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I saw that on the news today... now my question is this: having that information, and knowing that *most* teenagers have *probably* considered suicide- what kind of a parent would have a gun in their house for "protection"... what do you think the ratio of people who have successfully protected themselves from an "invader" vs. people who have lost a child to suicide by their own gun is? I hate guns and I grew up with a gun enthusiast (my dad) (I have shot a gun many a time at a gun range as a CHILD) who regularly tells me that I could easily leave my children and husband grieving because I don't carry a gun... because there are all kinds of bad guys just waiting to rape and kill me in any given situation (on the way to the laundromat, in the parking lot of the grocery store/mall)... you wanna talk about bull shit..... that kind of fear mongering is bull shit, I would rather live my life risking getting shot in a parking lot than have a gun around for my kids to ever get their hands on.

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Without guns teenagers would just kill themselves by other means. New Zealand has very strict gun laws, yet the highest teen suicide rate in the world. Of course, Finland, the U.S. and Canada are also in the top 10 and they have very little gun regulation, so I guess you can interpret how you like.

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now my question is this: having that information, and knowing that *most* teenagers have *probably* considered suicide- what kind of a parent would have a gun in their house for "protection"...

 

I like that

 

Without guns teenagers would just kill themselves by other means.

 

I don't think it's true. Trying to kill yourself with a razor blade often fails (especially girls, boys cut deeper and more brutally) or other ways because they're scared, while using a gun is easier (just push the trigger) and rarely fails.

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Without guns teenagers would just kill themselves by other means. New Zealand has very strict gun laws, yet the highest teen suicide rate in the world. Of course, Finland, the U.S. and Canada are also in the top 10 and they have very little gun regulation, so I guess you can interpret how you like.

 

Correct me if I am wrong (and I could be wrong) but isn't NZ one of the unhappiest places in the world?? If they had more guns maybe they would have an EVEN higher teen suicide rate... just a thought

 

 

I don't think it's true. Trying to kill yourself with a razor blade often fails (especially girls, boys cut deeper and more brutally) or other ways because they're scared, while using a gun is easier (just push the trigger) and rarely fails.

 

that's my thought... killing yourself with a gun is pretty fool proof but it is pretty easy to NOT kill yourself when slitting your wrists or downing pills.... the thought of fucking up might even be enough to keep a kid from trying if they didn't have a "fool proof" gun.

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Im your man wrote:

 

I don't think it's true. Trying to kill yourself with a razor blade often fails (especially girls, boys cut deeper and more brutally) or other ways because they're scared, while using a gun is easier (just push the trigger) and rarely fails.

 

Exactly, the gun makes death a 1 inch movement of the finger.Never has it been made so easy.Even with a knife its a few feet of arm movement, & yes razors & knives etc are not guaranteed to kill you, whereas the gun is more effective.

 

This is why a civilized nation should not have legal guns.I feel sorry for good people who through fear end up buying a gun to protect themselves.

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Swallowing some over the counter meds seems easier than putting a bullet through your head to me.

What if you don't make it. It's like "failuuuure" then people look at you like you're an emo. I know a girl who did it twice, for a bf; if she'd had a gun she'd had still gone for the pills because all she wanted was attention

No but seriously, no need for guns or suicide. I like the movie "Hair".

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Swallowing some over the counter meds seems easier than putting a bullet through your head to me.

What if you don't make it. It's like "failuuuure" then people look at you like you're an emo. I know a girl who did it twice, for a bf; if she'd had a gun she'd had still gone for the pills because all she wanted was attention

No but seriously, no need for guns or suicide. I like the movie "Hair".

 

What's an "emo"? I always see that word but don't know yet what it means.

Zack , a bullet in the brain is almost 100% death efficiency, but pills have very low efficiency, most people who try this just end up at the hospital for a week or less, and they'll try 5 or 6 attempts like that and will never succeed, it's for those who don't have the courage to hang themselves (not so efficient neither except if done well) or jump from a bridge or skyscrapper. Now this last one is efficient! like also jump in front of a train. But few people have enough guts to do those, while pulling the trigger is easier.

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Just google "emo" and you'll get it pretty quick. I didn't see many of them in Montreal though. But perhaps that was just because the winter made the sad and they didn't go out. (I couldn't explain very well what an emo is)

I think that the right 5 or 6 pills would get you as dead as 5/6 bullets. But pills don't always have the blood effect.

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I mean look, yes pills are another method that may or may not be better/worse than a gun.I think we drifted off a little there.

 

All I am saying is that guns make death very easy, compared to other methods.

 

They must be better at killing, otherwise the army would not carry around guns but would carry around pills, or swords, or nooses (all examples of what people have suggested as being more effective than a gun)

 

Do you see the army carrying around packs of pills, nooses & swords?

 

No - because the gun is THE MOST EFFECTIVE way to induce death - FACT (I do not include tomahawk missiles, napalm, nuclear bombs etc for obvious reasons)

 

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I mean look, yes pills are another method that may or may not be better/worse than a gun.I think we drifted off a little there.

 

All I am saying is that guns make death very easy, compared to other methods.

 

They must be better at killing, otherwise the army would not carry around guns but would carry around pills, or swords, or nooses (all examples of what people have suggested as being more effective than a gun)

 

Do you see the army carrying around packs of pills, nooses & swords?

 

No - because the gun is THE MOST EFFECTIVE way to induce death - FACT (I do not include tomahawk missiles, napalm, nuclear bombs etc for obvious reasons)

 

 

lol

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What's an "emo"? I always see that word but don't know yet what it means.

 

I am a little out of touch with the lingo of kids these days but I think emo is the new goth??? I think it is a little more acceptable to be emo (more mainstream) now than it was to be goth back in my day.... yeah, that was kind of an embarrassing phase of my life-- maybe if "goth" were "emo" back then I wouldn't have been so traumatically picked on in high school

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I thought emo's were skater style people but a little more broad as a group than your straight up skater dudes (who by the way are cool in my opinion but I am an old man now at 27! - so what would I know!)

 

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I thought emo's were skater style people but a little more broad as a group than your straight up skater dudes (who by the way are cool in my opinion but I am an old man now at 27! - so what would I know!)

 

 

yeah... I'm an old 26 year old -old woman but I *think* that "emo" is kind of like goth/punk/skater/metrosexual (is that a word anymore?) combined???? Can one of you yunguns weigh in on this??? now I am curious... I guess I should google it : )

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Guns are more of a guarantee for suicide. If you are going to try swallowing some pills or poisoning yourself in some way, you need to have the proper amount for your body weight or you may end up just puking them up or whatnot.

 

I don't really know what my stance on gun ownership is. I definitely don't plan on owning one for self-protection, but that might change if I start a family. There are a lot of facets to consider. The liberal in me would like to say ban them completely, but those people who will generally use them to kill others will probably still find a way to get one.

 

An emo is kind of like a goth, but sort of punk-like also. It is basically a "sissy," more pretentious and mainstream form of goth.

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Cubby wrote:

 

An emo is kind of like a goth, but sort of punk-like also. It is basically a "sissy," more pretentious and mainstream form of goth

 

Lol

 

Veganmama wrote:

 

Can one of you yunguns weigh in on this???

 

Yes please can someone who is still young help us oldies out! Cubby I actually doubt your definition as you are clearly over 20 & therefore old like us

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Ok, well, I did my emo homework and looked it up on wiki and boy! was I surprised that emo is actually almost as old as me (!) I guess the term was coined in the mid 80s by some punk groups or their followers(originally short for emotional hardcore) and has morphed over the last 25 years or so into a term associated with such mainstream groups as Jimmy Eat World (a phoenix band that I hate) and Dashboard Confessional. I was also surprised to learn that Phoenix is supposed to be a big emo hub I guess. I think that the "poster boy" for emo these days is probably Pete Wentz of Fall Out Boy... or he is definitely the most high profile "emo" that I can think of. So I would say that cubby's definition was right on. Only I have to say that back in my day there were many a pretentious goth!! So that is not exclusive to the emo scene

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I would have joined this discussion earlier but I haven't been on the forum much lately and only recently noticed this topic. I'll try to reply to most of the main points folks have raised as I feel strongly about the issues involved and have put a considerable amount of time into researching, discussing & contemplating these subjects. That said, it's late and I should probably be sleeping so I'll likely miss some things I wanted to address...

 

I firmly and completely support our human right to armed self defense. Not only do I own guns for that reason, I also do firearms training and advocacy work / educational outreach in support of that right. Simply put, I do not want to be in the situation where only the police and other criminal thugs are armed! You may find it interesting to know that I grew up with a generally neutral to negative opinion of guns and have only changed my opinion as a result of personal experience and educating myself on the issues involved.

 

I've also studied the gun / self-defense laws, realities & cultures of various countries around the world. I feel educated enough to discuss these issues (at least in a general way) for the United States, Canada, Mexico, Costa Rica, Argentina, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Scotland, England, Sweden, Germany, Norway, Finland, France, Spain, Switzerland, Austria & Italy. I am far from an expert but I'm confident that I've looked into this more than the vast majority of people on any side of these debates!

 

By the way, while legal ownership of guns is highly restricted in the UK - guns are certainly NOT banned there. Legal gun ownership there is amazingly common when you consider all of the legal & related hurdles UK gun-owners have to put up with! Sadly, it is essentially illegal to own or carry ANY item at all in the UK for the purpose of active self-defense... It is well worth noting that Britain & Scotland, both with some of the most intensely restrictive firearms & self-defense laws on the planet, were rated as being the most violent developed countries by the United Nations. Both are also facing increasingly higher levels of violence and crime - including gun-related violence!

 

Most other countries have both far higher levels of gun-ownership AND far lower levels of violence than does the UK. Gun-ownership is actually quite common in virtually all of the worlds most prosperous and peaceful countries: Canada, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland & Costa Rica are all great examples of this.

 

There are millions of people around the world who legally own guns for purposes such as self-defense, collecting or sport-shooting. The overwhelming majority of these people and their guns have not ever and will not ever harm anyone. The number of malicious or negligent misuse of firearms shrink still further and become virtually non-existent when we look at folks who own their guns for defensive purposes and who have received even fairly basic training in their use.

 

The simple fact is that guns are not the cause of violence and restricting or prohibiting your average person from being able to own or use guns for defensive purposes will not make anyone safer. What it will definitely do is make us all far less free and it also makes it far easier for both violent thugs and oppressive governments to commit their brutal atrocities.

 

Owning a gun is a serious responsibility and is certainly not for everyone - but everyone must have be able to act upon their right to decide the issue for themselves! As always, education & choice are essential.

 

Ps. I also want to respond to some people specifically:

 

* VeganMama: I'm a parent too and am happy to discuss how to respond to your children possibly (probably!) encountering guns in their friends homes and elsewhere.

 

* Dontxhide: So... what gun/s did you get? More importantly, what are your plans for getting professional defensive firearms training? By the way, I also lost whatever respect I had for Mike Moore over his attacks on gun-owners and Mumia Abu-Jamal.

 

* Offense: The NRA does not shape public opinion on guns so much as it represents the beliefs of gun-owners. Actually the NRA frequently fails to represent gun-owners interests until forced to do so by grassroots activists who demand and defend our right to armed self-defense!

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I'm certainly anti-gun; however, when I had one in my possession, I did not feel that I was going to get into such a fight with anyone that I'd blow my stack and shoot them in a fog of rage. Though, I do think, volatile people who have manic personalities, for example, would be the sorts who would do something like that. And I do believe that no one is above killing out of passion; I'm sure there is some scenario that could cause even the mildest of pacifists to lose it.

 

I'm not conflicted about the citizenry having guns -- they shouldn't, but lovelib (or is it loveconserv? ;P) makes a provacative note:

 

"Simply put, I do not want to be in the situation where only the police and other criminal thugs are armed!"

 

However, for me, it would be,

 

"I do not want to be in the situation where only the governments are armed."

 

This, only recently: Having felt "imprisoned" or that one's hands are tied, helpless/hopeless for the last 8 years, it's damn scary to think of these criminal thugs as being the only thugs with weapons.

(Who wants Dick at their July 4 celebration? The invite will get you a shot in the rear.)

 

so, I guess, I'm in a place of re-evaluating. Banishing all weaponry is ideal; but who, aside from the Messiah, can bring that about? I guess some are hoping Obama is He -- hope springs eternal.

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