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Vegan Sources for Vitamins E and B12?


sirdle
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Have any of you analyzed your diet to see if you are getting the right amount of vitamins and minerals?

 

I have been experimenting with mixing different vegan foods together and keeping track of the nutrients in each. My goal is to get all the nutrients I need by eating natural, vegan food without taking any supplements.

 

Even with 2 big salads a day I can get only about 50% (7-8 mg) of the vitamin E suggested by the Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine, National Acadamies. (1C brocolli = 1.3 mg, 1/2C spinach = 1.7 mg). How do you get your vitamin E?

 

And I can't get any Vitamin B12. Are there any vegan sources of B12 other than supplements?

 

Thanks

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Hi Sirdle.

 

I don't know exact information by heart, but it should be fairly easy to find this in the internet.

 

Anyway, as far as i know, Vit. E is in nuts and seeds.

 

B12 is another matter. Some say it's in algae, some say it's in fermented food (like yeast, sauerkraut, miso), but others disagree and claim that those are only analogons of the real cyanocobalamin and as such useless if not harmful.

Some suggest that eating a vegan diet (esp. raw vegan) changes the intestinal flora so that the B12 produced there can be absorbed, which is normally NOT the case.

The only sure source i know is unwashed organically grown vegetables. The bacteria on the outside contain small amounts of B12.

 

As far as i know, the matter is still not solved sufficiently. I take a multivit. supplement that also contains B12.

 

Greetz,

Daywalker

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The only sure source i know is unwashed organically grown vegetables. The bacteria on the outside contain small amounts of B12.

 

I surely wouldn't count on dirty vegetables for B12!!!

 

A supliment or fortified foods is the only way to go. B12 deficiency among vegans who don't take supliments or eat fortified foods is not at all uncommon. The effects are serious and can even lead to permanent brain damage in severe cases. All vegan nutrition experts and current vegan literature call for a supliment.

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IMO there is no need to be 'natural'. Nature often sucks big time, check out discovery channel. I eat fortified stuff and take multi vitamins, although there is arguments about how good they really are.

 

I surely wouldn't count on dirty vegetables for B12!!!

 

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Thanks guys. What about vitamin E? Do you take supplements? Or do you get it all from your diet?

 

I have read quite a lot about vegan nutrition lately, but don't recall any particular concern for vitamin E. It is abundant in soyfoods, whole grains, vegetable oils, nuts and seeds. I have never used an E supliment, though it may be in fortified foods that I eat.

 

I'll double check my vegan nutrition book, just to make sure. "Becoming Vegan" is a must read for any vegan, no matter how well informed you may already think you are. It has current scientific information and is not biased by any vegan myths such as getting b12 from unwashed veggies.

Edited by michaelhobson
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Oops, sorry.

You're absolutely right, Michael, i chose the wrong words

 

What i intended to say was:

Unwashed vegetables definitely contain B12, THAT'S for sure. NOT that it is a sure source for the vitamin! Sorry, if i wasn't clear about that

The other sources i mentioned are not undisputed, therefore i didn't want to call them "sure".

 

As i said, i use a supplement...

 

Oops again...

 

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Oops, sorry.

You're absolutely right, Michael, i chose the wrong words

 

What i intended to say was:

Unwashed vegetables definitely contain B12, THAT'S for sure. NOT that it is a sure source for the vitamin! Sorry, if i wasn't clear about that

The other sources i mentioned are not undisputed, therefore i didn't want to call them "sure".

 

As i said, i use a supplement...

 

Oops again...

 

 

It's all good!

 

In my recent reading, there have been far too many accounts of vegans

suffering from B12 deficiency. Considering the serious effects of B12

deficiency, I just want to make sure we take it seriously.

 

The early days of the vegan movement made far too much effort to try

and convince people that vegan is the natural diet of mankind etc. It may or may not be, but we need to be careful not to ignore scientific evidence

that calls for needed supliments.

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We have talked about B-12 on other posts. Rob pointed out that if cows dont need it why do we? Cows probably do need some and get it but from dirty grass. A vegan book even said we clean our veggies too much and wash away b-12. Your body does not even need a daily dose of b-12. Nat where did you read far too many vegans have a deficiency, and that veganism is not a natural diet? In my paper I used sources that said the early humans probably were vegan except for a bug or two that happened to be on their fruit. I agree with eating fresh organic veggies, you all can do what you want. I even supplement but i probably am just wasting money.

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I thought I had read that B12 was produced by bacteria somewhere between the small and large intestines in humans. The large intestine (if I remember correctly) does not have the ability to absorb nutrients, so, even though humans make their owe B12, we can not absorb it into our body and need suppliments. I can't find the source for this claim, though. Cows and other animals have different digestive systems and their bacteria produce B12 in areas where it can be absorbed.

 

I did run across this today from Health and Fitness Excellance by Robert Cooper 1989. He is summarizing an article from M. J. Albert, Nature 283, (1980): 781-782.

It was thought for many years that vegetarians were deficient in vitamin B12. But by the early 1980s, these conclusions were judged premature or based on scientific oversights. Sophisticated research techniques have revealed that vitamin B12 is made by bacteria high enough in the human intestinal tract that it can be absorbed into the body. And the absorption of B12 is reportedly as high as 70% for vegans, compared with 16% in meat eaters.

Has anybody run across anything more recent?

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Below is an excerpt from Vegan Outreach's "vegan health" project web site. It is a must read for any vegan. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions about dirty veggies and intestinal bacteria being good sources of b12 after reading it.

 

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/

 

Does Vitamin B12 Matter?

 

There are two types of B12 deficiency: mild and overt.

 

Overt B12 Deficiency:

 

B12 protects the nervous system. Without it, permanent damage can result (e.g., blindness, deafness, dementia). Fatigue, and tingling in the hands or feet, can be early signs of deficiency. B12 also keeps the digestive system healthy.

 

Mild B12 Deficiency:

 

By lowering homocysteine levels, B12 also reduces the risk of heart disease, stroke, and other diseases. Vegans and near-vegans who do not supplement with vitamin B12 have consistently shown elevated homocysteine levels. See the section Homocysteine, B12, Vegetarians, and Disease.

 

B12 is generally found in all animal foods (except honey). The overwhelming consensus in the mainstream nutrition community, as well as among vegan health professionals, is that plant foods do not provide vitamin B12. Despite this, some vegan advocates still believe that "plant foods provide all the nutrients necessary for optimal health" and, therefore, do not address vitamin B12 when promoting the vegan diet. Other vegan advocates acknowledge the need for B12, but only as an afterthought.

 

The result is that many vegans do not eat B12 fortified foods or supplements. Many have developed overt B12 deficiency. In some cases, the symptoms have cleared up after taking B12 supplements, but not everyone has been so lucky.

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Another important and ongoing study that you can be a part of:

 

http://veganhealthstudy.org/veganhealthstudy.htm

 

Vitamin Deficiencies:

 

The Vegan Health Study confirms numerous other studies that vegans who do not supplement their diets with vitamin B-12 are at definite risk for deficiency of vitamin B12. The effects of vitamin B-12 deficiencies may appear as soon as 6 months after adopting a purely plant-based diet, or may not appear following consumption of an exclusively vegan diet for 10 years or more.

 

Vitamin B-12 deficiencies:

 

Vitamin B12 deficiency has numerous negative consequences for health:

 

Artery Damage:

 

When vitamin B12 levels fall, homocysteine levels in the blood begin to rise. Homocysteine is a waste product of the metabolism of the amino acid, methionine. Elevated levels of homocysteine can damage the inner surfaces of arteries and in doing so promote deposition of cholesterol plaques - thus elevating the risk of heart attacks and strokes.

 

Neurological Damage:

 

Peripheral nerves – numbness and tingling and burning sensation in extremities and profound muscular fatigue.

 

Spinal cord injury – a serious form - subacute combined degeneration - may cause paralysis and be irreversible.

 

Other neurological hazards of vitamin B12 deficiency: dementia and depression in adults.

 

Risks to children:

If mother is B-12 deficient while pregnant: birth defects.

 

If mother is B-12 deficient while breastfeeding: nerve and brain damage, poor weight gain and “failure to thrive syndrome.”

 

If child is B-12 deficient during infancy and adolescence: impaired intellectual function impairment.

 

Blood system damage:

 

Vitamin B12 deficiency leads to macrocytic anemia (abnormal shape and function of red blood cells), causing weakness, fatigue, irritability and inability to concentrate.

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Hey, Sirdle, did you recently go vegan or vegetarian? I thought I remember from some of your previous posts that you said you were one of the only non-vegs on the board, but now it looks like you might be trying it out and you have that cool da Vinci quote as your signature. If so, how bout a pre-emptive "WOOT"!

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Well here is the story (you did ask).

 

My longtime philosophy-of-life is simply incompatiable with the concept of "animal rights." However, based on the comments made by many people on this board, and due to the overwhelmingly positive support that everybody has shown, I am coming to believe that philosophy may be wrong. So I am trying to reconcile the two viewpoints and find a common philosophical ground. It is not easy. I may, in the end, reject either my philosophy or the concept of "animal rights," but I don't think I'll need to.

 

So I won't claim to be an "ethical vegan" (and maybe I never will). But I do think that from a health and fitness standpoint, veganism is the best approach to Life, the Universe, and Everything. About 2 weeks ago, I stopped eating meat (and all that non-meat food like chicken and fish ), and eggs. I still do eat some yogurt and cheese... mostly for logistical reasons... but I have switched to soy milk.

 

So that is it. I hope to keep learning and growing, and I thank everybody here for being so kind, and helpful, and understanding.

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That's really cool, man. I hope I didn't put you on the spot.

 

It takes a lot to challenge and overcome long-held philosophies. I know a lot of people who seem to agree with veganism, but because of how they were raised or because they've been eating meat for so long, they can't seem to readjust their lifestyle.

 

As far as "animal rights," it might just be a semantical thing. Admittedly, it sounds a little silly, as if animals will soon be granted the right to vote or something. There are so many ways to approach the ethical necessity of vegetarianism, but in the end, I think it's a simple as shedding a little mercy to the least of us. And certainly not killing is better than killing, so on that basis alone - with a value judgment attached - I find it difficult to not recognize the ethical aspect of the lifestyle.

 

Vegetarian or not, though, we're glad to have you here!

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This is an interesting thread for me, because my brother and I, (we are both vegan) were discussing the whole B12 issue. I think just like all vitamins it is essential for human health. However, I think the issue has been overemphasized in the vegan community and was mainly just propagated by people who were looking for things to find "wrong" or "unnatural" about the vegan diet. Those same people would say that B12 can't be found directly in plant foods, so for vegans the vitamin would have to be supplemented...so how natural is the vegan diet if those following it have to by synthetic supplements to maintain health? (that is the connection people looking to dispell the vegan diet make time and time again) Therefore, I feel that when people claim B12 absolutely must be supplemented, they are doing a disservice to the vegan diet. If our diet cannot be sustained simply by eating what God has provided in nature, without any refinement by human hands, that it cannot be man's intended diet. Otherwise we'd be defying the laws on nature. I definitely don't think that we are defying the laws of nature living this diet. I think we are truly eating man's intended diet and nature, in its natural state will sustain us. Some studies I have seen state exactly as DayWalker said in his posting, an adequete B12 amount can be found simply by eating unwashed, organic fruits and vegetables. (And I thought I was the only one who has ever heard that concept.) I have an organic garden at my house and I get much satisfication and nourishment just by trying to eat some of the foods raw, right of the vine. Besides, thoroughly washing foods starts to take away some of the nutrients off the skin as you start to "exfoliate" the fruit or vegetable. I have also heard that the amount of B12 we require in our diets is so minimal. For many of us who haven't been vegan our entire lives, we are still with more than enough of the vitamin in our bodies from our days of consuming animal products. I have read that B12 is stored in the body for long periods of time and that further makes the amount we need to ingest even more minimal. Think about it - if this vegan diet is so natural and so intended for us by the Creator himself, than why wouldn't we be able to find everything we need directly in nature?!!! Futhermore, B12 is fortified in so many of the vegan food today, soymilk and the like, that it is even less of an issue. But even so, I for one, will continue to believe that adequete B12 intake can be maintained by eating foods straight off the vine, right in nature itself!

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I agree, DanDz.

 

The point is,

so how natural is the vegan diet if those following it have to by synthetic supplements to maintain health?

I think we are truly eating man's intended diet and nature, in its natural state will sustain us.

The average vegan diet is far from being "natural". Soy cream, pudding, chocolate, vegan hot dogs etc. are refined food. Eating 100% raw, on the other hand, is not easy when you live in a city. The plants we harvest have not the same amount of nutritients as plants that grew in a jungle 1'000 years ago!

So, while i believe that a "natural" vegan diet wouldn't lead to malnutrification, i also think that nowadays it's better to supplement to be sure.

That doesn't imply that vegan is inferior to omnivore! When you eat the average omnivore diet, you also "have to" supplement, if not B12, it's Vit. C - or medicaments for your heart, blood pressure etc.

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As far as "animal rights," it might just be a semantical thing. Admittedly, it sounds a little silly, as if animals will soon be granted the right to vote or something. There are so many ways to approach the ethical necessity of vegetarianism, but in the end, I think it's a simple as shedding a little mercy to the least of us. And certainly not killing is better than killing, so on that basis alone - with a value judgment attached - I find it difficult to not recognize the ethical aspect of the lifestyle.

I think you are right about semantics. Right now I am leaning toward the idea that animals do not have any intrinsic rights, but rather that animal rights are a human moral issue. This avoids the idea that animals could have a right to vote or that one animal could have a right not to be eaten by another animal, and places the burden on humans where it belongs. It is an issue that deals with the interaction between humans and animals. Something along the lines of "Animals are sentient beings and, therefore, cannot be owned by humans," or "The use of force against animals is justified only in retaliation and only against those animals that initiate force."

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Vitamin B12

Think about it - if this vegan diet is so natural and so intended for us by the Creator himself, than why wouldn't we be able to find everything we need directly in nature?!!!

I am reading a book called The Paleolithic Prescription. The authors discuss recent discoveries in anthropology as well as study the diet of modern hunters and gatherers and conclude that modern fruits and vegetables have undergone 10,000 years of selective breeding by humans. As a result, humans have a lot fewer varieties to choose from and the ones that we do have contain less vitamins, minerals and fiber and more sugar than the foods that God intended us to eat. Wild einkorn wheat, for example, has 50% more protein than hard red winter wheat. They believe that B12 may have been a natural part of many foods and that it may even have been in the water supply. (This selective breeding continues. Many varieties of tomatoes are being selected so they change color sooner and remain hard longer... I had a tomato yesterday that was bright red on the outside and nice and soft, but it was green on the inside and tasted so bad I had to throw it away.)

 

Vitamin E

I think my problem with Vitamin E is that I am trying to lose weight, so I am currently not eating nuts and oils. So I plan to take a supplement until I reach my ideal body weight, then change my diet to increase the vitamin content.

 

By the way, I came across some interesting trivia concerning vitamin E. I found this under ethnic foods at http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s068g.html

It turns out that 100g of raw, beluga whale eyeballs has 1870mg of vitamin E! Roughly 6233% of the RDA! That's fine, but I think to get it you should have to kill the whale with a hand-thrown harpoon from your kayak.[/i]

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However, I think the issue has been overemphasized in the vegan community and was mainly just propagated by people who were looking for things to find "wrong" or "unnatural" about the vegan diet.

 

So? Do you really believe that both Vegan Outreach and renowned vegan physician Michael Klaper MD are anti-vegan? Did you read any of the info on their links that I posted?

 

Therefore, I feel that when people claim B12 absolutely must be supplemented, they are doing a disservice to the vegan diet. If our diet cannot be sustained simply by eating what God has provided in nature, without any refinement by human hands, that it cannot be man's intended diet.

 

If it's not "man's intended diet", then it's no good? What if your theory is incorrect and the scientific evidence is right? Should we abandon veganism?

 

Think about it - if this vegan diet is so natural and so intended for us by the Creator himself, than why wouldn't we be able to find everything we need directly in nature?!!!

 

Should we also abandon clothing and shelter? Clearly if the creator had intended for us to have them, we wouldn't have to make them?

 

But even so, I for one, will continue to believe that adequete B12 intake can be maintained by eating foods straight off the vine, right in nature itself!

 

I give up. We definitely have very different world views. I am more interested in science and theories that offer evidence and proof. Actually, I can see that you value evidence and proof too, just of a different kind than I do. The good thing is that we are all vegan, on that we can agree.

 

I even hope that you are right and we don't need any supliments. My friend Oak in Scotland has been raw food vegan for 10 years and does not supliment. He has his B12 levels tested regularly and they are fine. One person doesn't prove anything, but perhaps there is hope. Of course as Daywalker pointed out, the average vegan diet is far from "natural". How many times have most of us gone a day without eating any fruits or vegetables at all? Even when we find the time and money, most of us don't have access to fresh raw organic produce.

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Michael Hobson, I do like what you have to say. I guess it is one of those cases where we just agree about what to disagree on, but most importantly we are in accordance concerning the important issues. You do turn to science for your backing, while I turn to God. I don't dismiss scientific theory, but I think God comes first, then science. There is no science without God. We do have different views on the issue, but we are still vegan bretheren, first and foremost...and that is what is important!

 

You asked, "If it's not "man's intended diet", then it's no good? What if your theory is incorrect and the scientific evidence is right? Should we abandon veganism? " I do think that if this is not God's intended diet for man, then I would absolutely abandon vegansim. I would do such because if the vegan diet was found to be deficient then it would be defying the laws of God and nature. However, I will not abandon the vegan diet because I think it is God's intended diet and to eat vegan is to follow the laws of nature. But, then it would still be an ethical issue, not as much as a nutritional one in that instance. There would still be the issue of animal abuse and slaughter, which are sins in the eyes of God. So perhaps if I found vegansim to be deficient nutrionally in its natural state, I would revert back to some form of lacto-vegetarian, but only drink milk from certain cows, raised, respected, and loved in certain ways. However, this diet still has so many flaws and ethical problems associated with it. So again, I would be brought back to veganism; following God's plan and God's diet.

 

Also, Daywalker made some great points. He said, "The average vegan diet is far from being "natural"." He went on to speak about the altered food substances most vegans eat, from soy ice creams to veggie dogs, to puddings. I think that notion brings us back to the point that we should all be striving to eat the highest quality foods possible. Like most vegans who don't eat 100% raw foods, I myself need to strive to get to that goal or close to it. We should all strive to incorporate a greater amount of raw foods into our diets. Daywalker your point that the current vegan diet eaten by many today is not totally "natural" does not fall on deaf ears. Your point is well taken. However, although most don't eat foods totally natural, I think the fact that the diet can sustain a human being in its natural state is the key point. Also, you are right about certain plants losing their nutritional value over time. This has been rapidly occuring over the last 100 years, as fruits and vegetables have been hybridized, genetically modified, and altered to no end. Not only have fruits lost nutrional value with each successive generation, but many people old enough to recall the taste of fruits in previous years claim that they have also lost taste. The only way around this seems to be to not buy genetically modified organisms (GMO's) and search for organic, heirloom varieties. They are harder to find and probably cost a little more, but are worth it in the end.

 

Lastly, we all can only do our best to live vegan and healthy in today's world. We cannot divorce ourselves from this world, this society, and this life so we must make consolations. For example, allthough we cannot always buy organic, we should still remember we are at least buying some sort of fruit, rather than some sugar sweet. We live in a very "unnatural" world today, but the vegan diet still stands out among the rest as the most "natural." It is the most natural diet and that is why I will continue to follow it.

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That doesn't imply that vegan is inferior to omnivore! When you eat the average omnivore diet, you also "have to" supplement, if not B12, it's Vit. C - or medicaments for your heart, blood pressure etc.

 

Exactly. That's the point! Normal people have to take vitamin supplements too. They often get less vitamins than vegans already eat with their food.

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We do have different views on the issue, but we are still vegan bretheren, first and foremost...and that is what is important!

 

Agreed! I appreciate your point of view Dan, glad to have you on the board.

 

I only have one final thought on B12. I hope that all of us in our outreach work will make sure new vegans get as much information as possible. Everyone should have the opportunity to make an informed decision on such an important health issue.

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