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 Post subject: A bugs life
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:13 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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Is it just me, or do I see all life as equal? Bugs, plants, animals, etc.? I have a hard time killing bugs for this reason. I will only do so for the welfare of our family (mainly the dog), but either than that, I like helping them if they are stuck or on the walls.

However there is one life that I do not put into this regard, and this is our race. Our race has done enough to show that we definitely do not belong here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:27 am 
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Elephant
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Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
I disagree with your take on humans. We have just as much right to exist and live here as any other creature. I think the problem is lumping them all in together rather than seeing humans as individuals.

I bet the same would happen if you lumped all bugs together. If 1 cockroach showed up in your kitchen, you might like me, just take it outside and let it go. Now if 1,000 showed up? I'd be on the phone with the exterminator in no time and you probably would too.

I don't think there is anything more wrong with humans than other creatures. There are just too many of us in too little space. :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:50 am 
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Gorilla
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Im not a speciest. I see all forms equal. anytime a bug comes into my house. Im always trying to get em back outside. mosquitos and things like that I will shoo away cause I dont wanna get bit. but i dont go swatting flies anymore. I try to capture them gently and let em go back outside.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:21 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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michaelhobson wrote:


I bet the same would happen if you lumped all bugs together. If 1 cockroach showed up in your kitchen, you might like me, just take it outside and let it go. Now if 1,000 showed up? I'd be on the phone with the exterminator in no time and you probably would too.



I think that I would move out of there, rather than be responsible for the death of numerous bugs - even though they are disgusting and make my hair stand up!

It sucks to be a cockroach. They certainly didnt ask to be born cockroaches - i am sure every non-human would have wanted to be born human. They werent as lucky as we were though. I cannot hold that against them - its not their fault. I would feel extremely guilty for being responsible for an extermination, but that is not to say that I dont mind living with cockraoches. I am actually a germ o phobic obssessive compulsive germ freak. So i would have to move out of there.


My friend's backyard had loads of field mice. Instead of calling an exterminator, she just moved out.

As far as kollision's "jadedness" when it comes to humans, I can easily understand where he is coming from. Humans are the one species that have caused tremendous suffering and destruction in this world, to other humans, to animals, and to the environment. . As one quote goes, "Man, do not pride yourselves on your superiority to the animals, for they are innocent, and you with all your greatness defile the earth." I am sympathetic to this sentiment. Human nature, GENERALLY, is selfish and greedy (obviously this is a HUGE generalization). How many people have seen Meet your Meat and are STILL not vegan? I rest my case.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:09 pm 
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Elephant

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Nat said it best, thanks girl! You have a way with words :D

And Michael, the reason I have such distaste is because look at all the destruction we have caused. When we go to war, we over look that we are killing animals, the environment, plants, bugs, etc. We are now searching for oil and Exxon is drilling in the artic, the HOME of the artic animals. We clear forests and millions upon millions of creatures lose their homes. We do vivisections on innocent animals by opening them up, burning them, putting foreign objects in them, poisoning them, etc. all while they are alive.

Now what has any other species done to this world? Nothing. If anything, they keep the balance within this world, it is us who destroy it. Balance can also mean when we introduce new species of animals into new ecosystems, which ends up distrupting the animal and vegetation life.

As for the 1,000 bugs, I'd try my best to seal it up. However, its not their fault that they are in your kitchen. It is mans idea of owning land, or actually European idea. Bugs have just as much right to be whereever they want to be.

Like Nat and I talked about, if there were bugs and you were forced to kill them, its not your fault. At the same time, its not their fault that they are there as well.

This is not a good comparison between bugs and humans, as humans do destroy things conciously, knowing the consequences full well. And many humans are just down right evil.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:23 pm 
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Elephant
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I'm "speciesist." I think that humans have interests that are worth greater consideration than those of, for example, mosquitoes. I base my philosophy of inherent value on synaptic connections (or gangliatic connections for those animals which have those). I generally value a human more than a gorilla; a gorilla more than a cow; a cow more than a chicken; a chicken more than a grasshopper; and so on. There are cases though, where I may value the life of a gorilla over a human - for example, if a sickly, elderly human and a healthy young gorilla were trapped in a burnign building, and I could only save one - I might save the gorilla. Also, I don't consume animal products, because, for example, I believe that the interest a cow has in its preserving its life outweighs the interest that a human, who has access to an abundance of healthy and good tasting plant-based foods has in eating the cow for dinner. On the other hand, I don't believe that, for example, a tick has a greater interest in living than I have in preventing the potential spread of Lyme disease by a killing a tick I find on my body.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:41 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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The point is, why kill when you dont have to? Nobody here i dont think is saying that let the tick be on your body, and risk your own health. Nobody is nuts on these boards - nobody is saying live among thousands of disease spreading cockroaches just to be a nice guy. But choose a humane course of action - one that results in less suffering or killing. Frankly, i dont think that anything less is consistent with veganism. There must be a better way than extermination, although i dont know for sure because i have never had to look into it.


I dont think that squishing bugs, especially when you could have easily removed them or kept them out by other non-lethal means, is consistent with veganism.

And, arguably, bugs are even MORE defenseless than the animals you mention - cows, gorillas, etc etc. And, in the word's of one peacemaking man, the more helpless a creature is, the more deserving it is of protection by man from the cruelty of man.

Yet, we dont like them and even many of us vegans dont readily accept them into our circle of compassion because they are even MORE different from us than other animals. And there it creeps up again, that "They are different and therefore inferior attitude" that I detest so much.

I can just see the :shock: look upon the faces of specieist individuals reading this - "Oh my god is she saying that my life is worth the same as a cockroach's life????!!!!!!." if that is how you are interpretting this, you have missed the point.

Compassion and empathy with those that are unfortunate enough to be born non-human, that is the point people, so just chill with the specieist outrage 8)


Bug squishing vegans annoy me :evil:


Last edited by compassionategirl on Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:47 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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willpeavy wrote:
I base my philosophy of inherent value on synaptic connections (or gangliatic connections for those animals which have those). I generally value a human more than a gorilla; a gorilla more than a cow; a cow more than a chicken; a chicken more than a grasshopper; and so on. .


I have no idea what "synaptic connections" are. care to explain?

But it sounds like either your value assigning is contingent upon the size of the creature or among intelligence of the creature.

???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:09 pm 
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Elephant

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I'm not sure why a synapse has anything to do with the inherent value of a creature. Can you elaborate on your views Will?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:03 pm 
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Manatee
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compassionategirl wrote:
Bug squishing vegans annoy me :evil:


Damn, lost another friend. ;) At a vegetarian conference I attended in Portland several years ago, I witnessed a man smack a mosquito. I leaned over and whispered in his ear (jokingly), "Sorry sir, you have to leave now."

Sorry guys, mosquitoes, ticks, fleas and other parasites exist only to weaken the herds that they infest, including the human herd. If they get within reach of me, they die. And I will chase a cockroach down.

I don't honestly believe ANY of them are self-aware, and I'm certain that hive-mentality insects (bees, ants, etc.) are not.

Non-parasitical insects and arachnids I leave alone, even if they're annoying me. Spiders get escorted back outside.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:55 am 
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Elephant

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I thought Veganism was about compassion?

If this is the case, how can we say "We include some of you, and the rest of you can just go back". This is basically peoples approach to those that eat meat and do experiments on animals. "We include people, and the rest of you we don't care".

As for Bug squashing vegans, that do it just because its annoying or just because they are there, I find it hypocritical.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:21 am 
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Elephant
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Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
kollision wrote:
I thought Veganism was about compassion?

If this is the case, how can we say "We include some of you, and the rest of you can just go back". This is basically peoples approach to those that eat meat and do experiments on animals. "We include people, and the rest of you we don't care".

As for Bug squashing vegans, that do it just because its annoying or just because they are there, I find it hypocritical.


First, I think our viewpoints are about the same about other species. However, we all draw our line in the sand every day. Have you ever been out to a movie on a summer evening? I would guess at a minimum several hundred bugs ended their life on the front of your car. Was it worth taking all those lives to see a movie? Maybe we shouldn't see movies? Maybe we shouldn't go hiking, no chance then to have to kill a tick. Maybe we shouldn't help needy animals, no chance to ever have to kill fleas then?

As humans we have a conscience and decisions to make. As vegans we make the best choices we can every day. :D

Nat, I don't think moving out of an infested house and running away from the situation solves the problem. If you stayed and allowed all the rest of the creatures to stay with you, that would make more sense. Moving out means just as certain death, via the next tenant, as it would by calling the exterminator. And if you own a home, just moving out really isn't an option. If you are poor, just moving out isn't an option. Just for the record, I hate exterminators and would only use them as a last resort for any creature.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:55 pm 
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Elephant

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Quote:
As humans we have a conscience and decisions to make. As vegans we make the best choices we can every day. Very Happy


More the reason why we have more responsibilty than the normal person. As for vegans, you are right taht we make the best choices that we can. As for a movie on a summer evening, I rarely go to the movies and if I do, its in theaters.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:04 pm 
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Elephant
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kollision wrote:
As for a movie on a summer evening, I rarely go to the movies and if I do, its in theaters.


Well, I meant the drive there. Maybe you live in the city and don't need to drive? I hope so, that is what I am working toward. It was just an example really, driving anywhere on a summer evening means taking hundreds of lives, but I don't see many vegans complaining about it.


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 Post subject: I agree!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:50 pm 
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Rabbit

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:04 pm
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Location: Clearwater, FL
I save everything I can! I pick up cockroaches with kleenex and put them back outside. I try to save earthworms that come out of the grass and that may die on the pavement. I have run in the middle of a busy intersection to save a puppy that ended up getting hit. Because of my bf and I, the dog made it and was adopted. I do everything i can, including volunteering at the SPCA and when I lived in MI, I worked with the anti-cruelty society.

I am very iffy about the human race. Children I feel are like animals. Helpless and need to be protected. As far as adults, we do enough destruction to this earth and to everything else. We cannot even treat other humans right, let alone treat animals or children right.

I just do the best I can in my life to not harm anything. I do not litter, I do not hurt other creatures and I do not hurt other people. Bugs are living breathing beings too and feel pain. I do everything I can to save them!

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Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is of you - Emerson


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