I have a question.

[markc7]

markc7, I have to disagree with you again.

 

It may be an arrogance of mine, but I feel that asking whether or not plants suffer reflects an unsophisticated understanding. Such people would not be likely to bring your rejoinders. Those who could would not ask such a question in the first place.

 

Heh, I had actually forgotten that this thread was about the silly plant's have feelings argument. I was responding more to the CNS = capacity to feel pain argument in general. So yeah, I'd have to agree with you that most people who use the plants have feelings argument are probably not going to know much about neurological differences between animals.

[Im Your Man]

I missed that topic. But there was one similar about a month ago with good accumulated infos:

Broccoli vs animals , and the article that started it all and answer well to all questions about plant suffering : http://www.vegetus.org/essay/plants.htm

 

I haven't read the posts here yet but I find the argument about plant suffering one of the most ridiculous argument omnis use. Meat eaters kill hundred of times more plants because of the animals that need to be fed, so according to their argument they should become vegan now so they can kill less plants.

[Im Your Man]

I've read the posts, interesting. About lobsters, invertebral animals such as snails, no CNS thing, et cetera. When an omni argue that those animals don't feel pain or don't have feelings, in a discussion we could reply:

 

a painless death is still death, it kills life.

Have you ever seen 2 snails making love ? they seem to have more feelings than most humans fucking.

This quote:

"Lobsters are fascinating. The have a long childhood and an awkward adolescence. The use complicated signals to explore and establish social relationships with others. Their communications are direct and sophisticated. They flirt. Their pregnancies last for nine months. Some are right handed, some left handed. They've even been seen walking hand-in-hand. Some can live to be more than 150 years old, though few (1%) survive the world's most devastating predator-the species with whom lobsters share so many traits-the human being."

 

Ingrid Newkirk

National Director: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA)

[DaN]

In the original post you said that your father said humans were meant to eat meat:

 

1.The human being has no claws which nearly all carnivors do.

 

2.We only have 4 teeth designed to chew the meat which are likely to have evolved after we branched away from the ape family.True carnivores have nearly all 'meat eating teeth'

 

3.The Ape family - our nearest relatives have only around 4% meat in their natural diet - while in other cases they have none in their diet.

 

4.Our saliva is alkaline, like all herbivore animals.Carnivores have acidic saliva.

 

5.Our digestive system, in ratio to our size, matches herbivors & not carnivors (whose intestines are shorter)

 

6.Carnivires jaws mainly go up & down only to chew flesh, while herbivores go side to side to chew vegetation.Ours do both but again like the teeth this is likely to have evolved only since we branched away from the ape family.

 

7.Our natural sense of smell, eyesight, hearing, mobility, speed & strengh are all far lower than true carnivore animals & are far more in line with herbivores.It is only our ability to fashion tools & our increased brain activity (which is as yet unexplained) that enabled us to eat meat at all.

 

Science doesnt lie - we are naturally vegetarian.

 

[DaN]

Oh & as for the plant pain thing.

 

My argument is that we dont actually know whether they do or not.Pain is a subjective word for a subjective feeling/response or emotion.It takes a commitment to the truth to admit that 'we dont know'

 

All I would say is that they are 'alive'

 

However if we cant eat plants, would we lick moss of off rocks?

 

[veganmaster]

Check out my post on this page (especially the 2 links I provide, which document why we are biological herbivores - actually the whole thread is good):

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13766&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

 

Simply put, biological science and nutritional science robustly support the fact that humans are biologically herbivorous primates, designed via millions of years of evolution to specialize in processing plant foods (when you look at the long checklist of characteristics of herbivores, we match up perfectly - there is simply no substantial evidence supporting the silly contention that we are carnivores). We can only handle very occasional intake of animal foods without severe long term consequences.