"intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

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beforewisdom
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"intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#1 Postby beforewisdom » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:32 am

These people are the ones protesting healtchare:



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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#2 Postby Addai » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:44 am

Every faction has it's crazies. Vegans sure do. Socialists sure do. Libertarians sure do. Catholics, Muslims, and more! It's most ignorant to mock those against healthcare, and even more so to portray the worst as a representation of the whole. Especially coming from a vegan, who I'm betting has had people cite the Animal Liberation Front to them, calling vegans terrorists.

I've been called intelligent a couple times in my life, so I'm just going to quote myself from the Bill O' Reilly supports healthcare thread. It should take you less time to read my few paragraphs than it did to watch that video. I'll be interested to hear your take.

The biggest problem with this bill is that the purpose is to provide everyone health insurance. It's not aimed at creating a sensible, sustainable health care system in any sense of the term. It's aimed at giving everyone insurance. I don't personally know anyone who has studied the history of health care who believes that insurance is the savior.

Doesn't anyone else see a problem in needing insurance to get a routine checkup, or a prescription for antibiotics (or insurance to purchase said antibiotics)? That's the equivalent of having home owners insurance for if you ever decide to paint your walls. Or care insurance for if a bird poops on your windshield. It's absurd. Insurance is meant for catastrophes.

You don't even need to go that far back in our countries history to a time when most people didn't have health insurance, and those who did only carried catastrophic, and yet everyone got treatment. So what happened? Basically, government got involved. We saw the birth of the HMO, and a slew of legislation over a decades time that created a third party payer system of big-business insurance companies. Combine this with changes in tort law that increased medical professionals insurance costs, and voila! You need insurance just to get your sore throat checked out.

So I guess we could create this public option, but it's completely besides the point. It doesn't address the issue. Now I grant you that other parts of the bill are helpful, but at the end of the day, I'm betting money we won't be any better off. The problems will remain, if only shift slightly as new problems emerge. We're stripping individual liberty for nothing. It's all flash to attract the masses that really don't understand our healthcare system.

But Bill O' Reilly supports it.


Personally I'd rather legislation be drafted to promote the kind of healthcare system we used to have before it got muddled up by government and turned into the monstrosity that we have today. A sustainable system of doctor-patient relationships where insurance exists only for those who want it, and only for catastrophes. Not for every time you have a tummy ache. Insurance needs to be gotten rid of, not expanded. The fact that it's necessary today should really highlight the problem [costs].

A couple really interesting things have been happening in the last year. First were the doctors who began refusing insurance and instead would give their patients a price list for services offered. These were incredibly cheaper rates, and poor Americans flocked to these sorts of places. Similar are the little clinics (not sure what they're called) that have been put up in some malls and stores around the country, where anyone can walk in, spend like $15 on a regular checkup, and the most expensive thing costs like $75. No insurance needed, and the quality of care they're getting rivals what you and I with insurance are getting.

Another cool thing I saw that was just on the nightly network news last week were clinics that do not take insurance, but instead charge a monthly fee to belong too, much like a gym membership. Prices range anywhere from 35-75 dollars a month to belong, and this covers all costs, including x-rays and such. Very affordable, fraction of the cost of health insurance, and best yet--the care at these places is significantly better than what most of us with insurance get. Significantly. Doctor-patient relationships, no third party, no worrying for the doctor about getting all the paperwork right rather than spending time treating the patient. And poor people can easily afford it. These sorts of places have actually existed for many years, but used to be only for the wealthy who would have it in lieu of insurance as the quality of care, and availability of care, was so much better.

And guess what, these ideas don't cost more money, they cost less. Spending a trillion dollars on some absurd plan that's going to remove peoples options is going to be terrible. If you were going to one of these clinics, you're now going to get fined for not having insurance. Money doesn't solve problems, but anything that requires a lot of it can be sold to an entirely ignorant public.

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#3 Postby xphilx » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:21 am

:lachmal:
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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#4 Postby CollegeB » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:25 am

This is the problem with making social issues political. Obnoxious morons come out from everywhere and they talk and talk but you know they don't fully understand what they are talking about. They only have something to say because they just watched glenn beck or michael moore.

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#5 Postby Ducati » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:50 am

I am all for socialized healthcare. It might force the government to promote a better diet to help reduce costs.
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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#6 Postby Vegan Joe » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:00 pm

Ducati wrote:It might force the government to promote a better diet to help reduce costs.


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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#7 Postby VeganDrew » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:16 pm

Everyone pay attention: Vegan Joe does not approve!

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#8 Postby xjohanx » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:10 pm

"not all americans are retarded, only about 85%"

/norweigan drunk dude at a party
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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#9 Postby Vegan Joe » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:35 pm

VeganDrew wrote:Everyone pay attention: Vegan Joe does not approve!


VeganDrew wrote:I think we should all agree to ignore Vegan Joe's comments from now on.



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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#10 Postby Addai » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:56 pm

They'll go at you Joe, but whenever I take the time to write out a developed argument, it gets ignored. It's a funny thing to support something, or criticize someone else for supporting something, without stating your own position in full, in your own words. Imo. *ducks for cover*

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#11 Postby Vegan Joe » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:14 am

Addai wrote:They'll go at you Joe, but whenever I take the time to write out a developed argument, it gets ignored. It's a funny thing to support something, or criticize someone else for supporting something, without stating your own position in full, in your own words. Imo. *ducks for cover*


As a two finger typist, I have very little interest in typing to the wall. They know the opposing positions, they just can't conceive of them. They think because it is change that it therefore must be better.

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#12 Postby VeganDrew » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:03 pm

Addai wrote:They'll go at you Joe, but whenever I take the time to write out a developed argument, it gets ignored. It's a funny thing to support something, or criticize someone else for supporting something, without stating your own position in full, in your own words. Imo. *ducks for cover*

Take a look at this thread and you'll see that it's quite the opposite. Vegan Joe cherrypicks lines from people's arguments, takes them out of context, makes a baseless assertion, and then ends it all with something smug. That's all he does.

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#13 Postby Vegan Joe » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm

VeganDrew wrote: Take a look at this thread and you'll see that it's quite the opposite. Vegan Joe cherrypicks lines from people's arguments, takes them out of context, makes a baseless assertion, and then ends it all with something smug. That's all he does.

Your whole thread was based on somebody elses youtube video, to call me out.
You didn't want to debate you just wanted to call me names. When I posted some additional information about the subject you refused to answer any of the critics, and reverted to calling me names. It has nothing to do with debating a subject. It only has to do with your hatred/ dislike for me.
Say what you will, You're still stuck with your hatred. (reason for posting in this thread)

PS I will never live up to your expectations, So I hope this makes you feel better. :D
You can't even take your own advice, and ignore me :D

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Happiness is a personal choice!
I am the sole source of all my sadness and joy.


"The logic of worldly success rests on a
fallacy: the strange error that our perfection
depends on the thoughts and
opinions and applause of other men."
Source: Thomas Merton

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#14 Postby thendanisays » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:49 pm

Addai- I agree with you and im about as liberal as they come. i believe that universal healthcare is better than what we have now-BUT i couldnt possibly agree with you more that this "solution" is more of dealing with a symptom of the much bigger problem, than actually dealing with the problem itself-that healthcare in this country is RIDICULOUS
the beginning is always today.

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Re: "intelligent" people speak out against healthcare

#15 Postby xjohanx » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:51 pm

VJ, we've been over this before. You claim that people call you names before they actually do and you call everyone "bigot".
When I said that you were doing the name calling "thing" yourself with the word bigot your reply was "well that's because you are bigots". Your replies to most valid arguments always leave me wondering if you are a troll/retarded/stupid etc etc. You post idiotic rethorical questions about Obama, gay marriage and when someone acutally takes up the discussion with you your only answer is another or the same (which again leads to me wondering if you're retarded) question. When confronted about your obvious homophobia you say childish stuff like "I'm not homophobic because my daughter knows a gay girl". The sad thing is that you give me the impression that you think you win the debates but all you really do is look stupid. Oh one of my favorite threads was the one you started and whenever someone who lived outside of the US replied you just quoted them and replied (for instance) "Sweden" and using it as an argument that our opinions weren't valid/good enough or whatever. You are really stupid. I don't know why I rant so much today but you fucking suck at debating and your opinions really make me sick.

I still think the whole political forum should be removed from VBB, it has no place here.
cubby2112 wrote:When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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