Vegans short on 3 nutritents Meat eaters short on 7

[Emmybear]

Search for the thread "vitamin b12 defficiency" there is a link to the article....it mentions what you are talking about and said it was disproved and we can absorb it....I am not saying it is true..It was written by a raw foodist. I will have to do a search and see if anyone else has come to that conclusion.

 

 

http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html

 

here you go

[Richard]

Yo, I just wanted to give my perspective on the meat / dairy / healthy thing, since that seems to have caused some tension.

 

I don't think anybody is saying that if you eat even the smallest amount of meat or dairy that you will suddenly become "unhealthy". A diet which contains meat or dairy can be "healthy". However, the reason why that diet will be "healthy" is not because of the meat or dairy, it is because of the other things in the diet, which will be vegan. Introducing meat or dairy into a vegan's diet will not increase how "healthy" they are. Reducing the amount of dairy or meat in an omnivore's diet, and replacing them with a high-nutrient vegan food will most likely make the person "healthier". The point is that any amount of dairy or meat is unnecessary. It doesn't add anything more to your diet than you could get with a vegan alternative.

 

However, the trouble with this whole debate, is the word "healthy". This hasn't really been discussed, what does it really mean? People who don't have a chronic illness, who are able to run, take part in sport, walk long distances, have smooth stools, have clear urine, white teeth, fresh smelling breath, have X body fat percentage, able to bench press X lbs, able to keep an erection for X minutes... it can be interpreted a million ways.

 

However, when we look at a "healthy diet", surely we are looking at nutrient density more than anything, looking at how much of each vitamin and minerals there are in the foods, since those are the things our bodies need. The most nutrient dense foods are vegan; green leafy vegetables, followed by other vegetables and fruit. Meat and dairy are not dense in micronutrients, and there are other ways to get equal amounts of the macronutrients that meat and dairy have.

[Im Your Man]

Good post Richard.

 

And you're right, we should clarify the definition of the word "healthy" before vegans say things like : eating some lean meat and lots of fish could be part of a healthy diet.

 

A healthy diet contains lots of healthy foods and is low in bad foods or less healthy foods or contains none.

 

Definition of a healthy food:

 

Meat, fish, dairies are not healthy foods (at least not to humans) because they're dense in nocive nutrients like a bad sat./inst. fats ratio, cholesterol, toxins, etc. It's things that can be tolerated up to certain amounts by the body but it's better to not have any at all, therefore it is not considered as healthy foods. Yes it contains calcium, proteins and other things, so what?

A healthy vegan food could be for instance a potatoe (even if it has a high GI when cooked).

There is simply not unhealthy food in vegetal reign so I have to chose a food product: potato chips. A potato chip is not a healthy food because it contains bad quality rancid oil and potatoes fried into this, with added chimic seasonnings and preservatives.

 

Definition of a healthy person could be simply someone who is not sick, have no major disease, have a healthy weight, have all his physical abilities intact, etc.

But the person eating small amounts of fish, dairies etc may seem healthy but in 20 years he's gonna die of a cancer caused by those foods.

 

Of course a person who is eating right (lots of fruits and greens) and just a bit of lean meat and fish could still be labelled as a "healthy" person. But less healthy than the one who refrain totally from those products.

Samething with a vegan eating lots of fruits and greens but eating just small amounts of potato chips is still a healthy person, but less than a vegan who don't eat the potato chips.

[Richard]

Of course a person who is eating right (lots of fruits and greens) and just a bit of lean meat and fish could still be labelled as a "healthy" person. But less healthy than the one who refrain totally from those products.

Samething with a vegan eating lots of fruits and greens but eating just small amounts of potato chips is still a healthy person, but less than a vegan who don't eat the potato chips.

 

Yeah exactly. You can eat a small amount of any unhealthy food such as potato chips, ice cream, pancakes etc, and still be in good shape and healthy. But it doesn't make those things healthy, the person is healthy despite those things, like with dairy. You could theoretically eat some dairy and be fine, but it wouldn't be the dairy that's making you fine

[Fallen_Horse]

b. we make our own b-12

c. anything that contains b complex has b-12(not just meat...the b12 was made in the bodies of animals)

No, no, no. Give me 1 study supporting this.

[ChaserHUN]

Look, if you are so against veganism, why do you come here? We make some B12 but we can only use it if our body works well, and there are natural source of B12 like kombucha, alfalfa, spirulina, and if we wouldn't wash everything, just pick it in the nature we would get B12

[aura]

I agree with you, good point.

Blah blah blah, I hate these studies.

 

You can't compare two groups of people, one whom never watches what they eat, and another who must watch it constantly, and expect any good results for those who don't watch what they eat. Of course a vegan diet is usually healthier than the Standard American Diet, that's why it's called SAD!

 

Do a study on health freak omni's versus health freak vegans and I will be more interested...

 

Thing is : what is a meat-eater who watch what he eats?

First of all, they're the minority, so it wouldn't be realistic to chose only healthy omnis for a study because they do not represent the majoity of omnis. While most vegans watch what they eat so it's just obvious that it's the samething with the vegans that participate in that clinic. The study is pertinent if the participants in omnis and vegans groups are chosen randomly, so it automatically represent the reality.

Second: a meat-eater who watch what he eats is a bit contradictory, it,s just someone who tries his best but his sources for informations are not good otherwise he would be vegan.

Finally: a meat-eater who watch what he eats could be someone who simply eats less animal products and in low-fat versions, eats more fruits and veggies, replace white bread and white rice by whole grains, etc. It would give results maybe similar to Vegeterians VS Vegans, but vegans would still win.

[Endy]

You can't compare two groups of people, one whom never watches what they eat, and another who must watch it constantly, and expect any good results for those who don't watch what they eat. Of course a vegan diet is usually healthier than the Standard American Diet, that's why it's called SAD!

 

 

I haven't read through most of the posts yet, but from what I have seen so far, I think Fallen Horse has a point with the part I quoted. I'm going to play advocatus diaboli and stingy scientist here for a second.

 

My comments are only relevant to the article at the beginning of this thread and not other studies. This is not a statement saying one diet is better than the other. I prefer vegan, and this will always be my bias.

 

I really struggle with the idea of comparing vegans with the mainstream population just as they are. I'd rather see vegan athletes vs. non-vegan athletes or better-chosen groups.

 

When you compare two separate groups, you really do have a lot of statistical problems to consider, and that's on top of your regular challenges (Functional Form Misspecification, Random Sampling, Zero Conditional Mean, etc. . . ). There ARE workarounds, but the more steps you take, generally the more room for error and misinterpretation.

 

Subjectively, I think a vegan diet is wonderful. The scientist in me, however, insists on a much higher standard of objectivity before claiming empirical evidence. There may very well be powerful, profound evidence (I'm not in biology, so I don't know much), and I really want to see it. You guys probably have great studies that I'd love to read.

 

But comparing the groups like the article above really serves more of my subjective interest than my objective interest. It makes me feel better about watching my diet as a vegan, but does not tell me how I should view Vegan Vinny versus Meaty Mike.

[Richard]

Look, if you are so against veganism, why do you come here? We make some B12 but we can only use it if our body works well, and there are natural source of B12 like kombucha, alfalfa, spirulina, and if we wouldn't wash everything, just pick it in the nature we would get B12

 

I don't think they're against veganism. They are talking about benefits of an omnivorous diet, but they've chosen to be vegan personally, so they must be pro veganism, they said earlier about ethical and evironmental reasons

[Im Your Man]

Look, if you are so against veganism, why do you come here? We make some B12 but we can only use it if our body works well, and there are natural source of B12 like kombucha, alfalfa, spirulina, and if we wouldn't wash everything, just pick it in the nature we would get B12

 

I don't think they're against veganism. They are talking about benefits of an omnivorous diet, but they've chosen to be vegan personally, so they must be pro veganism, they said earlier about ethical and evironmental reasons

 

Some are saying that eating meat and stuff isn't an obstacle to good health and that in someway it can be considered as healthy foods. But I guess they mean that small amounts of meat isn't benefical and add nothing good, nor does it do too much damage.

But to those saying that eating meat is benefical to health and that milk is a healthy food they wouldn't avoid if it wasn't because of ethical reasons, this is too much!

 

Like most of us, I haven't been always vegan, I was eating meat, fish, dairies, everything during most of my life, and I can truly say now that I have more energy and feel better on a vegan diet. If for some of you it is not the case, I suggest you to adjust your vegan diet with more whole foods such as fruits and greens. I noticed the only times where I feel tired and have no energy are days that I eat too much junks. Those stimulating foods (and extra calories) may give extra energy the first day but after a few days of processed foods the body starts to wither and physical capacities decrease.

[xjohanx]

when i went from omni to veg i felt little to no difference and when i went from veg to vegan i felt no difference either. sure i'm in better shape now but i never worked out before i went vegan. i seriously think this discussion is totally useless since i'm vegan for ethical reasons and even if someone proved to me that i would be 10 times healthier eating fish/dairy/meat/eggs i still wouldn't consume that shit.

[xjohanx]

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/77/2

 

Stop with all the fluff. Dairy being unhealthy is just nonsense. Look at that profile. Tell me it's not a good source of protein, Vitamin A, Pantothenic Acid, Potassium, Selenium, Vitamin D, Riboflavin, Vitamin B12, Calcium and Phosphorus.

 

dude, are you kidding? i mean nonfat milk with added vitamins?? of course you think it has a good profile. real milk has about as much fat as protein and even more carbs.

[HCPinGviini]

Fallen horse said, that we shouldn't compare omnivorously eating individuals to those, who have vegan diet and who consciously watch what they eat. But there's a problem there.

 

I mean that many omnivores THINK that eating meat, dairy and eggs is just enough to be healthy and get all the nutrition you'll need to live healthy. And they just aren't aware of that what they eat isn't enough - that it's also important for them to eat green veggies, beans and that sort of things.

 

Omnivores are so brainwashed to think that only the ones that refuse to eat meat/dairy/eggs are the ones that should look after what they eat. So they just don't give a damn about what they themselves eat.

 

My relatives are very meat-and-dairy-consuming people and it shows. My father (over 50-year-old) has very high blood pressure, my mother and both my mothers parents have diabetes (type two). I told my father, that his blood pressure would surely drop, if he stopped eating meat and he just laughed at me. So I borrowed his blood pressure indicator (sphygmomanometer) and showed him my blood pressure (115/55). He really was impressed then, but he still consumes more meat and dairy than he should.

 

I think he's eating those (blood pressure medicine) pills for the rest of his life.

 

But yeah, my point was to say that meateaters should also watch more carefully what they eat and so it's only educational for them to see that average vegan has less deficiencies than average meateater. It's kind of mind-opening.

[Im Your Man]

even if someone proved to me that i would be 10 times healthier eating fish/dairy/meat/eggs i still wouldn't consume that shit.

 

Now you're talking

 

Omnivores are so brainwashed to think that only the ones that refuse to eat meat/dairy/eggs are the ones that should look after what they eat. So they just don't give a damn about what they themselves eat.

 

So true

 

 

My relatives are very meat-and-dairy-consuming people and it shows. My father (over 50-year-old) has very high blood pressure, my mother and both my mothers parents have diabetes (type two). I told my father, that his blood pressure would surely drop, if he stopped eating meat and he just laughed at me. So I borrowed his blood pressure indicator (sphygmomanometer) and showed him my blood pressure (115/55). He really was impressed then, but he still consumes more meat and dairy than he should.

 

I think he's eating those (blood pressure medicine) pills for the rest of his life.

 

It's sad but true : omnis eat their meat and dairies, their bacon&eggs for breakfast, and then need to take their pills. They need medecine for what they eat. Yet they don't make the connection. If the doctor says their blood pressure and cholesterol are too high, he will gently advice to slow down on fatty meats and dairies but he will also prescribe pills. If the person stops eating those foods, he will be able to stop taking the pills. But most people don't wanna change.

I too have a low blood pressure (low according to standards, but actually it is normal, not low).

Many years ago when I was vegeterian and had about the same blood pressure because I wasn't eating that much dairies and I was doing lots of exercise, I was a participant in some studies to earn extra cash, and when the nurses took my blood pressure, they always said it was too low and not normal and that I should go to the doctor to have it checked. So most of the time they would refuse me as a participant for the study. They need people with normal health, not good health, lol.

[ChaserHUN]

I was a bad eater before, my daily intake was about a bread with some sausage, and sometime some pastas and that's all, than I tried eating a lot of meat(because of that blood-eating stupid thing) I felt horrible, I went to school, I fell to sleep 3 times in school, I came home and I slept again, than I started reading books about eye-sight and included fruits and veggies in my diet, I felt much better, than I red lot of things about dairy and other, and saw the Vegan Fitness Built Naturally DVD and went vegan, and I realized that I love so much animals I don't wan to do this, I felt much better than on my old diet, but the real energy bomb was when I started eating mostly raw, sometimes I crave in to the "bad" things but I try to stay mostly raw and Brendan said that because it's vegan it doesn't mean it's healthy, when I was eating lot of fake meat etc. I didn't had that much energy and that performance that I have now

[veganmaster]

You guys are hitting upon a very important topic when you ask "what is healthy." Most people simply do not realize that even eating small amounts of animal foods can lead to chronic disease. The China Study showed this in spades - even amounts of meat that might seem trivial increased disease risk. Animal foods and their waste products (high-sulfur, acidic proteins, cholesterol, saturated fats, toxins, etc.) cause disease in human beings in a dose-dependent fashion. When I say a healthy diet, I mean a diet that keeps arteries clean and organs and the whole body functioning on a very high level - a NORMAL level, in fact. The body only falters when the wrong fuel is regularly used for energy needs. For example, in my experience, a healthy body fights off an average cold virus in just a couple days, with only a mild sore throat at most. On the SAD diet, I thought occasionally getting a lingering chest cold was "normal." Yet I only perceived it as normal because everyone else I knew was eating significant amounts of animal foods. If you go to a Dr. in the U.S. and are told you "are doing fine" and you have a "normal cholesterol" - then you are likely NOT healthy, because any cholesterol level over 150 (indicating animal food consumption) likely means your arteries are lined with plaque. Every day someone is given a thumbs-up on their cholesterol test, and then they drop dead soon after. The wonderful George Carlin may be an example of this. He had chest pains, then died - yet he looked healthy outwardly.

 

The point is, the human body has X potential for healing, and X is maximized via a plant diet + exercise. Every gram of Y (animal foods) you add to the equation directly increases the workload required to maintain and detoxify the human body. The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly shows that primates and humans (and all herbivores for that matter) can easily develop disease when animal products are eaten. Whenever the body is given TIME to heal without ANY additional burden of animal food (vegan diet or fasting) - the disease processes begin to reverse. The problem is most people eat animal foods many times a day, which guarantees development of disease. For example, autopsy studies reveal that even children and sometimes babies ALREADY have artery disease - because as soon as the body's healing potential is overwhelmed with the regular intake of animal food, the consequences begin to mount, the arteries begin to be lined with plaque, the bones begin to dissolve to buffer the acid load, etc. Often you will hear strength/bodybuilders talk about eating "clean" - which to them just means avoiding processed food and eating meat/dairy/fruits/grains/veggies. But they ignore the evidence if they believe eating meat daily leads to good health - and every day this is proven when fitness enthusiasts drop dead from heart attacks, just like the founder of jogging so famously did. Simply put, exercise will not clean your arteries or internal organs - only time away from the causative factors will allow the body to heal!

People fail to realize just how quickly animal foods can harm - I think Supersize Me is a rare antidote to this. So, yes, theoretically one can be as healthy as an exercising vegan and eat meat - but the catch is the person would HAVE TO include long periods of vegan eating and/or fasting to keep up with reversing the damage. In fact this is exactly what caloric restriction is about, though it's participants do not usually understand it - they simply think "less kcal = better health" without realizing the lopsided effect of animal foods on human health.

 

Oh, also on the B12 issue, I recommend reading this:

Vitamin B12 Deficiency—the Meat-eaters’ Last Stand

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

[Im Your Man]

I haven't read your last post yet VeganMaster and I'm sure I'll find it very interesting but I just wanted to write something before I forget it.

 

Lots of omnis (and now surprise some vegans) say it is healthy to eat small amounts of lean meat and fish. I don't think it is true. Our digestive system is not made to digest (and leave the digestive tract) meat in 2 hours like carnivore animals, therefore meat - and fish even faster - rot in our bodies for 48-72 hours, basically about 3 days. Just put some fish under the sun for 30 minutes, it will give you an idea what it can smell and look like after 3 days. While most fruits and greens will be just fine if left on your counter for days and some wll even sprouts and grow. The difference is that it's alive, while meat and fish are dead and rotten. How can people say dead food is healthy?

Just a tiny quantity of meat, even just a bite, is gonna stay for days in your body and your body is stressed until it gets rid of it. If you eat a tiny portion of meat-dairy-fish whatever only every 3 days, the body has never time to completely heal itself and is healing 24/7. Do we want to thrive or survive?

 

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/77/2

 

Stop with all the fluff. Dairy being unhealthy is just nonsense. Look at that profile. Tell me it's not a good source of protein, Vitamin A, Pantothenic Acid, Potassium, Selenium, Vitamin D, Riboflavin, Vitamin B12, Calcium and Phosphorus.

 

dude, are you kidding? i mean nonfat milk with added vitamins?? of course you think it has a good profile. real milk has about as much fat as protein and even more carbs.

 

ahah yeah I tought the samething when I first read this.

FallenHorse, you forgot to say the other healthy nutrients found in milk, such as saturated fats, cholesterol, grownt hormones, antibiotics, gmo and pesticides from the gmo foods the cows are fed with.

Not to mention that milk contains pus. We all know that pus is very healthy LOL.

Milk is also pasteurized and highly acidic, it takes the calcium out of your body and is rise risks of causing dozens of diseases such as osteoporosis, breast cancer and other cancers.

 

http://www.notmilk.com/

http://www.milksucks.com/index2.asp

http://www.nomilk.com/

[Fallen_Horse]

People fail to realize just how quickly animal foods can harm - I think Supersize Me is a rare antidote to this.

Supersize Me was in no way a legitimate study of meat eating. Again, he looked at one of the worst possible diets, and then compared to to a healthy vegan (or near vegan) diet. It's SAD vs. veganism all over again.

 

 

FallenHorse, you forgot to say the other healthy nutrients found in milk, such as saturated fats, cholesterol, grownt hormones, antibiotics, gmo and pesticides from the gmo foods the cows are fed with.

Not to mention that milk contains pus. We all know that pus is very healthy LOL.

Milk is also pasteurized and highly acidic, it takes the calcium out of your body and is rise risks of causing dozens of diseases such as osteoporosis, breast cancer and other cancers.

Skim milk is 99% fat free, so there is almost no saturated fat. (and look at avocados, oils, etc.)

Hormones, antibiotics, gmo and pesticides are all limited in organic milk. (and veggies have gmo and pesticides too so...)

Show me a study that says pus is unhealthy. Sounds silly right? That's because pus shouldn't even be involved in this discussion. It has no relation to nutrition.

Many studies have shown that milk is slightly calcium positive. That is, it takes 95% of the calcium it provides. That's still a 5% net gain.

Juice is pasteurized too. Should we remove that from our vegan diet?

[Zack]

I'll agree that an omnivorous diet can be just as healthy. Other primates are omnivorous in one way or another. The problem is the ratio that most people eat in. Animals products, if eaten, should be a supplement to a largely plant-based diet, like a chimp does.

 

I still do not believe in dairy being healthy though.

[Im Your Man]

 

 

FallenHorse, you forgot to say the other healthy nutrients found in milk, such as saturated fats, cholesterol, grownt hormones, antibiotics, gmo and pesticides from the gmo foods the cows are fed with.

Not to mention that milk contains pus. We all know that pus is very healthy LOL.

Milk is also pasteurized and highly acidic, it takes the calcium out of your body and is rise risks of causing dozens of diseases such as osteoporosis, breast cancer and other cancers.

 

Skim milk is 99% fat free, so there is almost no saturated fat. (and look at avocados, oils, etc.)

Try to find organic skim milk. And avocados, veg.oils are rich in insaturated fats, which lower saturated fats intake and make the perfect balance for the body. We don't want 99% fat free products like skim milk, because fats are crucial for for health such has a nice skin, and for optimum synergy of all hormones and organs functions, for efficient vitamins and nutrients assimilation.

Hormones, antibiotics, gmo and pesticides are all limited in organic milk. (and veggies have gmo and pesticides too so...)

Most people can find organic fruits and greens, but try to find organic unpasteurized raw milk that comes from a healthy cow in a store. You would have to go climb a mountain in the Alps and take the fresh milk yourself out of the teats of a cow. And even if you would do so, milk is simply not good for humans. It's not even good for cows, just calves.

Show me a study that says pus is unhealthy. Sounds silly right? That's because pus shouldn't even be involved in this discussion. It has no relation to nutrition.

exactly, it has no relation to nutrition, that's why it shouldn't be in food in the first place. It's involved in the discussion simply because there is pus in the milk, and we're talking about milk, remember? And yes it is unhealthy, it's the best vector for viruses possible and that's one of the many reason industry pasteurize milk and why drinking raw milk or eating raw cheese can be dangerous. If you wanna get sick, drink the pus of someone else.

Many studies have shown that milk is slightly calcium positive. That is, it takes 95% of the calcium it provides. That's still a 5% net gain.

wow, that should be enough reason to drink milk right?

Juice is pasteurized too. Should we remove that from our vegan diet?

Yes. Make your own juices or eat organic fresh fruits.

 

But I don't care, drink cow's milk if you think it is so good.

 

There was omnis telling me they tried soy milks but didn't like the taste of the unsweetened one (even if they claim it was to put in their coffee with sugar or to pour into their sugary cereals ) and so they didn't see the point of buying sweetened soy milks because of the sugar content... Well, look at sweetened soy drinks, it contains less sugar than cow's milk! 6g versus 9-12g per 250ml. And chocolate milk contains nearly twice sugar than chocolate soy milks.

Besides, organic soy milks are more available and no need to bother cows.

[veganmaster]

Many studies have shown that milk is slightly calcium positive. That is, it takes 95% of the calcium it provides. That's still a 5% net gain.

Juice is pasteurized too. Should we remove that from our vegan diet?

 

Sorry, but the literature overall does not support that at all - certainly industry interests love trying to design studies to show dairy products in a good light - many studies are supported via the dairy industry of course, but what you will find, is even those studies when you actually examine the data and ignore the hype - they usually reflect reality: all animal products are poor fuel for the human machine. If what you claim is true, then why do osteoporosis rates rise with increased dairy intake - all over the world, populations that eat more dairy have more hip fractures. And it is NOT a mystery why, the basic science has long revealed that acidic animal proteins (high in sulfur containing amino acids compared to plant protein) leach calcium directly from the bones in order to buffer the acid load - the body keeps pH balance in a very tight range. And the research has used meat and dairy proteins to show this. A single avenue of study can be manipulated via junk science, but the overall reality is reflected in the big picture. This reminds me of a dairy industry funded study that Dr. McDougall has used in lectures as an example - I think it was about how many glasses of milk per day postmenopausal women drank. Well, the result showed that the more milk they drank, the more hip fractures they had, the worse off their bones were. McDougall explains this, shows some of the data, and then says how the study is 20 or 30 years old and they never used that methodology again, because it reflects reality too clearly and they aren't interested in the truth, they have a product to sell. All animal foods are pretty similar, yet I would agree with some others that dairy is basically liquid meat, & probably worse healthwise than meat. But I don't know, that's quite a battle Dairy Vs. Meat - both are nutritional science superstars when it comes to causing chronic disease!

[Emmybear]

when i went from omni to veg i felt little to no difference and when i went from veg to vegan i felt no difference either. sure i'm in better shape now but i never worked out before i went vegan. i seriously think this discussion is totally useless since i'm vegan for ethical reasons and even if someone proved to me that i would be 10 times healthier eating fish/dairy/meat/eggs i still wouldn't consume that shit.

 

 

me either!