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From your post, you agree the baby is getting by with 7% protein, yet you advocated 20% to 30%, in cases where I would imagine the protein need would be less - body building where the adult is growing but no where near the rate of the infant. .

 

The baby is growing so the baby needs a HUGE amount of calories for its size, but it STILL needs a certain amount of protein to make that growth possible. You're talking ~860 calories for a 15-lb (or so) human! That would be like an adult bodybuilder weighing 150lbs eating 8600 calories. 7% of that is.. 150 grams!

 

Adult athletes do not even come close to utilizing all the protein they consume for muscle growth. Like I said before, they use a lot of the amino acids for energy for heavy training sessions and other functions. (As you can see, protein consumption also depends on training intensity and lifestyle.) Only what's left over gets used to build!!

 

In the first post where I mentioned ratios, I mentioned those ratios were for weight (fat) LOSS and not growth. Even when you cut your calories for fat loss, you have to maintain the SAME level of protein for growth/repair after training, amino acid sparing during training and the essential functions in between.

 

Building *lots and lots* of muscle is NOT a *normal* state for human beings. We can do it, but it is not functional. Therefore, we do not fall under the same guidelines as *everyone else*. The RDA does not really apply to athletes because we are a special population. Muscle is very expensive for the body to maintain, so your body will be more than happy to give some up any chance it gets...

 

If you are not trying to build and not putting your body in any state that it needs to *heal* from, you need minimal protein.. about what the RDA suggests.

 

... and the percentage of protein is going to change, depending on what your athletic goals are. If you want to lose fat, you need to create a calorie deficit and drop calories. If you want to gain, you need to eat more, so while you might be getting the same amount of protein in both situations, the ratio will be different.

 

I posted the original ratios because there was dicussion about the relationship between dietary fat and body fat loss.

 

~ Adrienne

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Here's a summary of a few studies:

 

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/suppl_5/513S

 

Most of the studies agree that athletes need increased protein amounts and that they should get 1.2 - 1.8g/kg of protein per day, depending on sport and training intensity.

 

If I choose the higher end (1.7) and mutliply my kilograms by that, I get that my diet should be about 25% protein.

 

It's a very controversial topic at this point; there isn't enough information out there to prove it one way or the other. Speaking of which, do you have any studies indicating increased protein intake is detrimental to athletes?

 

~ Adrienne

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Here's a summary of a few studies:

 

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/suppl_5/513S

 

Most of the studies agree that athletes need increased protein amounts and that they should get 1.2 - 1.8g/kg of protein per day, depending on sport and training intensity.

 

If I choose the higher end (1.7) and mutliply my kilograms by that, I get that my diet should be about 25% protein.

 

It's a very controversial topic at this point; there isn't enough information out there to prove it one way or the other. Speaking of which, do you have any studies indicating increased protein intake is detrimental to athletes?

 

~ Adrienne

 

First, thanks for that study, I enjoyed it and learned many things. Sorry to sound arrogant but I found your study actually supports my postion (if eating enough calories, for fuel need, a 10% of calories as protein meets total protein needs.) . (Note: the higher end of the range you cited was shown for more cardiovascular leaning exercisers, versus body builders - For example, see Figure 1, of that study.)

 

Highlights, from your article, that are in agreement with my position:

 

1) The study states, "Although strength athletes can increase muscle growth with supplemental protein, this effect seems to attain a plateau at protein intakes (1.4 g/kg) far below intakes typical of experienced bodybuilders (Fig. 8 [26])."

 

It does add that creatine might increase that plateau but that is opinion not study findings.

 

So your study is indicating the same my study showed. 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight helps muscle gain but above that is marginal. My study showed .8 grams to 1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, so its upper range is above your study's. The 1.4 grams per kilograms equates to .65 grams per pound. My 10% protein and 3000 calories intake, gives me at least 75 grams of protein (and on workout days I get 110, as my calories are 50% more), which is close (workout days exceeds) what your study requirement would be. So a 10 to 12% protein, as total calories, and meeting your energy needs (total calories consume) will keep you in the range of both studies.

 

2) The report emphasizes carbohydrate intake for fuel. I am in total agreement with that. That is one of my arguments against increasing protein intake to the 20 to 30% range because to do that you are likely cutting back carbohydrates by the same amount caloric amount and robbing yourself of that more efficient fuel.

 

It reads: "Carbohydrate availability to exercising muscle is critical for intense muscle contraction, as it is a more efficient fuel (produces more adenosine triphosphate per unit of oxygen) than both fat and protein. In combination with the fact that the total carbohydrate stores in the body can be depleted in a single exercise bout, this makes carbohydrate the single most important exercise fuel. As a result, carbohydrate has been studied to a much greater extent than either protein or fat. However, inadequate carbohydrate for muscle contraction is also critical because its availability is inversely related to the rate of exercise protein catabolism (Fig. 2 [17]). Therefore, daily carbohydrate intake is of great significance for physically active individuals. Moreover, physically active individuals need to be much less concerned about excess dietary carbohydrate intake resulting in surplus body fat storage (and associated adverse health effects) compared to their sedentary counterparts because this substrate is used to replenish carbohydrates stores depleted by exercise training/competition sessions. In fact, rather than over-consuming carbohydrate, athletes typically have great difficulty replenishing carbohydrate stores following exercise."

 

3) As added commentary to 2) the article states: Fig. 2. Nitrogen excretion increases with prolonged, moderately intense exercise and especially so when carbohydrate stores are low. (Adapted from [17].)

 

That is in agreement with my position on carbohydrates. If you cut them below your fuel needs, your body is going to cannibalize its own muscle, after it depletes its carbohydrate stores. This hits on my idea that high protein intake might actually be detrimental to muscle development. What I project: You work out harder, you consume recent dietary carbohydrates then deplete your body's carbohydrate stores and then go into a mini ketosis burning your muscle for fuel.

 

 

 

 

 

Some added interesting points from the study you posted:

 

A) On overall energy needs, it states that body builders have the same requirements as the ones prescribed for sedentary people. See its Figure 1. It had weightlifters (I assume this means lighter weights, more repetitions) at 40% more, cross country skiers at almost double, From that trend, I assume it is stating that higher cardiovascular exercise demands more food intake than anaerobic ones (body building.)

 

 

B) The article states, Exercise Intensity, Duration and Type

Increasing exercise intensity and duration, at least with aerobic (endurance) exercise, causes increased use of protein, presumably as an auxiliary fuel [18–21]. Based primarily on nitrogen balance experiments, this results in an increased daily protein need of about 50% to 75% (1.2–1.4 vs. 0.8 g/kg) when compared to inactive individuals

 

I am in agreement with this. That is why high heart rate cardiovascular exercise is detrimental to muscle gain - runners, etc. are burning muscle. So body builders should watch their heart rates, when doing cardiovascular exercise and keep them fairly low (120-130 range), in comparison to runners hitting 150+. This might be concern for body builders engaging in HIT exercise.

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If I choose the higher end (1.7) and mutliply my kilograms by that, I get that my diet should be about 25% protein.

 

 

~ Adrienne

 

Are you eating 1700 calories daily?

 

Your website states you weigh 135 pounds, as I recall. A kilogram equals 2.2 pounds. So 1.7 grams per kilograms would be .77 (1.7 divided by 2.2) grams per pound. For 135 pounds that would be around 105 grams of protein. 4 calories per gram would mean 420 calories from protein. If that is 25% of your total calories that would mean that your total calories are1680. Based on your physique. you must entertain hardcore workouts. Can you really maintain energy and your physique at 1700 calories?

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Can you really maintain energy and your physique at 1700 calories?

 

Right now, yes. I am trying to cut a little body fat (as I said - this whole debate stemmed from my advice on how to lose), so I am maintaining a calorie deficit. When I am not doing this, I maintain at around 2000 calories a day. Actually, I eat 1700 calories about 5 days a week and then another 2 days I bump it up to around 2100 calories. This keeps my metabolism from dropping.

 

Trust me, I am not currently working out that hard. I lift heavy.. about 3 days a week and I do a little cardio sprinkled in (maybe an additional 60 minutes a week). I sit on my butt all day at work.

 

~ Adrienne

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Can you really maintain energy and your physique at 1700 calories?

 

Right now, yes. I am trying to cut a little body fat (as I said - this whole debate stemmed from my advice on how to lose), so I am maintaining a calorie deficit. When I am not doing this, I maintain at around 2000 calories a day. Actually, I eat 1700 calories about 5 days a week and then another 2 days I bump it up to around 2100 calories. This keeps my metabolism from dropping.

 

Trust me, I am not currently working out that hard. I lift heavy.. about 3 days a week and I do a little cardio sprinkled in (maybe an additional 60 minutes a week). I sit on my butt all day at work.

 

~ Adrienne

 

You seem to analyze your diet, maybe you can help me. Something that would help me very much: how does one determine his caloric needs?

 

My hunger is satisfied at around 2200 to 2400 calories a day but I make myself eat more to get an extra 300-700 calories a day.

 

I have body fat (I have not had it tested in a while but my guess is my body fat percentage is 12 to 14% ), so I am wondering if I really need to add the extra calories (again I do not eat the extra to satisfy hunger; it is merely to add more calories thinking my activity level needs it.)

 

I am really wondering now because I have had good muscle growth the last two months, as I have increased the intensity of my weigh lifting but my total weight has not change much. Shirts etc. fit tighter, I can tell my muscles are larger but I only weight about 1 to 2 pounds more than I did two months ago and my body fat does not seem to have change (although I guess it had to go down, if I maintain weight with muscle growth.)

 

Is it just experimenting, or are there any good methods to determine your optimal caloric needs?

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  • 2 weeks later...
Is it just experimenting, or are there any good methods to determine your optimal caloric needs?

 

Oops, sorry I am so late on this!!

 

I really only analyze my diet when I want to reach a particular goal. I have a good handle on my caloric needs from experimenting, dieting for comps and I have a metabolic test done every now and again. I had one done last year and it was 2250. It is important to me to make sure my body is getting what it needs.

 

I don't generally advocate using cookie-cutter formulas, but this one seems to be pretty close for me. Usually, the formulas have me eating around 1500 calories a day, which would never fly!! This puts my BMR at or near 2250, which jives with the last test I had.

 

BMR = bodyweight in kgs x activity level x lean factor multiplier (in bold below) x 24 hours

 

Activity Level: 130% is very light activity: sitting, studying, talking, little walking. 155% is light activity; typing, teaching, lab/shop work, some walking throughout the day. 165% is moderate activity: walking, jogging, gardening, active job, training 1 to 2 hours per day. 200% is heavy activity level: manual labor such as digging, tree felling, construction work, and sports activities between 2 and 3 hours. 230% is very heavy activity: a combination of moderate and heavy activity 8 or more hours per day, plus sports activities 2 to 4 hours per day.

 

Lean Factor:

Description Lean Factor

Percent Body Fat Levels Multiplier

1 "Lean" Men 10% to <14% – Women 14% to <18% 100%(1.0)

2 "Normal" Men 14% to <20% – Women 18% to <28% 95%(0.95)

3 "Clinically Obese" Men 20% to 28% – Women 28% to 38% 90%(0.90)

4 "Chronically Obese" Men over 28% – Women over 38% 85%(0.85)

 

Everyone is different, so this is just a guideline. You may need more or less.

 

~ Adrienne

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I also wanted to mention that I just had a blood panel run (for insurance purposes) and all my levels are within normal limits. The tests included protein, nitrogen, creatinine.. among other things. I am definitely NOT eating too much protein. I'm right smack in the middle of the acceptable ranges.

 

~ Adrienne

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