone that tries 811 will likely try different things, and all of them will get different results, but rather than focusing on "being raw" I think it's better to focus on carbs and fruit, and if you add cooked food like rice, potatoes and such to that then so be it.

Those are just my opinions/experiences after seven months. If you are interested in trying it then read the book and ask around. I only have positive things to say, but obviously not everyone likes it, or shares my experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:45 pm 
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perhaps i can try it after this contest...i do like fruit .

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:51 am 
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Erin Maubray won her pro card last year, and she does 80/10/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwg37aqEXpQ

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:14 am 
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More fat soluble vitamins will lower BF. Carrot juice, greens, etc..

jungleinthefrunk wrote:
Wow but how is muscle growth affected by 811

In the long run, those that shun soaked nuts because of extremism and fat phobia, loose muscle mass because of a deficiency of Omega 6's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachidonic_acid#Arachidonic_acid_in_the_body

80 10 10 is a good ratio for the summer. More fat in the winter for insulation.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:56 am 
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Can I ask why you feel that need for 10% or less body fat?

My advice would be to stop listening/reading or talking to people putting this into your head

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:06 am 
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veggiesasquatch wrote:
Can I ask why you feel that need for 10% or less body fat?

My advice would be to stop listening/reading or talking to people putting this into your head


Ok I will sasquatch! Starting with yours... :lol:

This is purely for aesthetics. I feel like getting to and maintaining (at least for a few months) 10% or lower is do-able as plenty of our meat/dairy eating counterparts do it.

80/10/10 seems really counter intuitive to me but I'd be willing to give it a shot, especially because that type of diet does appeal to me in terms of personal food preferences.

@Precisionfemale, reading your post I think it sort of makes sense, with the amount of cardio you were doing per day i'm sure you were burning up the extra calories about 2000. I'm just going based on my BMR and subtracting a couple hundred, however there are days where I do extra cardio, and I also cycle. I did a 140km ride thursday and ate my face off as soon as I got home.

@Iron Clad Ben, Just curious about your body type, where were you at before starting 80/10/10, and before you got into fitness in general?

I just find whenever I am eating over 2000 calories, say 2500 I will begin to put fat on. Even during my last bulk I was eating about 3000-3500 calories a day and put on 30lbs in 4 months.

For the time being I've decided on the intermittent fasting thing, I'm going to give it a shot for a month and see how I feel/look at the end of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:00 pm 
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I was about 18% BF before starting 80/10/10. I was pretty lean looking, in decent shape but my muscles lacked definition. On 811 all my definition just came out. Of course that was a tertiary benefit in relation to boost in mood, energy and just general vitality, happiness and well being. You don't have to do 811 100% to see the benefits. Just start incorporating more fruits and vegetables in your diet by eating fruit for breakfast and having fruit-meals for lunch more often. You'll love the way it'll make you feel.

BTW are you male or female? I think 10% is good for men, but really on the low end of healthy for women.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting sub 10% BF. losing my mind here...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:43 am 
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XveganX wrote:
veggiesasquatch wrote:
Can I ask why you feel that need for 10% or less body fat?

My advice would be to stop listening/reading or talking to people putting this into your head


Ok I will sasquatch! Starting with yours... :lol:

This is purely for aesthetics. I feel like getting to and maintaining (at least for a few months) 10% or lower is do-able as plenty of our meat/dairy eating counterparts do it.

80/10/10 seems really counter intuitive to me but I'd be willing to give it a shot, especially because that type of diet does appeal to me in terms of personal food preferences.

@Precisionfemale, reading your post I think it sort of makes sense, with the amount of cardio you were doing per day i'm sure you were burning up the extra calories about 2000. I'm just going based on my BMR and subtracting a couple hundred, however there are days where I do extra cardio, and I also cycle. I did a 140km ride thursday and ate my face off as soon as I got home.

@Iron Clad Ben, Just curious about your body type, where were you at before starting 80/10/10, and before you got into fitness in general?

I just find whenever I am eating over 2000 calories, say 2500 I will begin to put fat on. Even during my last bulk I was eating about 3000-3500 calories a day and put on 30lbs in 4 months.

For the time being I've decided on the intermittent fasting thing, I'm going to give it a shot for a month and see how I feel/look at the end of it.



That's ok with me, if you want to be lean with not much muscle then the advice here will serve you well

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