So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

Anything else on your mind that you would like to discuss with other like-minded people.

Moderators: Mini Forklift Ⓥ, C.O., Richard, robert, SyrLinus

Message
Author
User avatar
Fallen_Horse
Elephant
Posts: 2341
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#76 Postby Fallen_Horse » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:13 pm

VeganDrew wrote: 5. Anyone who joins the US military is an unfortunate, misinformed, and ill-educated individual who we should hope won't be turned into a psychopathic murderer.
Yet they protect your ability to sit behind a keyboard and mock them.

They simply do not. The US military reduces my freedom and my safety, it does not protect me in any way, shape, or form that I want or find not morally reprehensible. The US military protects my ability to exploit people in other countries due to military hegemony, but not since the 1940s has the US military protected anyone, and almost all military activity (including, in some ways, WWII) is a criminal offense that would have our country's leaders hanged next to the Nazis at Nuremburg.

Look at Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Libya, Afghanistan, the Phillipines, East Timor, Latin America, Africa, and let's tally up where US soldiers were protecting and where they were coercing the local populace as an arm of US economic colonialism, and let's see what we come up with.

CORRECT
Learning how to be compassionate, gain wisdom, and love life.

User avatar
VeganDrew
Rabbit
Posts: 152
Age: 35
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, VA
Contact:

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#77 Postby VeganDrew » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:19 pm

Vegan Joe wrote:
VeganDrew wrote: The US military protects my ability to exploit people in other countries.

The US military protects you from other countries exploiting you. As the cloud begins to lift. lol



Yes I've heard that theory. But even if that were true the US military could protect the US at 5-10 percent its funding and manpower. The rest is egregious spending, and 100 percent goes to what I just discussed, the instances not being controversial ones.

To defend the US military for protecting us is a lot like defending the cop who beat Rodney King because "we need police."

In theory one might make that argument (though I'd disagree) but the military is a much, much larger force for exploitation and suffering than it is a protector of an idea of "freedom" that does not infringe upon the freedom of others.

Watch 'Why We Fight.'

I don't understand the cloud comment.

I've actually discussed these topics in detail before:

Obama's Unjust Policies
The ethical peril of enlisting in the military
The US' atrocious military budget

User avatar
Vegan Joe
Stegosaurus
Posts: 3735
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:12 pm
Location: Enroute to 58

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#78 Postby Vegan Joe » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:32 pm

VeganDrew wrote: Yes I've heard that theory.

Conversation over.

Happiness is a personal choice!
I am the sole source of all my sadness and joy.


"The logic of worldly success rests on a
fallacy: the strange error that our perfection
depends on the thoughts and
opinions and applause of other men."
Source: Thomas Merton

User avatar
VeganDrew
Rabbit
Posts: 152
Age: 35
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, VA
Contact:

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#79 Postby VeganDrew » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:35 pm

Well, when you put it that way I'm totally convinced.

CollegeB
Elephant
Posts: 2783
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#80 Postby CollegeB » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:20 pm

I don't need the tools of state aggression for my protection. And with the epic fails of government throughout history I don't need them either for anything.

User avatar
xveganjoshx
Elephant
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:46 pm
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#81 Postby xveganjoshx » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:02 pm

VeganDrew wrote:3. Obama is a better president than McCain would be.
Have you looked into the alternate dimension of our multiverse and seen how the world would be in an alternate reality? Or all you just speculating here?

Speculating, based on what he said in the campaign.

5. Anyone who joins the US military is an unfortunate, misinformed, and ill-educated individual who we should hope won't be turned into a psychopathic murderer.
Yet they protect your ability to sit behind a keyboard and mock them.

They simply do not. The US military reduces my freedom and my safety, it does not protect me in any way, shape, or form that I want or find not morally reprehensible. The US military protects my ability to exploit people in other countries due to military hegemony, but not since the 1940s has the US military protected anyone, and almost all military activity (including, in some ways, WWII) is a criminal offense that would have our country's leaders hanged next to the Nazis at Nuremburg.

Look at Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Libya, Afghanistan, the Phillipines, East Timor, Latin America, Africa, and let's tally up where US soldiers were protecting and where they were coercing the local populace as an arm of US economic colonialism, and let's see what we come up with.

I highly suggest 9-11 (or any other book) by Noam Chomsky, A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn, and most especially the documentary Why We Fight which is available here.

6. Serious anti-war activists have always known 1-5 and condemned Obama's wars.
There always has to be a criteria or distinction between "serious" activists and the pansies who just talk the talk, right? I mean, if you're not in the ALF, you're not a "serious" vegan, right?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. What I'm saying is that peace activists who are not holding signs to be fashionable, do not support Afghanistan.

7. Revolution.
You can fight the fight, man. I don't want to. I thought I did at one time, but I'm content living in a great country, having a comfortable home, friends, leisure activities, romantic partners, and all the wonderful things that life is worth living for, many of which I haven't even mentioned. If you want to be sprawled out on the asphault by an FBI bullet to the dome, more power to you brother, keep up the good fight.

I definitely also want to be content and enjoy the good things in life. I don't think it's a yes/no issue though. I was just listening to Democracy Now! and it turns out Martin Sheen has been arrested for anti-war activity more times than years he has been alive.

But the lifestyle we lead is afforded to us in many ways by inequality served at the end of a gun. Sometimes it's less obvious (Colombian military trained at the School of the Americas on how to terrorize and kidnap their populace, so they can privatize utilities and bring in United Fruit Company to give us cheap bananas) than others (US supporting the extermination in East Timor, current support of the Turkish government as they massacre their Kurdish population) but rest assured that what we enjoy is, in a lot of ways, at a terrible cost.

I think we have a moral responsibility to stop this any way we can.


Hey,

I appreciate the time you took to write out your well thought out post that was devoid of some of the childish ad hominem remarks of some of the earlier posters.

I respect your opinion but I disagree. That is all.

Josh
The (Vegan) Dating Coach
Buy me a drink if your gonna hit on me like that!
:glasses4: + :glasses5: = :fish:
:usa2: :usa2: :usa2:

User avatar
VeganDrew
Rabbit
Posts: 152
Age: 35
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 4:07 pm
Location: Norfolk, VA
Contact:

Re: So where is all the outcry about "Obama's War"?

#82 Postby VeganDrew » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:19 pm

Thanks, but with what do you disagree? The historical instances I mentioned are all uncontroversial, and the sources of information highly respected and uncontested.

For more information on US economic involvement in foreign countries and the benefits it confers on us, I suggest reading up on criticism of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Profit Over People is a decent book that covers such things. Iran is another gem to look at, where we had the CIA overthrow a democratically-elected president who wanted a bigger cut of his own country's oil profits, in order to install a brutal religious/military dictator who ruled for decades and caused the anti-American fervor leading to the hostage crisis.


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests