A look at Epigenetic qualities. Post Yours.

Hello everyone, I am new to the board and probably not going to be very big contributing member but... I do independently study Epigenetics.

Epigenetics refers to "overall" or rather what is being expressed, genetics. We all get what we get from our parents but different things are turned on and off throughout our lifetime. I am posting here to get an idea of how different Epigenetic qualities affect body building. I will state a few of them, and then explain some of their relations to express. Hopefully everyone will enjoy the idea of comparing them and considering what they mean.

First off, frame size.

Wrap your middle finger and thumb of one hand around the wrist joint of the other, usually to have the fingers meet where your watch would be at. You either clearly overlap, just touch, or do not touch at all. There will be varying degrees but it is really only one of the three. For example one of my wrists is almost an overlap, but not a clear one so it is really just touching.

People with a small frame (clearly overlapping) tend to be ectomorphs, or ectomesomorphs. This means they have more ectodermic tissue which is strongly associated with skin. The more ectomorphic you are the more you will have to work in order to develop muscle. Frank Zane and Bruce Lee are examples of possibly some of the most muscle toned ectomorphs (ectomesomorphs actually) that you may be familiar with. I give the as example because if you are one you should not feel like you will never build muscle, you certain can if you find what works for you. Their naturally almost non-existent body fat helps with a lot of what people want to achieve for body building. They also tend to be more andric, which means they have more of a natural gap between their legs even when their feet are together.

Medium frames tend to be mesomorphs which is strongly associated with muscle. They often have wide shoulders and smaller waists. Muscle development comes with relative ease for them. They often have low to medium body fat so definition is not hard but sometimes requires a little more size to bring it out because the amount of muscle they have actually hides some that they want to show when they do not have very low natural body fat.

Large frames tend to be endomorphs or endomesomorphs. Endoderic tissue is associated with larger internal organs and more "padded" skin in appearance. These individuals have the hardest time losing weight and showing definition. They are likely to have thrifty metabolisms and benefit from low carbohydrates for keeping excess fat down. They are also prone towards wide hips. In time of famine and such they usually do quiet well. They however typically will be the largest of anyone who works out since they have a large frame and often large muscles. They can really dwarf other other people in sheer size.

*Please note while certain things are typical, you will also find ectomorphs on large frames, anything is possible.

Finger Ratio

Do you have longer ring or index fingers? Measure on the inside starting at the crease. The shape of the hand can make for misleading guistimations, measuring is best. Often people will have one hand be the opposite of the other. It is more typical for people with longer ring fingers to be more gynic (legs touching) than andric (legs not touching), also longer fingers are prone towards being endomorphic and perhaps a wider gonial angle (the angle of your jaw from ear down to turning point that leads out to chin).

Lower Leg or Upper Leg

This one is sort of complicated to measure. The top leg is done by sitting in a chair and measuring from where the crease from torso to leg meets (a bit towards outside of body, there is a bone there, sit up straight) to the dip just before the knee cap. The lower leg is done on the outside from the tip of the ankle bone (think just past where it sticks out the most) to just past where the knob of bone sticks out below the knee cap and towards the outside of the leg.

Longer lower leg shows a high growth rate factor. Typically the longer it is the more tendency the person has to be taller. I am unsure of specific connections to muscle with this yet.

Blood Type

There seems to be small evidence of the RH factor being important towards much of anything, however the difference in ABO groups in some studies do show certain interesting factors. The Japanese use it like a horoscope and it is somewhat accurate there but you may not find the same results in such a strongly mixed background pool of an European originated area (Europe, US, South Africa, Iceland, etc). There is at least one connection to very big benefit towards not eating hard to digest meats, and that is of anyone with the A antigen (Type A or AB). This is a benefit not seen in the O or B group but by no means does that signify that there is nothing of interest in alternative diets, just that for people with the A antigen it is especially helpful for their health. This is that people with the A antigen have less intestinal alkaline phosphate in their intestines, or rather it is inoculated perhaps by the A antigen. Intestinal Alkaline Phosphate helps with the digestion of fats, and since the fats in meat (red in particular) are saturated, people with the A antigen do not process them and end up with them in their cardiovascular system which as we all [should] know leads towards plaque, cholesterol, and the sorts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16412386

Anyways Thanks for entertaining me on this. Perhaps this will be very fascinating to see the kind of results vs. genetic indicators. Based on them I would certainly encourage slightly different approaches to nurture the different shapes of body and muscle, by the way, but I am sure most of you are fairly aware of that predicament.

Thanks!

By the way, I am

Frame Size : Just Touching (on the lower end towards overlapping)

Finger Ratio: Both ring fingers are longer with narrow gonial angle

Legs : Lower is long, and I reached my final height or close to much faster than most people I grew up around.

Blood Type ; I am A - and my family is A or AB on one side with a history of cardiovascular problems so it is safe to say I wish them to stop eating at least red meat. It would confuse them if I told them that being vegan would actually help them, make them lose weight, considering that they have traditionally been big meat eaters (and weight gainers).

What is the point of this?

My curiosity of the different shapes and genetics of people. Perhaps there will be correlations to who wants to body build, who excels at it (besides the obvious mesomorph), or some interesting pattern may come up.

Plus I think it is interesting so I assume others do as well.

My personal opinion is that trying to classify people based on some physical correlations, not matter how good the intent, ends up being used for unethical purposes.

In addition, it can force upon the subject the mindset that they are of a certain type and to change that is difficult or impossible. I was told I was an endomorph, I always will be an endomorph, and nothing I can do will change that. I believed that for most of my life. I just accepted that I will be fat for life and that it is genetics. Well, it wasn't genetics, it was a poor lifestyle I inherited from my parents that made me obese. Most people would classify me as a mesomorph now.

I also eat a very high carb diet and have lost around 75 pounds of fat and gained 5-8 pounds of muscle.

No classifications for me, thanks.

I found it interesting, Epi-Gen. I slightly overlap my fingers, have long lower legs and long ring fingers. I can't remember my blood type. I've tested the fingers around wrist thing before, but am confused about that. My hands are pretty large for my height. I usually have hands larger than people several inches taller than me. I am 5'10''.

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I got to tell you it would be a pretty far stretch for me to use any of that information for unethical purposes. I am just college kid in my studio apartment waiting for school to start, oh and checking out huge amounts of CDs and books from the library a block from me.

One can not change being your somatype but people are often confused on it. Being an endomorph does not make you fat, not at all! People that think that are ill-informed and could benefit from some diet and exercise changes! You could still be an endomorph even though you are very fit without excess body fat. It only means you have more endodermic tissue is all. You could of very well been told the wrong information too. Jay Cutler is an endomorph but good luck telling Mr. Olympia 2nd place 6 times that he is fat.

I think it is good encouragement to know that anyone of any frame and body type can see results! Everyone is unique but we share some attributes or breeding would not go well.

cubby it sounds like you are a mesomorph. Your pictures certainly would make one thing so! If your hands where not as big they would probably just touch uh?

I am not saying that you would use for unethical purposes. However, if we look at history, the need to classify people into certain categories has resulted in everything from eugenics to genocide.

If you look at a book describing mesomorphs, endomorphs, and ectomorphs, they clearly show a muscular individuals, a fat individual, and a skinny individual. Mesomorph is shown as superior, whereas as ectomorphs are inferior to mesomorphs, and endomorphs are inferior to both. Personally, I find the use of these terms to classify people quite offensive and degrading.

Go here and look at how they show an endomorph and an ectomorph. http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=isch:1&q=endomorph+ectomorph+mesomorph&revid=658622759&sa=X&ei=VA9XTO2QIIXUtQOSoOjZAg&ved=0CCMQ1QIoAA&biw=1310&bih=933

The endomorphs are shown as fat and the ectomorphs are shown at best being slender, and in some causes extremely thin and malnourished looking. These classifications are an attempt to show some individuals as superior to others. Someone tried to do this with the Aryan race.

Hm well I would not try to say I am interested in "classifying" because it usually leaves too much open room. However knowing a lot and becoming educated on the differences I think is very intelligent.

I am not going to say that the Google image thing is flattering to anyone other than Mesomorphs. Although if you look at it in other ways people use to have a use for the different body types. Endomorphs were good at surviving famines, times of war, etc... Ectomorphs (probably ecto-mesomoprhs) are far superior at marathons today and it probably was useful for early humans that had to hunt wild game with spears etc. Being a mesomorph might have advantages in today's society but it was not always such. Plus these days for example fashion only likes ectomorphs typically. It is all up and down and really endomorphs are the only ones at the largest problem because the typical diet may make them gain weight easily. Currently in Hollywood the theme is endo-mesomorphs like Gerald Butler so you never know! Different values, different times, different cultures, all mean different things when it comes to body types.

But you are attempting to classify. You are describing people in these classifications.

endo-mesomorphs like Gerald Butler

I think you need to look at these classifications from someone else's point of view. Many people find these classifications insulting. Imagine someone told you that because you have one finger longer than another that you a prone to be less intelligent, or more likely to be violent, or that you have a propensity toward raping another human being. How would you feel about that?

When you classify people into these groups, they often tend to believe what you tell them and they accept the characteristics of that group. It ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy.

When you classify people into these groups, they often tend to believe what you tell them and they accept the characteristics of that group. It ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy.

Well, I don't think that will be a problem for you, Ducati. Your signature line says it all. And how are things in Carbondale? Used to be a Denverite, myself. Man, I miss those mountains! (Not to mention the great bodybuilding gyms out there.)

Baby Herc

Ignoring this kind of stuff, to me, is moving into the realm of excessive political correctness. It reminds me of a piece I heard on NPR, where the guests were bemoaning, and the host was agreeing, the devaluation of stupid people perpetrated by comedians who make light of stupidity.

Herc,

Carbondale sucks. I wish I was in Denver.

Cubby,

People have suffered severe depression and even committed suicide when they are classified as something they don't want to be. So try and be respectful of other people's emotions. You are coming across as the bully who called other kids named to make yourself feel better. Is it ok if I classify you as a bully?

You know what I am not going to worry about classifying people. I do not want to purposely offend anyone but I have limits on sheltering people from reality. It is like stereotypes, they come from somewhere even if they can be offensive and wrong for many people. I also do not see any connection to Sheldon, somatypes, and Hitler. I can not cater to insecurities anymore than I have been. If you think you fit a statistic then maybe you should do something about it. I think a lot of people here, including you (Ducati), have. If you felt you were part of the obese statistics Ducati then you are certain proof that you can make the effort to change it.

Perhaps it is the spin we look at it. If you are overweight then there is little sense in denying it but no one wants to be called "fatso" or anything like that. Instead of alienating the person you can treat them normally and encourage them when they want to change. Those are two very different things, and I am only getting the latter on this board - I see no one putting people down, only encouraging. Ducati be careful because there may not really be anything there but you keep looking until you find something to be concerned with.

Reality is there are differences between people. Knowing and understanding can help people reach goals and fight/avoid problems. We can not always just pretend everything is alright when we ourselves are at peace but those we speak to are not. That is the mentality most doctors and nutritionist take. They think everything else is wrong and only what they have to say works and it comes naturally for someone not in a position of being unhappy with their health/weight/muscle.

There may be some level of acceptance involved with all things. Anyways this is all a bit off topic.

I will share despite my frame size leaning towards being ecto-mesomorph or mesomorph more likely, I was very overweight for a long time. However while my approach is different now I use to gain strength fast when weight lifting. It came pretty easy and naturally. Just to say that is several people posting showing similar things, that they have high growth rate factors, were exposed to testosterone (fingers). That may not mean we are better at muscle development anymore than it might mean we are drawn towards it but all of us did show up on here.

Epi-gen, thanks for the very interesting and even interactive original post there, I enjoyed it.

I am an ectomorph, thats what I am and it would be rather silly to pretend I am not when the evidence is so visible. But that does not define my character. We are all perfect in our imperfections.

If you are overweight then there is little sense in denying it but no one wants to be called "fatso" or anything like that. Instead of alienating the person you can treat them normally and encourage them when they want to change.

That is exactly what you are doing. You are trying to apply a label based on a persons physical characteristics. You are calling them fatso, but doing it which quasi-scientific terms.

You are also alienating them by classifying them. If you simply help someone to eat healthier and increase physical fitness, you are much more likely to see them succeed. If you tell them they are in a certain group in which losing weight is more difficult, they might not even decide to try. I know because I accepted I was an endomorph for the first 30+ years of my life. If I had been given positive encouragement instead of a label, I might have had a completely different childhood and young adult life. The terms endomorph and ectomorph are degrading to those people who receive that label and have definite negative connotations. When you degrade someone, you reduce the chances of them succeeding in changing their lifestyle.

I am simply going to have to disagree, strongly.

If I am labeling, I am doing it to everyone. I have not given any particular personal preference to any of them. For all you know I find mesomorphs unattractive and useless because in times of war they are expensive to feed and not capable of running long enough distances to be worthwhile in the athletic endurance world. What difference does it really make? That is my opinion not yours.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said an endomorph does not have to be overweight. Many endomorphs feel there is no way for them to lose weight so they do not try. What is the difference between me telling them it is possible but not easy if they stopped trying or if they have yet to start. What is wrong with giving someone the truth, that typically endomorphs have a harder time losing weight, what is wrong with facts? Besides "not being easy" might just mean you do not drop 10lbs a week, you drop 3lbs or 1lb, it is still something. Had I met you as a child I would of told that you can get in shape if you want to with the right diet and exercise, and if you asked me why you were not already like so and so I would tell you because everyone is different.

You are making the terms endomorph and ectomorph degrading. YOU ARE by SAYING THEY ARE. Have you considered how many people reading this did not think the terms endomorph or ectomorph where offensive until you said they were? The world over different people value different body types. It is a matter of view, and I am trying to work with it objectively.

You view the labels endomorph and ectomorph as degrading to use so best to avoid altogether. I view that as neglecting truth, lying to oneself. At the base of the names is the type of tissue that is dominate. It is not some fantasy description. It is like saying I am offending people for saying you either have blond, brown, black, or red hair (and mixings) under the precondition that you only value blond so by ignoring truth I am saving people from themselves (? that is weird). If you consider that being overweight is by all known medicine putting people at higher risk for disease then recognizing they are overweight so they can make changes seems pretty smart to me. The same goes for people that are deathly underweight and need to gain enough weight to survive the next flu that goes around.

You can stop pulling the "I was an overweight child and young man" thing because I was too. I got told all sorts of total beeswax all the time by everyone I knew. I still found a way to change that for myself because I wanted too even after trying so much and failing, even after being told some people are just bigger or have a harder time, blah blah blah. It is anecdotal and there is power behind it but rival in that we are two examples of people that made changes even if it was not easy or required the right strategy, not our painful childhood misfortune.

How did this get from a thread that's simply a question poised to gather some data become connected to self-esteem, labeling, and all sorts of off-topic things? Boy, the board has been prone to some odd directions in threads lately

For the data:

Fingers nowhere near touching around wrist, BIG gap in there.

Longer ring fingers by a little bit

Longer upper leg by a few inches

Blood type, no recollection.

Without question, I'm a classic Endomorph with some very minor mesomorphic qualities. It runs in the family line, I have two sisters built much like I am, one brother who is simiar, with one who came out skinny with a completely different build than the rest of us.

And, I'm not at all bothered being classified by a body type. If I'm going to let it get me down that I do have a large frame but have a hard time losing fat, then I may as well pack it in right now I already know the reality, I've lived with it, that's just the way it is.

And, Ducati, there's no mention here of anything stating "your body type will set the tone forever and you'll fail if you try to fight it". We all know people who have fallen into these categories who have ended up being very much different from the usual way that most in the category are. Nothing is carved into stone, but the categories often hold a lot of truth to them, and it's nothing offensive, just the way that many in the groupings will find their bodies to be and how they respond to diet and training. Saying, for example, that I'm an endomorph doesn't necessarily mean I'm fat or have to be inherently fat by association; the one who says this is not the classification system of body types, it's actually YOU that is making the assumption, then turning a classification into something derogatory, and turning it back to infer that your own assumptions of perceived negativity are the way it really is.

I don't know why anything like this has a reason to get anyone worked up as if we're dividing the good from the bad or something like that. Not everything is necessarily furthering an invisible agenda or is a tool for division. Sometimes, things are actually as simple as they seem - it's almost always our own personal issues, fears and worries that tend to make us want to complicate matters excessively through interpretation on emotion over facts. Let's not turn this into a debate over something completely unrelated, as it's only going to take this one down the tubes.

This is not derogatory?

Ryan,

Why is it ok to classify someone based on body type, but not on their choice of profession?

I am sure a lot of mesomorphs are jealous of your sheer size VeganEssentials. You look like a great example of why endomorphs do not have to fear anything.

Well so far you do contribute to the ongoing longer ring fingers!

P.S. a lot of people want to be as thin as that ectomorph in the drawing that is quiet silly. I could wear small children pants with women's t-shirts and if I put on sun glasses look like a rock star if I was that size! I see nothing wrong with that.

Ducati,

Choosing an overly-simplified cartoon to show the common classifications is NOT what this discussion was about - doing a pick-and-choose to find what *you* personally WANT to be offended by has little to do with the classifications and their purpose.

Epi-Gen made a very good point with this one statement: "Have you considered how many people reading this did not think the terms endomorph or ectomorph where offensive until you said they were?"

Think about that for a moment. Think about it in context to a great deal of today's world and how we've come to seem to WANT to find a reason to be offended by everything that we don't want to agree with. Then, take a moment to think about how useless it is to try and turn something innocent into a battle that needs to be waged on a simple term that is non-offensive until someone decides they feel compelled to make it offensive. And then, maybe we'll finally get back to understanding that seeking reasons to be upset (and creating scenarios deemed "offensive" when one is not clearly visible to showcase) is counter-productive to positive change.

Not even going to get into your other question, my vow is to not let this one get way off topic. That one's going to take it in a direction that has nothing to do with the original sentiment, and comparing what you were born as to what you choose to do for income is pretty silly.

Setting aside the eugenics debate (???), I'm curious as to how scientifically this data is going to be collected, and what the OP actually intends to do with it. I'm just confused as to the point of all this, especially considering how much debate it has stirred up, lol.

I won't pretend it's offensive for me to be told I'm a skinny guy with a small frame (I know this already!), but I do have to say that the terms "gynic" and "andric" are really something most men and women wouldn't want to hear, respectively. "I'm a gynic man" and "I'm an andric woman" are not too flattering-sounding.

Not to mention the fact that the term "epigenetic qualities" somewhat pisses me off. EVERYTHING is epigenetic when you get down to it. So in keeping with that, here are my epigenetic qualities:

-cowlick toward the left side of my scalp

-deviated septum, toward the right side

-Left thumbnail slightly rotated inward

-left foot slightly longer than the right now

-I can roll my tongue

Please do not call it eugenics. Eugenics is an entirely different thing and implies things people might actually see as extremely offensive.

Collect data? Well you just have to read the posts; this is nothing official.

You have more genetic information than is expressed - a lot more in fact. That is why the term epigenetics is used and yes it is primarily the only thing we can and do see between living things without a microscope. I could made a post asking if everyone had genetic information from what part of Europe, Africa, Asia, whatever, that your mitochondrial DNA was traced back to but... it is not very interesting information to body building and I would of got less replies and probably more controversial replies.

Gynic men have bigger leg muscles typically. Less work for them in body building. Andric women tend to be amazing athletes. Plus once again the fashion world likes andric women, so it is all personal opinion.

Funny enough the ability to roll ones tongue is a genetic quality if I am not mistaken. If your ear lob (where the piercing typically is for pierced ears) is connected to your head or not is another. Dimples (face), windows peak, and a few other things are too. That is to say they are traits that differ within humans and not just from family lineages; they are dominate or not traits. (not that dominate ones in many cases mean anything other than the fact it usually is chosen when the DNA compiling from both parents happens)

I wish I could roll my tongue. Instead, I just end up making an ugly gargling sound whenever I try, which usually leads to people shaking their heads at me.