Increasing lean muscle with BW only

[cubby2112]

Thanks for pointing me to these studies, veganmaster. I downloaded the one you recommended and am printing it right now. I have always wondered how a high starch diet would affect muscle building since humans are obviously more adapted to starch consumption than any other primate and since starch is what allowed us to become what we are today.

 

It is getting time for some self-experimentation.

[veganmaster]

veganmaster would a high carbo, moderate protein and minimum fat result in maintenance of muscle and loss of fat if it was a lets say a 1,500 calorie with about less than 10g of fat as you mentioned?

 

Well it depends on your energy expenditure, your total kcal deficit, but that is an interesting question. The study "Metabolic effects of a mixed and a high-carbohydrate low-fat diet in man" has some interesting 1 day calorimetry data:

 

Diet:17% PRO 4% FAT 78% CHO

kcal in: 2076

kcal out: 2534

Net kcal deficit: -458

 

Here the subjects performed a couple hours of pedaling (430 kcal burned). They added 17 grams of net PRO (=85g LBM), while losing 80.5 grams of FAT. So clearly when you have a workout day you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time with a 400 kcal deficit. But where is the maintenance point? Your 1500 kcal diet is probably a net deficit of ~1000 kcal - likely enough to still maintain muscle while losing FAT, when protein synthesis is elevated from recent exercise (up to 36 hours). Another old Nitrogen balance study (can't find it right now) used a 95% CHO 5% PRO 0% FAT diet, and found nitrogen balance was met on a 3000 kcal diet (only 38 grams of protein!). Another no-FAT maintenance kcal diet was used in the study:

"Dietary fat content alters insulin-mediated glucose metabolism in healthy men"

On a zero fat, 15% PRO 85% CHO diet that met energy needs - subjects lost 1.2 grams of FAT per hour, WITHOUT exercise ("physical activity was limited to the usual daily activities.") Unfortunately they didn't measure PRO, as the study's aim was how insulin resistance increases with FAT intake.

 

So the answer is hard to pin down, but I think as long as you throw in some exercise to increase PS, the evidence shows just how well the body protects protein stores when exercise levels and %CHO intake are both high.

 

So the answer is probably yes, a 1500kcal HCLFD diet plus a bit of exercise would probably melt off over 100 g/d FAT while maintaining LBM. In fact this is why the McDougall Program For Maximum Weight loss is so successful - it calls for low-kcal green and yellow vegetables, no fat, and some starch/rice/beans etc. for hunger satisfaction. In fact I am reminded of an article he wrote showing data from his live-in program, showing that the obese lost a lot of fat, while the overly thin gained weight. Really, it's all about following the rules of nature - our bodies are designed for high activity muscle buildling and plant-based energy. Combine the two and you are working on the right side of millions of years of evolution!

 

Of course, another avenue to experiment with for fast fat loss and muscle maintenance is a protein-only fast + exercise, but that is definitely less satisfying than eating regular, small amounts of real food.

[the monkey]

again veganmaster thank you so much for that, and i gotta say those studies and results they showed are incrdible and very convincing, as well as totally doable and enjoyable rather than being a hassle

[veganmaster]

Thanks for pointing me to these studies, veganmaster. I downloaded the one you recommended and am printing it right now. I have always wondered how a high starch diet would affect muscle building since humans are obviously more adapted to starch consumption than any other primate and since starch is what allowed us to become what we are today.

 

It is getting time for some self-experimentation.

 

You're totally welcome. Yes, the recent DNA evidence is interesting, showing how we differ from our cousin primates:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/oct/fav5.htm

 

You're right, we are the starch-eaters!

[veganmaster]

again veganmaster thank you so much for that, and i gotta say those studies and results they showed are incrdible and very convincing, as well as totally doable and enjoyable rather than being a hassle

 

I enjoy sharing the info - I should start a blog/write a book, but I never do. When I got interested in building strength and muscle, I hit the studies hard - the scientific evidence is robust, yet pretty much completely unknown/misunderstood - with many vegans and meat-eaters obsessing on eating lots of protein, without understand basic metabolism. Bodybuilding message boards will often have threads discussing "the best routine" for muscle gain, yet without really mentioning the primacy of nutrition in determining the outcome! Often nuanced truth is unpopular, because it doesn't fit as well as half-truth does into bite-size memes. And of most people's opinions are simply memes that they regurgitate without having bought logic & evidence to the table. But with unpopular truth comes Cassandra's burden. So it's refreshing that you've taken an interest, I think you are the first, lol.

[the monkey]

Lol it really is a shame that most people don't get interested in nutrition, metabolism and the such as it is what occurs in their organism and what could solve the majority if not all the problems that are present today concerning obesity and realted illnesses. One last question lol sorry but i love to learn as much as i can about things that affect me and my performance. I have noticed than lower amount of kcals than maintenance level consumed in a day lead to both fat and lbm loss, if the intake is increased to cover the maintenance level accompanied with exercise and the dietary guidelines would this facilitate the metabolization of fat as the body would believe it is in starvation mode?

[veganmaster]

Lol it really is a shame that most people don't get interested in nutrition, metabolism and the such as it is what occurs in their organism and what could solve the majority if not all the problems that are present today concerning obesity and realted illnesses.

 

Yes the book I want to write is kind of a contrarian, big-picture owner's manual to the human body. Nothing puts you in the driver's seat of personal health like understanding basic biology, nutrition and metabolism. The truth is 99%+ of sick people are totally curable when fueled and exercised approriately. It is a sad fact that "modern" culture often demonizes those who come closest to the truth ("the lady doth protest too much"!).

One last question lol sorry but i love to learn as much as i can about things that affect me and my performance. I have noticed than lower amount of kcals than maintenance level consumed in a day lead to both fat and lbm loss, if the intake is increased to cover the maintenance level accompanied with exercise and the dietary guidelines would this facilitate the metabolization of fat as the body would believe it is in starvation mode?

 

Ask as many questions as you like, I enjoy answering, it makes me feel useful, lol. Well, I'm not sure I've understood your question exactly, but yes, surplus kcal will increase fat and lbm, and a deficit will of course decrease them. But studies show that a short fast (8-15 hours) causes a net loss of approximately (for someone my size 5"11 170):

1 g/h protein

4 g/h fat

5 g/h carbs

 

In general for every gram of protein lost, 4-5 grams of fat are burned. So again this directly confirms that even during starvation protein is a minor contributor to energy expenditure (full glycogen capacity is usually somewhere between 700-1000g, or up to 4000kcal, and as it is depleted more protein is utilized to fill the gap). This is why bodybuilders can pig out for months to gain LBM, then diet a month before the competition to melt the fat off - they may lose some protein but overall they can make large gains. This is probably reminiscent of the ancestral environment - human metabolism was forced to evolve this way because of the physics of the macronutrients - fat is the most energy dense and by far the most efficient since it's ready for storage. So fat is our reserve fuel, carbs our performance fuel.

 

I'm not sure if I answered your question, hehe.. )

[the monkey]

I think you kind of did without knowing lol. What i was trying to say is lets put myself as an example i am 5'6, 135 lbs or around there with about 10% since i can see my upper abs but with not a lot of definition. According to the calculation at t-nation and other sites i have a BMR of about 1575-1600 kcal sometimes more like 1700 and some kcal. On the weekends i try to rest, doing at least something light like cardio for 45 minutes, calisthenics or some form of exercise, so my question is lets say that my BMR is the mentioned 1700kcal, if i consume less than this amount would my body recognize this input as starvation since i am not covering the amount for neccessary body functions? or if i factored in the calories from the exercise, would consuming a small surplus of calories consisting of pro+carbo create the effect you have mentioned (metabolizing fat/increase of metabolism/storage of net protein?)

[veganmaster]

I think you kind of did without knowing lol. What i was trying to say is lets put myself as an example i am 5'6, 135 lbs or around there with about 10% since i can see my upper abs but with not a lot of definition. According to the calculation at t-nation and other sites i have a BMR of about 1575-1600 kcal sometimes more like 1700 and some kcal. On the weekends i try to rest, doing at least something light like cardio for 45 minutes, calisthenics or some form of exercise, so my question is lets say that my BMR is the mentioned 1700kcal, if i consume less than this amount would my body recognize this input as starvation since i am not covering the amount for neccessary body functions? or if i factored in the calories from the exercise, would consuming a small surplus of calories consisting of pro+carbo create the effect you have mentioned (metabolizing fat/increase of metabolism/storage of net protein?)

 

 

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'd say you're overcomplicating things a little. Physically the body really doesn't have a choice: if it expends more energy than it takes in the deficit MUST be compensated via adipose tissue, glycogen, and protein stores. BMR is the body's theoretical minimum, but all that really matters is the actual energy deficit or surplus. I guess what I'm saying is that the laws of physics falsify the premise. Whatever the energy deficit, the body meets the deficit with its energy stores. The greater the gap the more is drawn from the energy bank. Anyway, hope I answered your question.

Edited June 28, 2008 by veganmaster

[the monkey]

yeah, again thanks a lot man

[the monkey]

Ok so i got the nutrition good as veganmaster and others have greatly helped me. Now i have a question concerning the exercise itself i am not sure what would be best to do 3 sets of 15-16 of each exercise or about 5 sets of 5-10 using a weigthed vest with ehough weight to make it hard but not lose perfect form to do bodyweight such as pull up variation, muscle ups, climb up, push ups, etc. Also what about combining both doing perhaps two sets of 15-16reps and then a set of 5-10 with ther vest?

[cubby2112]

I would say if your goal is to add strength and mass, focus on the vest.