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 Post subject: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:06 am 
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Finch
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Location: Somerton, Oxfordshire, UK
Hi Guys and Girls,

I'm trying to tailor my training plan to my body type and my ability to eat (or not eat) during a given day, any help would be graciously received!

I'm 31 years old, I weigh 70kg (11 stone, 154 Lbs.) and I'm 5'11" (1.8M) tall. I have always been pretty skinny and have weighed about the same since I was 18 yrs. old. When I first turned veggie about 7 years ago I managed to up my weight to 12.5 stone (80kg, 175lbs) it took about 18 months of training every day and literally forcing two protein shakes a day down my neck, the weight was a mixture of muscle and fat. For me it was completely unsustainable, it made me feel sick every day and I had major stomach/gut problems, so I stopped altogether, the weight fell off to 11.5 stone in no time at all.

I went fully vegan and started training again about 6 months ago and lost a further half stone in about 4 weeks, so I'm now back to the original, very stable 11 stone!

I eat a pretty balanced diet, probably too much fruit (high sugar) and probably not quite enough protein, thankfully now I'm vegan and so have ditched the diary I don’t get anywhere near the same level of stomach problems as before, I’ve started drinking Vega protein powder with water or fruit juice and that seems okay on my clearly sensitive stomach! My big problem is that I just don’t seem to be able to eat enough, I think I eat all the time, I’m always picking on nuts or fruit or granola bars etc, but I struggle to eat really large meals without feeling sick or bloated. I can’t eat breakfast until I’ve been up for at least a couple of hours without the same ill feeling. In total I take in about 1800-2000 calories a day, which is clearly enough to sustain my weight, and to be honest I would find it hard/uncomfortable to eat too much more, unless its junk food and therefore calorie dense!

Since I’ve started re-training I have noticed a definite difference in my body, it’s getting more toned, less fatty but my weight doesn’t change? I still need to lose some belly and love handle fat though! My upper body is okay, but my legs are out of proportion to the rest of my body i.e. too skinny!

To complicate things further I only have access to a home gym, with pull up bar, weights bench and free weights etc.

the training plan I’m about to change to is as follows (my current one is not split, I do a whole body work out 3 times a week), I’m not looking to get massive, but any tips you have for how to put on a bit more muscle as an ectomorph, or to sneak some high calorie foods into my diet would be greatly appreciated!

I've been told to keep my training short but intense so as not too burn too many calories, I do a quick ABS routine after each session.

I haven’t done any cardio at all in the last 6 months, except for walking the dog, but I expect to start doing some more as soon as the weather improves (its snowed again last night!). My worry is that as soon as I start cardio I will lose the fat, but my drop into the ‘unhealthy’ weight category!?

Day 1
Chest/triceps:
bench press 12 10 10 8
Incline DB bench 3 x 10
DB fly 2 x 12
Dips 12 10 10 8
Skull crushers 3 x 10

Day 2
Back/biceps
pull ups wide grip 12 10 10 8
Bent over rows 12 10 10 8
DB rows 3 x 10
BB curls 12 10 10 8
Alternate DB curls 2 x 10

Day 3
Legs/shoulders
BB squats 12 10 10 8
calf raises 12 10 10 8
Weighted lunge 12 10 10 8
BB shoulder press 12 10 10 8
Lat raises 3 x 10
Side raises 3 x 10
Upright rows 3 x 10

I understand that I need to up my calories/protein intake to grow more muscle, hopefully the Vega will help in that respect.

Thanks in advance for your help!

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 Post subject: My advice
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Finch

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 9
To me, it sounds like you have a classic malabsorption issue. Stuff isn't transforming into usable energy in your body, and is leading to bloating, indigestion, and distension.

Protein will provide the building blocks for muscle, but remember, as protein is not stored for energy anywhere in the body, you lose whatever amount you can't absorb at any given time. Then it sits in your body and putrefies as your acidity rises to get it moving. To buffer the blood's acidity, your body leeches calcium from your bones and this is a recipe for disease.

Combine protein with simple carbs (think fruit). This will cause a spike in your insulin levels which will drive the protein into your muscles. Doing this post-workout is the best as insulin sensitivity is high at this time due to the depleted glycogen stores in your muscles. As for calorie-dense foods, you could try adding lots of bananas or some avocados. Keep fruit on hand but to minimize conversion of sugar to fat, try to only eat it in the morning or after a workout. Also, don't discount the importance of leafy greens in a big salad, or a steamed kale/spinach bowl with quinoa, rice, or millet. I would also recommend cutting back on the nuts as too many are hard on the pancreas, and steering clear of processed, store-bought granola bars.

Don't get so hung up on protein. Just make sure you are getting enough WHOLE food calories in. For your goals, it sounds like you will need about 2,700 plus lots of water if you don't already hydrate hydrate hydrate.

Hope my advice helps.
Haz


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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:40 am 
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Finch
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Posts: 7
Location: Somerton, Oxfordshire, UK
Thanks Haz,

brilliant advice, ill give it a go, and I'll also look more into 'malabsorption' from your description it sounds spot on!

Thanks again

Gareth

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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Finch

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:13 am
Posts: 3
jacobsknowsbest wrote:
Thanks Haz,

brilliant advice, ill give it a go, and I'll also look more into 'malabsorption' from your description it sounds spot on!

Thanks again

Gareth


Don't know if you are still following this thread...I have the same issue with getting enough calories into my body in one day...

I think it comes down to eating foods with high calorie density but also striking a balance to make sure you are not overloading your digestive organs, and eating smaller meals at 2-3 hour intervals...There's just no way for us skinny guys (I am 140 lbs, 5'10") to get enough calories in only 3 meals a day without feeling horrible...

Weightlifting is crucial, but also waking up early to workout (6-7 AM) is important too as is going to bed early, around 930-10. I have also found that eating the last meal at around 6-630 PM ensures that food doesn't stagnate in my intestines and that I will be hungry in the morning...I have a banana before I workout, and then I eat loads of freshly rolled raw oats that have been soaked overnight...I cook them in homemade soy milk and I cook some bananas or berries into the mixture as well...I have found that making one pot meals like this helps eliminate digestive difficulty while maximizing calories...1.5 cups of rolled oats cooked in 1.5-2 cups of soy milk and mix a banana into that = approx 1100 calories. Eat an ounce of soaked, skinless, lightly toasted almonds before the oats (to ensure proper digestion) and that's another 160-170 calories. All of this can be eaten in two meals in the morning and gives you at least 1200-1300 calories, and that's just breakfast! I find I can work in at least 3 more meals after that of around 400 calories or more each...2500-3000 calories should be enough to ensure a surplus without compromising the digestive system too much...

I think that contrary to popular advice, it's not a good idea to eat too much fat like avocado or olives because this will stagnate the liver and lower overall appetite, while carb-heavy meals do not do this...fats also slow down digestion and this is the opposite of what we need...

Protein can come from tempeh, which has over 200 calories in 4 ounces, as well as other beans...I think it's also not a good idea to eat too much protein, even if its vegan because they tend to constipate in large amounts and legumes are difficult to digest...I don't think we should be eating more than 6-8 ounces a day of them...There's also the well-known acidifying effect of eating large amounts of protein...Don't know if this applies to legumes as well...Oats provide a TON of protein, more than any other grain as far as I know...

Whole grain sourdough spelt bread is a great option if you can find it in your area...I get mine from Berkshire Mountain Bakery (http://www.berkshiremountainbakery.com/) Steam it for a few minutes until it is moist (so it's not so drying and easier to digest) and fill it with a little avocado and some veggies...easy, portable snack, has at least 350 calories or more...Or you can get the Ezekiel sprouted grain tortillas and do the same...I would avoid the Ezekiel breads though as they all have yeast...I wouldn't advise filling it with beans like the typical Mexican burrito...more difficult to digest and causes heartburn for me...Better to eat it with brown rice, avocado, and veggies...or even leave out the brown rice...you can make 2 or 3 at a time, enough for the whole day...

I know this is a vegan forum, but I think small amounts of meat are probably useful for most people 3-4 times a week in very small portions...I might be incurring people's wrath by saying this, but some people do need that added nutrition...


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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:07 am 
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Finch
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:17 am
Posts: 7
Location: Somerton, Oxfordshire, UK
Hi 'Hardgainer'.

many thanks for your reply, i am indeed still following this thread, was hoping for a few more responses by now but i guess all these big dudes dont care about the skinny guys! :D

I'll definitley try some of your tips, they all sound sensible to me, being able to eat a proper breakfast would be nice rather than waiting till 10:00am.

Unfortuantley i can only work out after work and its usually quite late 8-9pm, so i try to have a meal early and then have a Vega shake post workout, i have found vega to be really good, the only protein powder i have tried that seems to be easy to digest, i tend to drink it with water or fruit juice, i think for me the big change is not drinking powders with dairy.

One tip i wont be following is eating meat though! I've been veggie/vegan too long for that, even if i could be convinced its healthier to eat meat i would take being a couple of percent down on optimum if it meant not killing anything, but each to their own, personally being vegan has really worked for me both in terms of digestive health and general well-being.

I've started to put a bit of muscle weight back on, slowly but steadily so progress is being made! I guess the plus side is that the fat content around the waist is going down easier than for a lot of people, got to find the positives somewhere!

good luck with your training and thanks agian!

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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Rabbit
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Location: Dayton, OH
Hey man, I'm 31 too, or at least I will be until August 18th. I think pretty much everyone on the planet would be an "ectomorph" at 1800-2000 cals/day. That's probably the lowest caloric intake I've seen a man say that they kept up on a regular basis. You might try slowly increasing it by a couple hundred calories every few months. I personally am not anti fruit at all, I think it's an ideal food source. I agree with your sentiments about junk food though. You will get better muscle growth from excess calories from junk food than you will from 2000 cals of ultra healthy foods like fruit/veg. Of course eating really healthy foods would be best though.

If you are following a good training program though, you are naturally going to be more hungry. Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe is a really great program, and stronglifts.com has pretty much the same program and both of them have a web-site you might check out.

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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:33 pm
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Location: Atlanta
Justin is right, about the calories. When you train everyday it is important to make sure that you caloric intake is up. In an average weight training workout an individual can burn up to 300-700 calories per hour. If your and Ectomorph like me (154lbs, 6'0'', BF% 5-6%) then that brings you to a Resting Metabolic Rate (RMR) of +-2000 calories per day. Combine that with your workout at, lets say... 500 calories then you're looking at least 2500 caloric intake budget to just maintain your weight.

When I need to increase my body weight I go crazy on brown rice, and Spinach like Popeye. I stay far away from food with low nutrition value even if it is high in calories as they hurt your recovery phase. I rather just eat more rice and Quinao.

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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:36 am 
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not qualified to say (not a doctor) but i really doubt its a malabsorption issue, you are a relatively young man eating 2000 calories a day and youre active and youre 5'11.... i am 5'4 and 120 lbs female and my weight is staying steady at 1600 cals one day 1900 the next day and you have 7 inches on me and male hormones. i think you need to start measuring your food find out your maintenance and slowly increase. how do u feel about nut butters? why arent you deadlifting? its the ultimate mass builder!! also, i suggest splitting your routine and separating shoulers from legs - too big muscle groups, especially legs and they need their own day. legs are like half your body...i think you are blessed that u dont have to worry about cardio and i am always jealous of ppl who cant eat enough. i am always hungry and want to eat more but i need to be careful. nut butters will add calories and fat which helps keep healthy testosterone levels so u really cant go wrong with that. i would stay away from processed sugar it will just go to the love handles. if you want to body recomp focus on whole foods complex carbs protein and fats. the harder u push in the gym - HEAVY COMPOUND MOVEMENTS TO FAILURE - the more likely the surplus nutrients will go to muscle and not fat. dont hold back at the gym bc you are worried about burning extra calories, fuel your body.

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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:18 am 
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Finch

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:13 am
Posts: 3
jacobsknowsbest wrote:
Hi 'Hardgainer'.

many thanks for your reply, i am indeed still following this thread, was hoping for a few more responses by now but i guess all these big dudes dont care about the skinny guys! :D

I'll definitley try some of your tips, they all sound sensible to me, being able to eat a proper breakfast would be nice rather than waiting till 10:00am.

Unfortuantley i can only work out after work and its usually quite late 8-9pm, so i try to have a meal early and then have a Vega shake post workout, i have found vega to be really good, the only protein powder i have tried that seems to be easy to digest, i tend to drink it with water or fruit juice, i think for me the big change is not drinking powders with dairy.

One tip i wont be following is eating meat though! I've been veggie/vegan too long for that, even if i could be convinced its healthier to eat meat i would take being a couple of percent down on optimum if it meant not killing anything, but each to their own, personally being vegan has really worked for me both in terms of digestive health and general well-being.

I've started to put a bit of muscle weight back on, slowly but steadily so progress is being made! I guess the plus side is that the fat content around the waist is going down easier than for a lot of people, got to find the positives somewhere!

good luck with your training and thanks agian!


Good luck with your training as well! Let me know if you have any tips for quality, calorie-dense meals or snacks that seem to work well for you...I looked at the Vega powder, but the moment I saw all those added vitamins and minerals I ran for the hills...nothing synthetic for me ever! I am also wary of things like brown rice protein and pea protein...it sounds like a refined food to me, but I may go in for it at some point with another brand that doesn't add any supplements...

I've also tried various protein/meal-replacement bars that were "organic," and "whole-foods based", etc. I thought it would be a good way to add in some calories...one bar has 200-400 calories depending on brand...But none of them digested that well for me...I think it's because 1) the manufacturer adds a lot of sugar and 2) even if they don't, all of the bars combine nuts and dried fruit, which is an absolutely horrible combination because the nuts take much longer to digest and the fruit ends up fermenting in the digestive tract...

I heard someone on this forum talking about making a sumo-wrestler style stew using a slow-cooker...He said he added 4 cups of lentils, 4 cups of split peas, and 2 cups of quinoa, and then added in whatever vegetables were on hand...cooked it all overnight and then just ate that throughout the day...He didn't say how much water to add, but it doesn't seem like such a bad idea in theory...Easy to digest one pot meal, easy to prepare and cooks overnight which saves time...I don't think it will be as calorie dense as sandwiches and wraps though...but maybe it digests more rapidly which would allow you to eat more of it overall throughout the day?

Lots to explore still...


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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:53 am 
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Finch

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:13 am
Posts: 3
I figured out an awesome way to get enough calories in without feeling bloated...

Almond Milk + Rolled oats

I buy almonds in the shell and crack them myself...very laborious process, but I find I don't mind doing it in the evening while watching a movie or something...

I soak the almonds overnight, and remove the skin in the morning. I the evening, I add roughly 1 ounce of almonds to 3 cups of water and blend them to make almond milk...no need to strain out the pulp...I then boil it and pour it over 2 cups of rolled oats and you can add raisins, seaweeds, dried or fresh fruit, small amounts of molasses or stevia to the oats...Once you have poured the boiling almond milk into the oat + fruit/whatever mixture and lightly mixed it, cover the pot and let it sit overnight...In the morning, it makes perfect muesli...No need to even heat it up, just eat that instead of other grains throughout the day...it digests very easily for me and doesn't aggravate my liver or cause heartburn or anything...

I go through great pains to prepare the oats properly because they have a high amount of phytic acid...I buy whole raw oat groats and soak several pounds of them in water for 12-24 hours...This helps neutralize the phytates...contrary to what people say online, raw oats have a similar phytase acitivity to whole wheat and most of the phytic acid gets degraded within that 12-24 hour time frame...I then dehydrate them in my dehydrator...When I'm ready to use them, I roll them using an oat roller and make the muesli described above...

It sounds labor-intensive, but it's really not...just requires some organization is all...


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 Post subject: Re: Ectomorph Training / Nutrition plan - advice needed!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:19 am 
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jungleinthefrunk wrote:
not qualified to say (not a doctor) but i really doubt its a malabsorption issue, you are a relatively young man eating 2000 calories a day and youre active and youre 5'11.... i am 5'4 and 120 lbs female and my weight is staying steady at 1600 cals one day 1900 the next day and you have 7 inches on me and male hormones. i think you need to start measuring your food find out your maintenance and slowly increase. how do u feel about nut butters? why arent you deadlifting? its the ultimate mass builder!! also, i suggest splitting your routine and separating shoulers from legs - too big muscle groups, especially legs and they need their own day. legs are like half your body...i think you are blessed that u dont have to worry about cardio and i am always jealous of ppl who cant eat enough. i am always hungry and want to eat more but i need to be careful. nut butters will add calories and fat which helps keep healthy testosterone levels so u really cant go wrong with that. i would stay away from processed sugar it will just go to the love handles. if you want to body recomp focus on whole foods complex carbs protein and fats. the harder u push in the gym - HEAVY COMPOUND MOVEMENTS TO FAILURE - the more likely the surplus nutrients will go to muscle and not fat. dont hold back at the gym bc you are worried about burning extra calories, fuel your body.


This is perfect advice! You have to make your body demand and use the increased calories! A proper tear-down in your workouts is a must to gain! And on not wanting breakfast in the morning first of all....ask yourself "how bad do I want it?". Get some ezekiel bread (cinnamon raisin is my favorite for breakfast) and put a thin layer of peanutbutter on it. Delicious. Do this first thing and you will start wanting it after a week or two. It will kickstart your hunger and allow you to take in more calories. But really the gym tear-down is the foundation with the heavy compound movements like jungleinthefrunk said!

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