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 Post subject: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:29 pm 
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Finch

Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:24 pm
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I've been trying to find a good workout routine involving just kettlebells and a barbell. Most workout routines incorporate dumbells and pull machines and I was wondering if anybody knew a good workout routine involving just kettlebells a barbell and if needed a pull-up/chin-up bar because that is all that I have access to right now. For the past years I've mainly done full body routines involving 2 lighter weight kettlebells one day, than a heavier kettlebell on another day of the week and a barbell routine on another which I did as strength and conditioning for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. But since I've stopped competing I would like to build some more mass and lay off on the cardiovascular training a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:30 am
Posts: 160
Location: Atlanta, GA
When you say "a barbell" and kettlebells - are you referring to a barbell only - or do you have a bench and/or squat rack? If all you have are a barbell, pull up bar and kettlebells you could do some great workouts - keep in mind, if you want to build mass higher volume is the key (in addition to the proper calories). I'd so something like this:

Monday
1. deadlift: work up to a heavy set of 3-5 reps; then do 5x10 w/ 60% of your heaviest set
2. lunges: 3-5 x 6-10 ea. leg
3. kettlebell swings or clean: 100 total reps (however many sets it takes - could be 5x20, 4x25, etc.)
4. abs - your choice - 5x10-20

Tuesday
1a. double kettlebell clean & press: 5x10
1b. pull-ups: 5x10
2a. kettlebell overhead triceps extension: 3-4 x 10-15
2b. barbell curl: 3-4 x 10-15
3. kettlebell snatch: 50 total reps per arm (however many sets it takes)

Thursday
1. double kettlebell front squat: 5x10
2. Romanian deadlift w/ barbell: 5x10
3. kettlebell swings or cleans: 100 total reps
4. abs - your choice - 5x10-20

Friday
1a. push-ups: 5x10-20
1b. 1-arm row w/ kettlebell or bent over barbell row: 5x10-20
2a. barbell triceps extension: 5x10
2b. barbell curl: 5x10
3. kettlebell snatch: 50 total reps per arm (however many sets it takes)

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-Scott

“Every human being is the author of his own health or disease.” -Buddha
http://www.extreme-fitness.org
http://www.scottshetler.com
http://www.plantbasedperformance.org


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:20 pm
Posts: 176
Location: Dayton, OH
I don't know a lot about kettle bells, but if all that I had was a barbell (and weights I'm assuming?) I'd start learning the Olympic lifts. There have been some Olympic lifters show up with incredible bodies like Dmitry Klokov and Pyros Dimas. Not sure how much drugs played a role in that, but that's true of everyone that has every gotten big off of any type of lifting/periodization.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:44 am 
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Manatee

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:13 am
Posts: 206
this isn't helpfull, but a regular at my gym uses alot of kettle bells, alot of very compound movements involving most of the body, he's not built very big but you can tell he works out


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:47 am 
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Manatee

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 5:03 pm
Posts: 473
muchidna wrote:
this isn't helpfull, but a regular at my gym uses alot of kettle bells, alot of very compound movements involving most of the body, he's not built very big but you can tell he works out


Agreed, i've seen thousands of skilled trainees over the years whom did not carry all that much muscle mass.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:30 am
Posts: 160
Location: Atlanta, GA
Mass is a function of high volume training - you need volume, that's why training methods like the 10x10 program (Charles Poliquin has coined it "German Volume Training") are so popular. Heavy compound movements done for lower reps do not build muscle mass. If they did there would be no light and middle weight divisions in Olympic lifting or powerlifting!

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-Scott

“Every human being is the author of his own health or disease.” -Buddha
http://www.extreme-fitness.org
http://www.scottshetler.com
http://www.plantbasedperformance.org


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:24 am 
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Manatee

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 5:03 pm
Posts: 473
Scott Shetler wrote:
Mass is a function of high volume training - you need volume, that's why training methods like the 10x10 program (Charles Poliquin has coined it "German Volume Training") are so popular. Heavy compound movements done for lower reps do not build muscle mass. If they did there would be no light and middle weight divisions in Olympic lifting or powerlifting!


Scott, The reason why such arbitrary set & rep training methods are so popular is because most people don't think using logic and reason.

Mike Mentzer explained to me some years ago, "bodybuilding is not an endurance contest, It is not the quantity of work preformed, but the quality/intensity of work that matters", he went on to say, "a bodybuilders objective is to achieve intense muscular contractions, not to demonstrate skill nor to so see how long they can mindlessly endure". I took Mikes advice, and when i reduced the volume and frequency of my training / and increased the intensity of effort, my strength and hypertrophy gains skyrocketed, I've never look back.

MM address's Charles Poliquin's criticism of his work in this video...3.45 mintues in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIkyPzzts0s


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:30 am
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Rob - how much time under tension is the muscle under in a given "HIT" set? Probably a heck of a lot more than the typical 3-10 seconds required to perform a typical work set in an Olympic Lifter's or Powerlifter's training set. Keep in mind the definition of intensity is the correlation to one's rep maximum or RM. Therefore a set performed at 95% 1RM is much more intense than a set of 10 performed at 80% 1RM. Often times people refer to a set that requires a tremendous amount of effort to perform as "intense". That being said there are many ways to increase a muscle's time under tension. Poliquin likes to use specific tempos that accentuate the eccentric phase of a lift to accomplish this. And while he's often been a critic of Mentzer's work (and many other physical culture authors) he's never said it isn't effective-but once the physical organism adapts to that specific methodology it's time to change the stimulus. If you look at his entire GVT program (most do not get past the first phase which is the 10x10 phase) you'll see a dramatic reduction in volume and increase in intensity (as defined as RM). In fact he's often fond of saying "the best program is the one you are currently not doing".

Ultimately for most people a higher volume approach is going to be the easiest way to gain mass. Not saying people wouldn't benefit from HIT training - but look at the programs of the majority of competitive bodybuilders and you'll see moderate to moderately heavy weights and a high number of sets and reps interspersed with periods of higher intensity training (similar to a powerlifter's approach) to develop inter- and intra-muscular coordination. There are those who've thrived on super heavy weights all the time (i.e. Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, etc.) but going balls to the wall all the time can also lead to many injuries, Dorian in particular had quite a few. The most effective programs are going to utilize all of the above with smart periodization to maximally benefit each individual (undulated periodization is a fantastic means for balancing volume and intensity). It's always best to have multiple tools to get the job done than to rely on one all the time, IMO.

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-Scott

“Every human being is the author of his own health or disease.” -Buddha
http://www.extreme-fitness.org
http://www.scottshetler.com
http://www.plantbasedperformance.org


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:30 am
Posts: 160
Location: Atlanta, GA
Rob - also, sets and reps aren't "arbitrary". The fact is many "skilled lifters" cannot afford to add extra muscle mass when competing in weight class sports. The goal of bodybuilding is to develop a tremendous amount of lean mass, the bigger, leaner and freakier the better. That same approach would ruin a weightlifter or powerlifter who is trying to maintain a weight class. I have a lifter I coach who has totalled elite in the 114 and 123 class, and master in the 148 class. He regularly lifted weights 3-4 times his bodyweight in squat and deadlift training and 2-3 times his bodyweight in bench press training-usually sets of 1-3 reps and never exceeding 4-5 reps in a set - and was able to stay within weight class limits without any problems as the time under tension of these sets rarely exceeded 15 seconds. This was accomplished by lifting very heavy weights with very low volume, after warm-ups were completed usually 1-3 work sets. When he needed to move up in his weight classes we did it very quickly by adding higher volume supplementary work (moderate to moderately heavy weights for multiple - usually 3-4 - sets of 8-12).

_________________
-Scott

“Every human being is the author of his own health or disease.” -Buddha
http://www.extreme-fitness.org
http://www.scottshetler.com
http://www.plantbasedperformance.org


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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Manatee

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 5:03 pm
Posts: 473
Scott Shetler wrote:
Rob - how much time under tension is the muscle under in a given "HIT" set? Probably a heck of a lot more than the typical 3-10 seconds required to perform a typical work set in an Olympic Lifter's or Powerlifter's training set. Keep in mind the definition of intensity is the correlation to one's rep maximum or RM. Therefore a set performed at 95% 1RM is much more intense than a set of 10 performed at 80% 1RM. Often times people refer to a set that requires a tremendous amount of effort to perform as "intense". That being said there are many ways to increase a muscle's time under tension. Poliquin likes to use specific tempos that accentuate the eccentric phase of a lift to accomplish this. And while he's often been a critic of Mentzer's work (and many other physical culture authors) he's never said it isn't effective-but once the physical organism adapts to that specific methodology it's time to change the stimulus. If you look at his entire GVT program (most do not get past the first phase which is the 10x10 phase) you'll see a dramatic reduction in volume and increase in intensity (as defined as RM). In fact he's often fond of saying "the best program is the one you are currently not doing".

Ultimately for most people a higher volume approach is going to be the easiest way to gain mass. Not saying people wouldn't benefit from HIT training - but look at the programs of the majority of competitive bodybuilders and you'll see moderate to moderately heavy weights and a high number of sets and reps interspersed with periods of higher intensity training (similar to a powerlifter's approach) to develop inter- and intra-muscular coordination. There are those who've thrived on super heavy weights all the time (i.e. Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, etc.) but going balls to the wall all the time can also lead to many injuries, Dorian in particular had quite a few. The most effective programs are going to utilize all of the above with smart periodization to maximally benefit each individual (undulated periodization is a fantastic means for balancing volume and intensity). It's always best to have multiple tools to get the job done than to rely on one all the time, IMO.


I think its obvious i'm not talking about one rep max's.
However if were talking about 1 set to failure vs lets say 5-10 sets of 10 reps with the same weight using moderate resistance, then i would say not only i and everyone i've ever trained found one set to failure training to be more productive, thousands upon thousands of others have too. And since i and they achieved our goals by spending far less time in the gym, that makes Hit a much more efficient way to train.
Back in the day Scott, bodybuilders used full body workouts 2-3 days per week, then steroids came reared their ugly head, before long bodybuilders were in the gym training 4 hours a day, 6 days a week and performing 20 sets per bodypart. Overtraining and volume training is the very reason why most natural bodybuilders fail to ever achieve their goals.

Listen to the video i posted Scott, you'll hear that indeed Poliquin does actually state that H.I.T doesn't work year round, of course the evidence would suggest otherwise as Mike point's out. Indeed as you point out other authors have criticized MM's work, that said, many other world class highly experienced trainers do agree with him, Arthur Jones and the theory of H.I.T.

Btw, Dorian's has since explained that his injuries all happened during pre-contest, he never suffered an injury in the off season while lifting the heaviest resistance. He admitted, using high stress techniques was not a good idea during pre-contest, he said he would have been better just training to mere failure. Dorian also admitted that if it wasn't for H.I.T, he would never have been Mr O, this efficient training style is what made him, while hes then chief competition (Flex Wheeler, Kevin Leverone, Shaun Ray, and Nasser EL Sonbaty) all volume trained 6 days a week.

I agree with what your saying with regards to adaption, in fact i posted a thread here called adaption and variation (seems to have went right over everyone's head).
Just like when trying to achieve a sun tan, the present's of intense sun light stress is always required. Yes their are those who can tolerate exposure to intense sunlight stress better than others, however that does not contradict the fact that in every case intense sunlight stress is an absolute requirement for stimulating a sun tan. The same is true with exercise. Intense exercise is a absolute requirement for building muscle year round. This can be achieved be simply regulating volume and frequency.


Last edited by HIT Rob on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 day split involving only kettlebells and a barbell?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Manatee

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 5:03 pm
Posts: 473
Scott Shetler wrote:
Rob - also, sets and reps aren't "arbitrary". The fact is many "skilled lifters" cannot afford to add extra muscle mass when competing in weight class sports. The goal of bodybuilding is to dev elop a tremendous amount of lean mass, the bigger, leaner and freakier the better. That same approach would ruin a weightlifter or powerlifter who is trying to maintain a weight class. I have a lifter I coach who has totalled elite in the 114 and 123 class, and master in the 148 class. He regularly lifted weights 3-4 times his bodyweight in squat and deadlift training and 2-3 times his bodyweight in bench press training-usually sets of 1-3 reps and never exceeding 4-5 reps in a set - and was able to stay within weight class limits without any problems as the time under tension of these sets rarely exceeded 15 seconds. This was accomplished by lifting very heavy weights with very low volume, after warm-ups were completed usually 1-3 work sets. When he needed to move up in his weight classes we did it very quickly by adding higher volume supplementary work (moderate to moderately heavy weights for multiple - usually 3-4 - sets of 8-12).



When i said about such arbitrary set and rep methods, i was talking about arbitrary set and rep "systems" that are based on two numbers matching, ie the 10x10, or 8x8 or 6x6 or the ever popular 5x5. When i began training i used the Gironda style 8x8 (i was under the child like notion that more was better), i would always achieve a great pump, however in more recent times i have used Brain Johnston's H.I.T techniques (J-Reps, 1 1/4 reps and cluster sets) that have produced the same level of congestion within the muscle with just one set. These techniques are more bodybuilding orientated as they allow for more contractions per unit of time, and at the same time, still fall under the basic principles of H.I.T, that is intense, brief and infrequent exercise.
I also feel that its an arbitrary notion to train certain bodyparts on certain days of the week, intense exercise has a systemic effect on the entire physical system, not just the localized muscles, the body as a whole, recovers when it recovers.

Best
Rob


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