GGreen Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Some writers tell you can only obtain it from animals products and only the B12 from animal products is absorabable by the body. Others tell you can obtain it from none animals products but that form is not absorbable by the body and it may even block the absorption of the real B12. So, What is the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 It's controversial because there is some misinformation out there. Also, some people want to believe that if a vegan diet is a natural diet meant for humans, that should mean we don't need to take any supplements (more on that later). The controversy is mostly regarding some supposed plant sources of B12, like seaweeds. These have been found in studies to contain B12 analogs, which appear to be B12, but are not assimilated by the body. (Though some people will claim them as sources of B12, this is both misleading and dangerous.) B12 is created only by bacteria, which is where animals get in in their systems in the first place. As for the "if veganism is a natural state, then why do we need B12?" argument: Humans used to be able to get it from bacteria remaining on fresh-picked and lightly rinsed produce, or from drinking water from streams, but since our water is now chlorinated and processed, and our foods are the same, this is not a current source of B12. The best thing to do as a vegan is to use a B12 supplement, which is created from bacteria in a culture. I like the Methylcobalamin spray by PUre Advantage, which www.veganessentials.com carries. Methylcobalamin is a more effective form of B12 than cyanacobalamin (which is broken down in to methylcobalamin in the body), and is what I've also used to reverse neuropathy in my diabetic cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CollegeB Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Kathryn do all french profs. know way more than just french? Or is it that you just have some extra degrees in things like biology, chemistry, etc.? You just always have the most informative answers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Kathryn do all french profs. know way more than just french? Or is it that you just have some extra degrees in things like biology, chemistry, etc.? You just always have the most informative answers.... Nope, no extra degrees, though while teaching French is my profession, my avocation is health and fitness, and I've been reading up on both since the mid-70's (and some of the reading and research and analytical skills that helped me get a PhD in French are also useful for other things). Actually, there are not too few professors in many areas who don't have much common sense or know anything outside of their area. When I was a grad student, a 'brilliant' French prof was a teaching assistant supervisor one semester. I don't know about his brilliance (because I never took an actual class from him), but he seemed like someone who would have trouble trying to figure out how to use the bus system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGreen Posted September 4, 2006 Author Share Posted September 4, 2006 It's controversial because there is some misinformation out there. Also, some people want to believe that if a vegan diet is a natural diet meant for humans, that should mean we don't need to take any supplements (more on that later). The controversy is mostly regarding some supposed plant sources of B12, like seaweeds. These have been found in studies to contain B12 analogs, which appear to be B12, but are not assimilated by the body. (Though some people will claim them as sources of B12, this is both misleading and dangerous.) B12 is created only by bacteria, which is where animals get in in their systems in the first place. As for the "if veganism is a natural state, then why do we need B12?" argument: Humans used to be able to get it from bacteria remaining on fresh-picked and lightly rinsed produce, or from drinking water from streams, but since our water is now chlorinated and processed, and our foods are the same, this is not a current source of B12. The best thing to do as a vegan is to use a B12 supplement, which is created from bacteria in a culture. I like the Methylcobalamin spray by PUre Advantage, which www.veganessentials.com carries. Methylcobalamin is a more effective form of B12 than cyanacobalamin (which is broken down in to methylcobalamin in the body), and is what I've also used to reverse neuropathy in my diabetic cat. Thanks for the info. I know that the B12 in Spirulina blocks the absorption of the real B12. If you take them at different times, I assume the real B12 will be absorbed by the body. Am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 I know that the B12 in Spirulina blocks the absorption of the real B12. If you take them at different times, I assume the real B12 will be absorbed by the body. Am I right?Yep! I'm not sure if taking them at the same time would block all the B12, as supplements usually contain several hundred times the RDA of B12, so while the B12 analogs may block some of the B12(I've read that Nori does this, perhaps more than other B12 analog foods), it may not block all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 "What Every Vegan Should Know about Vitamin B12" http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmmy Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 Actually, because plants will absorb B-12 from soil that is healthy and has a good supply of it, humans used to be able to get it from that, too. It isn't just "our food had dirt on it", it's also that plants are actually able to absorb B-12, even though they don't nowdays because we've over-farmed so much and have killed the soil using pesticides, herbicides, etc. I don't like the Veganhealth.org site because one of their doctors made the claim that vegans don't live any longer than carnists (meat-eating ones), a claim which has been proven false by new research, and they haven't removed it from their site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willpeavy Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 Do you have a link for the new research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9nines Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 Is B12 "in" meat or "on" meat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmmy Posted September 10, 2006 Share Posted September 10, 2006 No, it was in the paper, my girlfriend alerted me to it. I'll see if I can find a link. Okay, well, I found this (but it was more recent than this, just this spring/early summer): http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/aug092004/snt11.asp I'll ask her if she can find me the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Actually, because plants will absorb B-12 from soil that is healthy and has a good supply of it, humans used to be able to get it from that, too. It isn't just "our food had dirt on it", it's also that plants are actually able to absorb B-12, even though they don't nowdays because we've over-farmed so much and have killed the soil using pesticides, herbicides, etc.Any sources on that? I've read a lot on B12 and veganism, and have never heard this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuramus Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 One of the best and most comprehensive articles i have read about B12 - http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaSiren Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 I have been interested in this subject as well. I have read so much on it but find it all inconclusive one way or the other. Storm (from the garden diet), says he doesn't take supplements and has been raw for 30 years now. Some of his children have been raw vegan all their lives with no supplements. They have a check up every year and they have included a B12 check as well. These children have no deficiency. I have wondered how that could be? Also, I read on one of the sites that the percentage of vegans with a B12 deficiency per capita was no different than the omni's with the same deficiency. I find it all very fascinating, although I personally am not willing to gamble with my health until I feel more confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmmy Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Source: ... Research has convincingly shown that plants grown in healthy soil that has a good concentration of vitamin B12 will readily absorb this nutrient. However, plants grown in "lifeless" soil (non-organic) may be deficient in vitamin B12. In the United States, most of our agriculture takes place on relatively lifeless soil, decimated from years of unnatural pesticide, herbicide and fertiliser use. So the plants grown in this soil and sold in our supermarkets lack B12. Taken from The China Study by T. Colin Campbell, PhD and Thomas M. Campbell II. Source listed in book: Mozafar A. "Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with application of organic fertilizers." Plant and Soil 167 (1994) 305-311. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odidnetne Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Some writers tell you can only obtain it from animals products and only the B12 from animal products is absorabable by the body. Others tell you can obtain it from none animals products but that form is not absorbable by the body and it may even block the absorption of the real B12. So, What is the truth? The reason it's controversial is because you can make a simple statement like that, which, at face value, makes veganism look dangerous. There are so many stories of people, like SeaSiren pointed out, where people don't use supplements and don't need to supply B12. I'm sure BigBwii doesn't use them either and he keeps on trucking with no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Since some university study showed that there is no cobalt in the soil of conventionally grown foods, but there is in organically grown foods, then it may be possible that there is B12 in organic foods. (Victoria Boutenko references the study in her book "Green for life" : www.rawfamily.com ). Still, unless and until someone proves this is true (and unless and until I eat 100% organic) , I'll stick with a supplement to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odidnetne Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 I'd like to just add onto my answer and say that I think a supplement is a good idea to be safe, but don't shake with worry if at the end of the day you forgot to supplicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 I'd like to just add onto my answer and say that I think a supplement is a good idea to be safe, but don't shake with worry if at the end of the day you forgot to supplicate. Or perhaps you should. From Merriam-Webster Online: Main Entry: sup·pli·cate Pronunciation: 's&-pl&-"kAtFunction: verbInflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ingEtymology: Middle English, from Latin supplicatus, past participle of supplicare, from supplic-, supplex supplicant -- more at SUPPLEintransitive verb : to make a humble entreaty; especially : to pray to Godtransitive verb1 : to ask humbly and earnestly of2 : to ask for earnestly and humblysynonym see BEG - sup·pli·ca·tion /"s&-pl&-'kA-sh&n/ noun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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