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What do Vegans feed their dogs?


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By the way, thanks for the referral to our site, VeganMadre! Same goes for VeganCats.com as well - both run out of our warehouse, with plenty of options for cats and dogs to have a healthy vegan diet that's nutritionally complete.

 

So basically your entire post was a commercial and plug so you can sell your product....nice

 

 

Actually, he was thanking ME for plugging his product so bug off. I've used the vegecat mix and dry food in the past when caring for a cat that "claimed us" during our stay in the woods. I've been happy with my purchases from veganessentials and figured I would offer conscientious vegans a resource for cruelty free companion animal products. He makes sound arguments so it's really not fair of you to discount his post based on my plug.

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I'm done with this topic and posting my opinion anyway I keep getting sucked into arguments with people claiming to be more vegan or more compassionate than me or have more animals interests in mind than I do... It's not a contest ...... you can get angry at me all you want...I would like to see some research backing his claims....even vegan cats.com and the vegetarian society says feeding cats no meat can be hazardous to their health.

Edited by Emmybear
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My uncle is a doctor of veterinary medicine....He knows how cats work inside and out and obviously was taught to spot certain deficiencies in nutrients as way to diagnose illness.

 

What are your credentials? What do veterinarians have to gain by telling you to feed your cat meat? Nothing.... they are only interested in the well being of the animal. Veterinarians have agreed with the fact that dogs are omnivorous and can be healthy on a vegan diet....why would they continue to to say that cats are carnivores if there was not a good reason for it.

 

My credentials are that I sell vegan animal foods that are by brands who have been on the market for years and proven to be safe, and I speak with many, many people who have raised vegan cats and dogs successfully. I've done a fair share of research on vegan diets for cats as well, because for years even I thought it was a bad idea, until I started speaking with people who had done it successfully and looking into the diet in-depth. That's not much for "credentials", but I'm exposed to first-hand evidence that it CAN be done safely to convert an animal's diet, which is more than most veterinarians have on their side since they immediately dismiss the possibility. What do vets have to gain by recommending meat? Nothing, but they also don't have to do any additional independent research to find out about vegan diets since most vets will probably never have anyone come in trying to say how they're trying to make their cat or dog go vegan. Most doctors, like vets, do not educate themselves on numerous topics beyond their necessities because if it isn't essential, they don't see it as beneficial to their career. Most human physicians are not specialists in nutrition unless they've gone the extra mile to study nutrition in-depth independently for their own sake. It's the same with vets - if vegan diets for animals aren't part of their veterinary curriculum during schooling and they don't bother to take time to learn all about it on their own, how do they know any more than you or I do? It's simply a lack of care to learn, and as is common in people, we ridicule that which we don't care to understand.

 

 

- The store-bought average-brand cat food is not MOSTLY MEAT as most people would believe. Animal food companies do not have to list ingredients, so you don't get to see what's really in those foods, but believe me, there are more binders, fillers and all-out junk in most store-bought brands than actual meat that it's almost incredible. Most people don't know that major cat and dog food companies had to start adding Taurine and Arachadonic Acid to regular cat and dog food because as most formulas go, they are naturally lacking in these nutrients and must STILL be added synthetically to meat-based animal foods. There was a time a few decades ago when massive amounts of cats across the USA were dying of complications due to the lack of proper nutrients, at which time it was discovered that the majority of meat-based foods were inadequate and that's when the industry started to supplement such foods heavily. So, before people say that what they give their cats is natural, consider how many unnatural things are added to the foods as fillers/preservatives/etc., and that the two major necessities for cats to be healthy STILL need to be added to the foods to be nutritionally sound. As long as the food meets AAFCO (American Association of Feed Companies) certification for being balanced, it can contain just about anything so long as it has the proper ratio of nutrients, with little concern about unnatural additivies in the formulation.

 

 

You are right about this....the common dry kibble cat food is not optimal wet food should be supplemented....

 

Common brand wet food is not pure meat or necessarily that much "healthier" than dry kibble. Anyone remember the melamine scare from 2 years ago with contaminated wheat gluten that was killing cats? Guess what - that WAS wet food, which is still full of binders and junk. Just because it looks more like meat doesn't mean that it's got that much more meat to it....

 

- People do like to say that "no animals were killed for my cat's/dog's food", however, the same could be said about consuming by-products such as gelatin and dozens of other inocuous ingredients that we as vegans tend to avoid in food, supplements, body care items, personal care products, cleaning products, etc. You can't say that it goes one way for what we as humans use and what we feed our companion animals. It's all the same thing - when you buy something that contains animal by-products, the meat industry STILL profits from you, regardless of what you'd like to believe. This isn't a condemnation, but simply a fact that does ring true regardless of what people like to believe or not.

 

We do not use animal byproducts for ourselves because it is not necessary and the belief that killing animals unnecessarily is why most people become vegan

 

Carnivores need the high protein and easy digestibility of meat in their diet therefore something must die so they can survive....using what is leftover so another animal can survive does not seem wrong to me at all.

 

Feeding cats meat by-products is not "necessary" any more than it is for us to eat meat, but it just happens to be what most people do by default either through convenience, lack of knowledge, believe in outdated notions, or a personal decision that they just don't want to bother. Either way, it's the choice of the person caring for the cat - I'm not judging anyone, but simply making a point that it's ridiculous to keep attacking vegan diets for cats based on misconceptions that have been perpetrated for years. I'm only here to give a different side to the story to counter the silly old beliefs - whether you care to consider a different option is up to you, but it'd be a shame if you didn't at least consider for a moment that maybe what you've been told in the past isn't 100% accurate.

 

It does still come down to the fact that a by-product is a by-product and supports the meat industry with its purchase, regardless of whether it is for a human or your companion animal. And, it is still very true that cats can be vegan and exist on foods that don't contrubute to the cycle of cruelty. Neither of these things is changed by what you posted above.

 

Also, do you really think that cat food has to be high in protein? Consider the actual protein content of a slice of meat from a butcher shop, then know that most canned cat foods only need a minimum of around 8% protein to be considered safe for consumption. We're looking at HUGE difference between the protein content that is in actual meat and what is fed to companion animals, showing you how little actual meat (not counting the random parts ground up like eyes, hooves, entrails, etc.) goes into cat and dog food. When you consider that natural meat will be 30% or more protein content and then you see that cat food only needs to be a fraction of that, it should really make you question the whole notion of "Carnivores need the high protein and easy digestibility of meat in their diet therefore something must die so they can survive" since if that were true, why is it that we can feed cats a low-protein food like 9 Lives, Friskies etc. and they still can live without health issues? I'm afraid that such proof goes directly against your statement I just quoted in the previous sentence.

 

- MOST (not all) veterinarians are unfortuantely suckered into the "vegan is bad" thing for cats and dogs, even if they should know better. Feeding animals vegan food is unfortunately still such a fringe notion as of this time that most vets don't bother to educate themselves on it and instantly assume that it's bad. It's much like how you could poll a dozen human physicians on diets, and most would be likely to tell you that a vegan diet is less healthy than an omnivorous one, simply because of ignorance and lack of knowledge. I've been fortunate enough to speak with a vet who actually agreed that a vegan diet can be very healthy for cats and dogs, but I've also heard of dozens more from our shoppers who had their vets tell them that it was a horrible diet and that their animals would die painfully. Guess who had the last laugh when their cats were still completely healthy years later after continuing to be vegan? Veterinarians are no more dietary specialists than human physicians, so taking their word as law is like believing your doctor on EVERY bit of advice they have, even if they think that it's crazy for you to be vegan yourself.

 

- Buying meat-based cat food does not "stop waste" for vegans any more than it does for us to buy a slab of ground beef that's nearing its expiration date because nobody else wants it and it'll go to waste soon. The damage is already done, and spending money consciously to purchase something that is rooted in cruelty doesn't do any less to reduce it in the future or prevent any actual waste. Just because a few thousand vegans would no longer buy meat-based cat food won't cause an overflow of the product that will go to waste - it will still be purchased by the same people who have always been buying it. What WOULD make an impact on the meat industry is for Americans (and everyone else) to be less reliant on by-products, which in turn would raise the cost of meat as the by-products are also quite profitable, and without the same demand it would change the way human-grade meat cuts are priced. It's like leather - we can argue that it's simply a by-product, but guess what? If most people demanded synthetics or natural fiber instead of leather, the demand for leather would lessen, the cost of leather would inflate, and the price of cruelty-free leather alternatives would in time come down more. It goes as well for the industry of meat by-products - everything is connected, and a change in one area affects that in another.

 

Cat food is parts of the animal not fit for human consumption....it will never ever be sold as human food...as long as there are omnivorous people there will be parts of the animals left over. Instead of having feral and house cats outside hunting wild birds and mice causing more animals to die.....wouldn't it be better to use what is left over to sustain a life that needs it.

 

Much of what is in meat-based cat food is not fit for consumption of ANY being. Diseased parts, excrement, etc. I don't quite know why you intend on defending it as some sort of healthy option or to make it seem any more natural than a vegan cat food when it's full of bad crap and is repulsive to think about what's really in it.

 

In my opinion, it's healthier and more natural for a cat to kill in the wild, and while it may bring the death of another animal, that's far, far different in it's natural state than it is when we raise cattle for slaughter just to suit our needs, then justify using some of the parts on an "ethical" basis. I think that the justification is merely a way for many people to sleep better at night than anything else, since it's still purchasing ingredients from an animal that was exploited and killed as a commodity for our needs. It's not like we're using parts from cows that lived free and died a natural death, but you're trying to make it sound like that with an overly-simple and not-completely-accurate justification.

 

Vegans who disagree with this should not keep carnivores animals as pets and the blood is no longer on their hands.

 

Or, they could follow the example of thousands of other people and at least TRY a vegan diet for their cats. If it were half as dangerous as you and the people you have spoken with seem to believe, how have there been so many success stories, and how are vegan animal food companies not run out of business if all they're doing is killing the animals their products are being fed to? Please ponder that one for a moment.

 

By the way, thanks for the referral to our site, VeganMadre! Same goes for VeganCats.com as well - both run out of our warehouse, with plenty of options for cats and dogs to have a healthy vegan diet that's nutritionally complete.

 

So basically your entire post was a commercial and plug so you can sell your product....nice

 

I'm very, very insulted that you even said that. Seriously, I'd really like it if someone here would show that I'm a shameless promoter of my businesses in all of my posts. I'm proud to be doing what I do and was simply thanking Veganmadre for pointing people to our shop if they care to find vegan cat and dog food since some people here still don't even know that it exists. If you want to take it a different way, that's your business, but even suggesting that I posted simply to plug my business is a pretty childish attack against me since I don't agree with you and have shown that your views are not 100% accurate. Oh well, believe what you want...

 

 

Here is a link to some information written by veterinary doctors and research scientists if you care... form your own conclusion....

 

http://cats.about.com/b/2006/03/22/vegan-cats-dialogue.htm

 

...And I could take a random pro-vegan cat link and post it here as well to give another view, but it's not going to change your mind, so do whatever you like.

 

I'm not condemning those who don't choose to give their cats a vegan diet, but I see it that being ignorant of the truth that it can be done safely is a sad thing. It's fine if you don't want to do it, but to spread misinformation that it's always unsafe/unnatural/etc. is so blatantly incorrect that I can't just watch it be said without offering a counterpoint. If you don't want to feed a cat or dog vegan food, then that's your business, but it'd be a shame if you continued to believe the reasons for what you've posted here without acknowledging that cats and dogs CAN go vegan safely and be healthy. Though, like I've said in past discussions about this, there will ALWAYS be exceptions for cats that don't seem to thrive on a vegan diet, and if they don't then it's cruel to keep them as such. The animal's well-being comes first.

 

One more thing...would you feed a tiger your vegan kibble and expect it to survive???

 

If someone did what James Peden (founder of HOANA VegePet foods) has done and spent over 20 years working to develop a vegan tiger kibble that was nutritionally complete and could provide a safe and healthy existence, OF COURSE I'd consider feeding the tiger vegan kibble. Why wouldn't I if it were shown to be safe and effective? Sadly, with this closing question you've shown that none of what I've said has hit home to make you realize that cats can go vegan safely, so there's no point in debating this with you since you don't seem willing to consider anything other than what you already perceive to be true.

Edited by VeganEssentials
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I'm done with this topic and posting my opinion anyway I keep getting sucked into arguments with people claiming to be more vegan or more compassionate than me or have more animals interests in mind than I do... It's not a contest ...... you can get angry at me all you want...I would like to see some research backing his claims....even vegan cats.com and the vegetarian society says feeding cats no meat can be hazardous to their health.

 

You may want to re-read what it says at VeganCats.com - it does say that SOME cats may have a difficult time on a vegan diet and adding some meat may be best for optimal health if a cat cannot thrive being 100% vegan. Nowhere does it say that not feeding meat is hazardous to a cat's health. Please, post accurately if you're going to quote from something that I wrote jointly with the former owner of the site - write what is true and not a falsity that you posted to try and back your claim of "cats can't be vegan". Also, the Vegan Society (not the Vegetarian Society), has put their seal of approval on brands such as Ami Cat food, so just because one organization you chose to single out may say it can't be done, others will say the contrary.

 

Nowhere did I write that you were any less vegan or any less compassionate - that was never even in doubt or brought up for discussion. I will question your knowledge of vegan diets for cats, but I haven't made it a point of personal attacks so I'm at a complete loss to see where this is coming from. I'm certainly not angry at you in any way - though I will admit, I'm irritated seeing your posts that are not accurate about cats' dietary needs and how it's not safe for them to go vegan, which is why I posted here at all. It's nothing personal, but you do have to expect that if you're going to post something that's not true and has been proven incorrect, someone MAY just call you out on it

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Thanks for posting all that information veganessentials! I hadn't known that about cats, but it is very good to know for future reference. I don't have any companion animals, but I have a vegetarian friend with a cat and I know he will be very interested to know that it can be made vegan. So I have forwarded your post to him. Very interesting and informative. Thank you.

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My pleasure to offer some info, Alison!

 

The topic tends to get a bit heated, but as I've seen firsthand over the past years, plenty of people have changed their cats to a vegan diet and have done so very successfully. I don't know why it still gets such negative publicity since it's not anywhere near as risky or horrible as some people say, but to those people, I simply say "Don't do it." When done with proper research and a nutritionally-complete vegan cat food, it can be an easy change (so long as the cats aren't super-finicky, since there aren't that many options to choose from if they don't like the usual meal!) It just takes proper care, reserach and diet, and I always recommend working with your veterinarian to make sure that things are in order and that the cat is checked periodically to ensure that they are healthy on the diet, and for most people, that works out well enough!

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even vegan cats.com and the vegetarian society says feeding cats no meat can be hazardous to their health.

 

 

Vegan Cats.com.

Yes. After much soul-searching, we have decided to change our official recommedations for certain cats.

 

Urinary tract problems are extremely common in cats and, because of the relative acidity of meat to vegetable protein, many vegan cats suffer from them.

 

Although we have been giving advice for some time on how these problems can be minimized while still feeding a completely vegan diet, we have found that the vast majority of our customers have not been following this advice.

 

Unless you are very committed to following the advice outlined below, we therefore recommend that you mitigate the risk of urinary tract problems by feeding males cats only a 25-75% vegan diet and females a 50-100% vegan diet.

 

Our mission is to reduce suffering as much as possible through reducing dependancy on meat products for your companion animals, but at the same time, we also have great concern for the overall health and well-being of cats who are prone to urinary tract problems. We do not believe in making companion animals suffer health complications simply because we'd like to feed them an exclusively vegan diet; rather, we believe that people should do the best they can to find a balance that keeps their companions healthy while reducing dependancy on meat products to the greatest extent.

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You deleted the word can from my post to prove yourself right.....I wrote " feeding

cats no meat can be hazardous to thier health...which if you co wrote the above statement from vegan cats.com then you know that to be true....please quote me correctly if you are going to do so...

 

If not all cats do well on the diet then the statement CATS DO NOT NEED MEAT!!! seems false to me.....you should have written some cats no not need meat.Cats cannot digest starches and vegetable protein the way humans and dogs can. 9 grams of vegetable protein is very different from 9 grams of meat protein to a cat.

 

 

 

I apologize to you for calling your post a commercial...that was wrong but it bugged me that nothing in your original post said anything about the possibility of sudden and dramatic urinary blockages.....although if you co wrote that statement you obviously knew about it....nor does it say anything about it on your vegan essentials website......that seems like pertinent information...

 

 

My comment about the tiger was to make people think a little bit about the fact that even

though we bring kitties into our home they have not yet adapted out of their natural behavior and are still very similar to their large cousins.... I think most people vegans or otherwise would think it is silly to offer a tiger vegan food....but because we have domesticated the cat we think that is different somehow

 

And one of My cats will eat macaroni and cheese and pizza if given the choice....does not mean he can thrive on it.

 

I would like to see some long term studies and the research to back your claims....The only thing you have proven is that Some cats are surviving on a vegan diet without complications that differ any from a diet based on commercial cat food....not that cats do not need meat.....there are feral cats in the wild that are nutrient deficient too and they "survive"....If there was a vegan cat food on the market that was completely safe I would buy it.

also when I said the thing about not being compassionate and being angry at me I was talking to veganmadre...telling me to "bug off" does not sound like she is pleased with me.....but she said she does not believe in the death of countless other animals for another to survive.....well that is very noble and respectable for a human being with morals......however animals have no morals they do what is necessary to survive...

And if all humans were vegans some animals would still kill others because they have to

 

The only thing I have gotten out of this discussion is that I realized even commercial cat food is not very good for cats and I should look into other ways to feed my cats in the future that will keep them healthier than commercial kibble and wet food. I cannot change one of my current cats diet because she throws up every time I try a new food on her and she wont eat anything but Whiskas. I may try a different direction with the other.

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While it can appear a bit like a recommendation to feed cats meat, I think that you may be misconstruing the statements a bit -

 

even vegan cats.com and the vegetarian society says feeding cats no meat can be hazardous to their health.

 

 

Vegan Cats.com.

Yes. After much soul-searching, we have decided to change our official recommedations for certain cats.

 

The word "certain" indicates that it is not a recommendation for all cats, but if a cat does not adapt well to a 100% vegan diet, we are advocating a partially vegan diet instead. It is not a blanket statement to say that every cat should eat meat - perhaps we'll clear that up a bit as it was a rather hastily-written statement between us and the former owners of the site.

 

Urinary tract problems are extremely common in cats and, because of the relative acidity of meat to vegetable protein, many vegan cats suffer from them.

 

Just as well, many non-vegan cats suffer from urinary tract infections also. The statements we make are geared toward people whose cats are unfortunately prone to such problems - for cats who have recurring UTIs on a vegan diet, then a return to at least partially meat-based foods may be necessary if the cat fares better on it. Again, this is not a cut-and-dried statement to say that most or all cats will have problems on a vegan diet, but unfortunately, it does happen for some. Often, problems happen because, as noted in the next statement you quote, people will simply feed their cats dry vegan kibble exclusively, and dry kibble only is not a good way for a cat to eat whether it is vegan or not. As cats are inefficient drinkers, they should eat primarily wet food to maximize their ability to utilize water to the best potential. Many times, as the old owner of VeganCats.com found, was that cats did not adapt well because people were not following common feeding guidelines or were changing recipes in the VegeCat mixes to suit THEIR convenience rather than the needs of the cats. That's where a lot of the problem lies, much in how people didn't bother to do adequate research and feed their cats appropriately and rather decided to "wing it" instead.

 

Although we have been giving advice for some time on how these problems can be minimized while still feeding a completely vegan diet, we have found that the vast majority of our customers have not been following this advice.

...as discussed above, not following the recommendations CAN increase the risk of urinary tract infections. That has been the most common problem with vegan cats, not the issues you'd previously mentioned earlier on in the thread.

 

Unless you are very committed to following the advice outlined below, we therefore recommend that you mitigate the risk of urinary tract problems by feeding males cats only a 25-75% vegan diet and females a 50-100% vegan diet.

 

Like I said, it's about commiting to following the diet as it is intended, which is very safe for almost all cats. The key phrase here is "Unless you are very committed to following the advice outlined below" - saying that, if you're going to feed a cat according to the recommended plans strictly, then it's best to only go partially vegan as the diet should be done safely and according to plan if it is to be done 100% to ensure best results. Much like you can't expect to go vegan and live healthy by living of nothing but salad greens alone for every meal of every day, if a cat is to go vegan, it should be done appropriately.

 

Our mission is to reduce suffering as much as possible through reducing dependancy on meat products for your companion animals, but at the same time, we also have great concern for the overall health and well-being of cats who are prone to urinary tract problems. We do not believe in making companion animals suffer health complications simply because we'd like to feed them an exclusively vegan diet; rather, we believe that people should do the best they can to find a balance that keeps their companions healthy while reducing dependancy on meat products to the greatest extent.

 

Again, if you read this closely, it does not at all say "cats need meat and will develop UTIs if you feed them an all-vegan diet". It simply says, if a cat is prone to such problems (again, as many non-vegan cats are as well), and they are an issue on a vegan diet, then perhaps the diet should be changed for the well-being of the cat. These statements were made after some people had attempted to continue the same diet for cats that did develop recurring UTIs, which is NOT in the cat's best interest. Cats are like people - they're all different, and some cats will live healthier lives being all-vegan, while others may not fare quite as well. For those who do not do as well, a change is in order, and we'd rather see someone feed a cat a partially meat-based diet than put a cat's life in jeopardy simply because they want to keep feeding it a vegan diet that may not be working for it. That's the entire message - it has nothing at all to say regarding cats needing meat or a vegan diet being unsafe. It's like saying that if a person has kidney issues, a low-protein diet would be best for them, and if eating high-protein were to cause recurring problems, it'd be time to dump the diet for a better alternative to suit the ailment and prevent it from coming back.

 

That's the only point being made in these statements - definitely do not take them any other way, as they are not meant to say anything negative regarding a vegan diet for animals nor is it even remotely close to saying that a meat-free diet is more dangerous. It's just a caveat for those who have animals who have touchy health issues, saying that the cat's health comes first, and if a diet has to be tweaked for optimal health, that's what we recommend.

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You deleted the word can from my post to prove yourself right.....I wrote " feeding

cats no meat can be hazardous to thier health...which if you co wrote the above statement from vegan cats.com then you know that to be true....please quote me correctly if you are going to do so...

 

Actually, the word "can" is still in there in my reply, but, you were misconstruing the message that was being conveyed. It wasn't about proving myself right, it was about showing that your quote of taking something from VeganCats.com was being mis-used to suit your argument.

 

If not all cats do well on the diet then the statement CATS DO NOT NEED MEAT!!! seems false to me.....you should have written some cats no not need meat.Cats cannot digest starches and vegetable protein the way humans and dogs can. 9 grams of vegetable protein is very different from 9 grams of meat protein to a cat.

 

Nothing false about it. Simply because some cats who may be prone to UTIs may have a bit more frequency on certain types of vegan diets does not create a false situation. Like I said in my previous post - if you eat an inadequate diet, you may suffer from complications even if the overall diet is healthy when done properly. Same goes for cats, and same goes for if a human has special dietary considerations due to a medical condition, their diet must be suited to what is best for their needs, not something that can aggravate the condition. Those situations make it so that, like with human diets, no plan is all-or-nothing good or bad for people, and so it goes with cats. In my few years doing what I do and speaking with the formner owner of VeganCats.com and author of Obligate Carnivore, UTIs are the only issue that we've come across that some cats have had a bit more frequency with on a change to a vegan diet (not always an APPROPRIATE change, mind you, hence the statements quoted earlier about how many people do not follow the diet properly for their cats). Your mention of taurine absorption, protein deficiencies, etc. have not been ANYTHING I have had feedback on, and I speak regularly with many people who take their cats in for regular checkups since going vegan and get a clean bill of health every time. I think that you're making far more out of those concerns than is actually to worry about - much like how non-vegans will say "Where do you get your protein?" to those of us who don't eat animal products, many people have that kind of false assumption for cats as well. Consider this point - by-products in commercial cat foods may contain, say, 9g of protein, but when it is from low-grade sources like ligaments and other nasty parts, it is nowhere near as well absorbed as high-quality meat protein. Remember, they're not giving cats the fine cuts, but the gross leftover crud that can't be used for other applications. So, much of that is likely quite on-par with the digestibility of vegetable proteins. You can't compare it as if a cat is eating filet mignon in commercial foods because that's just not the way it goes, and what they ARE getting is far inferior quality scraps and weird by-products that have a lower bioavailability and will not be the same.

 

Basically, according to your argument above, we should warn everyone that a vegan diet for humans as well can be unsafe due to worry about things like B-12 deficiencies, and therefore, we should all have to make this a forward issue to everyone we discuss it with. If you feel that having ANY chance of problem requires mentioning, you should mention this to every person you speak with regarding going vegan because nothing is 100% ideal for everyone and without any minute chance of risk...see what I'm getting at here?

 

I apologize to you for calling your post a commercial...that was wrong but it bugged me that nothing in your original post said anything about the possibility of sudden and dramatic urinary blockages.....although if you co wrote that statement you obviously knew about it....nor does it say anything about it on your vegan essentials website......that seems like pertinent information...

 

It wasn't mentioned as it's not a grave concern for most cats, and I was rather busy addressing your mention of issues that are absolute rarities of concern on a vegan diet, such as taurine deficiencies and protein problems. When you tell people about how it can be easy to go vegan, do you immediately tell them "Watch out for B-12 deficiencies!!!" and discuss every potential problem that could happen? No. There are concerns with EVERY diet, but it does not do good to promote it to cause excessive worry when it is something that will most likely only impact a tiny fraction of those who try it. Our goal is not to scaremonger people into worrying about the change of diet, but rather to promote it safely and effectively and let them know that it should be done properly to provide maximum benefits and safety. VeganCats.com has been the first site devoted to a vegan diet for cats and dogs and has had much more information posted on it due to that. It is a specialized site and requires far more details due to the large volume of questions that come in to us. On VeganEssentials.com, there is info at the bottom of the product description for Evolution Diet brand kibble, the most commonly over-used food, and of course, giving exclusively dry food is not ideal. There is also information on the packaging as noted by the manufacturer in regard to feeding instructions and how it is best to add some water to the kibble, so there is information on both sites as well as on the packaging of the products as well. One justhas more info because we have to answer a lot more questions and it benefits our visitors to have all the info handy so they don't have to continuously write with common questions.

 

My comment about the tiger was to make people think a little bit about the fact that even

though we bring kitties into our home they have not yet adapted out of their natural behavior and are still very similar to their large cousins.... I think most people vegans or otherwise would think it is silly to offer a tiger vegan food....but because we have domesticated the cat we think that is different somehow

 

But, we come back to the exact same thing I said earlier all over again. IF someone spent 2 decades researching vegan tiger diets hands-on in university-performed studies as James Peden has and created a safe and healthy food that has been working for tigers for the past few decades, why would that be any more silly? You're making a comparison that's not really relevant - you're taking one animal who has had years of study into making a safe vegan diet and comparing it to another who hasn't been studied at all for such a thing, then saying that because the 2nd one hasn't been studied, it's silly to think that it could work, and since the animals are similar, that means that the diet for studied animal #1 is going to be bad. It really doesn't prove anything against cats being able to be vegan safely and in good health, but is a bit of a sidetrack to something that distracts from the other points being discussed about how many cats have gone vegan and done very well on it.

 

And one of My cats will eat macaroni and cheese and pizza if given the choice....does not mean he can thrive on it.

 

Completely illogical and irrelevant when compared to a diet that's been researched and formulated to the specific needs of a cat to survive and be healthy. Some dogs will eat their own poo, but does that mean that food made for dogs is on par with it? Please, let us stay on topic here without going off course to things that don't have any bearing on the topic at hand.

 

I would like to see some long term studies and the research to back your claims....The only thing you have proven is that Some cats are surviving on a vegan diet without complications that differ any from a diet based on commercial cat food....not that cats do not need meat.....there are feral cats in the wild that are nutrient deficient too and they "survive"....If there was a vegan cat food on the market that was completely safe I would buy it.

 

If you want more information, then I recommend contacting James and Kathy Peden at Hoana with questions, Eric Weisman at Evolution (who will fax people signed statements from customers who have had decade-plus long vegan cats by request), reading the book Obligate Carnivore by Jed Gillen, or visiting some of the other pro-vegan cat sites out there. There are details on studies, there are people who have worked in development for many years, but it's up to you to seek out the info you're looking for. There isn't a giant compiled guidebook that has all the details in one place (I wish there was, but unfortunately, it does not yet exist), so all that needs to be done is to take the time to seek out the info from the appropriate resources since it is out there, but scattered.

 

also when I said the thing about not being compassionate and being angry at me I was talking to veganmadre...telling me to "bug off" does not sound like she is pleased with me.....but she said she does not believe in the death of countless other animals for another to survive.....well that is very noble and respectable for a human being with morals......however animals have no morals they do what is necessary to survive...

And if all humans were vegans some animals would still kill others because they have to

 

Yes, some animals would still kill others because that's the way nature goes. It still doesn't mean anything in regard to vegan diets for cats being harmful, but you do keep trying to say such a thing indirectly. Such far-fetched attempts at correllations don't disprove the fact that most cats can easily go vegan, so I don't really see how they have any bearing for mention. It's like we're trying to discuss the existence of God here with some of the statements you make - you want irrefutable evidence that all cats can go 100% vegan and have no complications in order to believe it possible (which you cannot get, since everything contains some inherent risk), and yet you try to disprove those you don't agree with by making claims of connections that don't really do anything to show that the diet is any less safe than I've been stating. It's a lot of back-and-forth, but so far, I haven't heard anything in your statements that has done anything to prove against what I have said. Perhaps it is best to just end this discussion here, since I witness firsthand how many cats go vegan successfully, and you choose to believe otherwise based on anecdotal evidence and outdated ideals.

 

The only thing I have gotten out of this discussion is that I realized even commercial cat food is not very good for cats and I should look into other ways to feed my cats in the future that will keep them healthier than commercial kibble and wet food. I cannot change one of my current cats diet because she throws up every time I try a new food on her and she wont eat anything but Whiskas. I may try a different direction with the other.

 

At the very least, my work is done here if it did show just how rotten cheap commercial foods are. If you stay with meat-based foods, at least go with brands like PetGuard or others that use organics and don't go with additives like cheap wheat gluten or use the worst-of-the-worst by-products. At the very least, I want to raise awareness so that people stop thinking that the ingredients in their normal cheap brands of cat and dog food are anywhere near as natural or good for their animals as they'd like to believe (or, at least, as good as the commercials would make them out to be.)

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