Girls and pull ups

[Fallen_Horse]

You don't live on earth? I don't know a single person who can do at least 25 pull ups so I think 1 in 1000 isn't a bad guess

I gotta agree here. Even the superfit people I know can only get about 15 or so...

[VeganEssentials]

Keeping off topic...

 

I agree that finding a person who can do 25 pull-ups in good form is an absolute rarity. I have watched hundreds of different people do chins/pull ups over the last 12+ years of training in various gyms, and I've never seen anyone, big or small, who did more than about 15-18 in a set. 25 is a VERY high number for the average person, and many people find that, when they get to a certain number, pushing it further is anything but easy. If it were so easy to get to 25 pull-ups, then it would have to be equally easy to take your max bench of, say, 200 lbs. for 10 reps and work your way to 50 reps over a few years of practice. Of course, we know that isn't how things work - some people are built to excel at one lift and are weak at another, so using a number for pull-ups as a definition of fitness is as relevant as using someone's Zercher lift or Turkish Get-Up max for reps as a guideline for the definition. Fitness can be a variety of things - there's no good way to define it, so once people start throwing out numbers (usually in things that they excel at) as being ideals, it skews the whole thing with bias and doesn't really do any justice to the true nature of the term, which cannot be explained as a set "fitness level" since everyone is different. A person may not be able to do 25 pull-ups, but if they can do 20-rep squats with more than bodyweight, can overhead press bodyweight for high reps easily, and can move a big, heavy television better than the pull-up guy, who really is more fit? That's why defiining fitness based on a number in a given lift is far too arbitrary and useless as a description that it can do more harm than good when being used as a benchmark by people who are just getting into training to be stronger/in better shape. If someone had told me that anything under 25 consecutive pull-ups was considered less than fit, I'd have quit the iron game many years ago out of frustration

 

It's a lot like that table that was posted here for the "strength levels" in squat, deadlift, and bench - those numbers, while taken at an average, are still just numbers and don't reflect one's true capability. For example, Andy Bolton (world's heaviest competition deadlift of over 1000 lbs.) pulled around 500 lbs. on his first ever deadlift attempt. He may have ended up on the "advanced" level and been close to "elite" on his first ever attempt, but was that a true reflection of what his actual level was? Of course not - the guy went on to double his deadlift and hit a number that nobody believed was possible. Another guy may deadlift for a decade and try every program, giving 100% and eating to gain strength every day and only make the advanced mark at best, even if that's the maximum of what he's mechanically able to perform in the lift at his best. Everyone's different, so numbers or rankings for considering a certain level of fitness or similar situation are completely arbitrary and should be taken with a grain of salt since what one person may excel at, another may not do so well simply because of body mechanics and a propensity to do better in other areas.

 

You don't live on earth? I don't know a single person who can do at least 25 pull ups so I think 1 in 1000 isn't a bad guess

I gotta agree here. Even the superfit people I know can only get about 15 or so...

[DaN]

Personally, fit has never meant lifting big weight or doing pullups to me.

 

I always thought the fittest people were people who could run for like 20 miles or swim like 200 laps or whatever.That has always impressed me.

 

I can lift big weights (for me) but because I dont do enough cardio my running or swimming stamina is not so great.My girlfriend can swim & run longer than me, & as such I actually believe she is 'fitter' than me.

 

If you look at it from a real life situation, neither lifting weight or doing pullups is particularily that useful.But I think stamina is...

 

Would you guys agree?

[Im Your Man]

If you think only 1 person out of a thousand is able to do at least 25 pull-ups you live on another planet.

You don't live on earth? I don't know a single person who can do at least 25 pull ups so I think 1 in 1000 isn't a bad guess

Yes I live on Earth. And you? Too bad you don't know me, I would have been the only person. But if you know 1000 persons, did you ask all of them or you just presume they can't, like you do with me?

Neither you or I are fit according your definition

well, talk for yourself, I'm doing 30.

I meant neither of us was fit by your second definition(a person who has... almost reached 100% of his potential). Although honestly I don't believe you that you can do 30 pull ups and I'll only believe you can do a 30 rep set of pull ups after I see a video. And reading your long I never seen 30 pull ups listed either.

 

So sometimes you talk about my first definition and sometimes about my 2nd without telling which one, no wonder I can't agree with you if I can't understand what you're talking about. And BTW it wasn't meant really to be a definition, "25 pull-ups" is just a number I've read in a bobybuilding magazine and according to the author it's used as a standard for a very basic-maybe innaccurate- way to define levels of fitness, like "30 push-ups" for instead, that's all. I'm not the editor of this magazine so if you don't agree go talk to him, not me. I don't find this exercise very accurate neither for defining fitness, but there's not a single exercise that is, only a complex test combining many exercises could be, and that "25 pull-ups" was a part of it, there was also push-ups, squats, running, etc, all bodyweight stuff, and at the end of the test you get an idea how fit you can consider yourself. It's different to a what we can find in a dictionnary, this is real life. If I said it was a good definition, well sorry but I changed and come back on my words. People change, it's a quality for humans, the faculty to change, adapt and evolve.

Haven't you noticed there's almost no numbers of reps and sets listed (except a few months ago), so obviously it's normal that you didn't see "30 pull-ups " listed. But this debate put me in the mood to do pull-ups, so yesterday after reading your post I did some, I'm almost not training since several weeks so I didn't do 30, but more than 25. So now it's listed in my log, just for you, because you're so special.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10736&p=150652#p150652

You should believe me when I say something. Like for instance, I can't bench heavy. I haven't been in a gym for many many months and am doing only bodyweight training. Why do I believe you when you say you can lift heavy things from the ground? I don't ask anybody to prove themselves in front of me. I don't have anything to prove to anybody but myself. Bruce Lee said "II'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine." Also you should learn to accept other's opinions even when you don't agree with them. I didn't say anything about your opinions and I find it aberrant I need to continously defend my opinions from your attacks. Each person is different and each person has different opinions and perceives things in different ways.

I don't really care if you don't believe me, and I don't care what people think of me (if you think I'm a liar), but

I'll make a good film just for you, for sure during this month, it's my comeback to resistance traning, just to prove you it can be done if you didn't know it yet, and maybe after this you'll change your mentality, you'll listen to what others have to say, you'll believe more in what is possible when we believe in it.

 

There is a lot of personal and social value in being fit. If you make being fit so hard that most could never achieve it you are doing real social harm(by reducing their social prestige) and personal harm(confidence, motivation, etc.)

I made a second definition, remember ? "a person who has achieved good physical abilities according to HIS OWN physical potential or almost reached 100% of his potential". That doesn't seem to me very harmful, it's rather very encouraging and motivates oneself to push his limits to his maximum and surpass himself.

But you seem to stick to my first definition as if you want to argue or try to prove something.

If you don't like my definition or find it "silly" and that you're so smart, make your own definitions.

 

Did you read what I said about the social value of being fit? That's why a definition of fit that excludes almost everyone is harmful. Most people can never achieve 100% physically, nor should they be expected to. I haven't offered a definition because the vague English definition is enough for me, no reason, no need to complicate it with silly criteria or unrealistic demands.

 

Here's a definition (not mine, I just translated it from French) : The physical condition is composed mainly of the qualities of strength, speed, endurance, flexibility and coordination. To improve, the personal trainer must carry out training of 5 elements previously cited.

My definition of someone fit is when someone excel at all those 5 elements.

 

Now that's a decent defintion, although I'd say 'good' rather then excel.

 

Yeah because good is enough for you. 5 pull-ups is enough, you don't want people to excel in anything.

You think negatively if you say most people can never achieve 100% of their potential. They COULD, they CAN, but they WON'T, it's not the samething. Only those like you, who think everything is impossible and nothing is possible, will never do what they're able to do. Stop thinking about what you do and think about what you can do, break those limits.

If FallenHorse say the superfit people he knows can only do 15 pull-ups... how does he defines what "superfit" is? Then what is just "fit"? I define "superfit" as Bruce Lee. That's why it is possible to be "fit", but being superfit takes a lot more determination, time, will power, passion etc. It even must become an obsession, to set a goal that is sacred and nothing else matters in life except achieving that goal.

WobbyLifter, you wrote : "Being able to do one pull up is great for anyone so congrats on that."

Yes, and I congrat too. But I must add: don't be satisfied to easy too. Be proud for a minute then get over it and do better.

There's a difference between people who make 1 pull-up and the others who do 25 : some stop and are happy with it, ok fine, but others don't stop and continue. People who become #1, olympic athletes breaking world records are certainly not in the first category mentionned. I would still be able to do only 10 pull-ups if I was thinking like you. About 2 months ago I was at that number, I bought a chin-up bar to fix to my door. I almost never did pull-ups and chin-ups before in my life, just once or twice in trees or in a gym. So I did 10, at the end of the week I was at 15, and so on. No big deal, you just need to start somewhere.

I agree with everything VeganEssential says:

We can't define a fix standard of "fitness level" since everyone is different..

I agree that finding a person who can do 25 pull-ups in good form is an absolute rarity. I have watched hundreds of different people do chins/pull ups over the last 12+ years of training in various gyms, and I've never seen anyone, big or small, who did more than about 15-18 in a set. 25 is a VERY high number for the average person

I didn't know it was so rare. Maybe you're right. I would be interested to see some people post here their numbers and their progress for pull-ups, just to see if it's so rare. I guess I set my standards too high because I'm not proud of my 30 pull-ups max. But like I said, it's not a bad thing. I prefer to set higher goals then lower goals.

Some people are happy with living at 50% intensity, others 100%, and others only aim for 110%.

[Wobbly Lifter]

I'll make a good film just for you, for sure during this month, it's my comeback to resistance traning, just to prove you it can be done if you didn't know it yet, and maybe after this you'll change your mentality, you'll listen to what others have to say, you'll believe more in what is possible when we believe in it.

 

Good, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Yeah because good is enough for you. 5 pull-ups is enough, you don't want people to excel in anything.

You think negatively if you say most people can never achieve 100% of their potential. They COULD, they CAN, but they WON'T, it's not the samething. Only those like you, who think everything is impossible and nothing is possible, will never do what they're able to do. Stop thinking about what you do and think about what you can do, break those limits.

 

No, most people can't reach 100% of physical potential because it'd take 4 hours a day since your 5 years old to do so. Most people don't have the resources to do that and lead a normal life.

*snaky personal comments*

Good is not enough for me. I'm not against people excelling, I'm against others defining what excelling is. Don't assume what is motivation for me, or how hard I try. Yes I'm happy with 5 pull ups, I don't give a shit about pull ups. I'm not happy with my snatch, or clean and jerk. Every month I'm tying to do more then I could before. So basically screw off and don't make assumptions implying I don't try care about my training. I've gone to competitions and plan to go to more. Does this sound like someone who doesn't try. I won most improved lifter at the last one. But no all I think is a can't won't, everything is impossible.

 

It's more I don't want someone who is uneducated to come around see that you need to 25 pull ups to be fit, and lose motivation because well, lots of people work hard and can't do 25, and thier goals have nothing to do with pull ups.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Wobbly Lifter

[kailla]

When I'm cut down for a show, I can do pull ups. At my normal weight, it's just too much weight for me. Still working on it though.

[beforewisdom]

Nice to see you posting again!

[Im Your Man]

I'll make a good film just for you, for sure during this month, it's my comeback to resistance traning, just to prove you it can be done if you didn't know it yet, and maybe after this you'll change your mentality, you'll listen to what others have to say, you'll believe more in what is possible when we believe in it.

 

Good, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Yeah because good is enough for you. 5 pull-ups is enough, you don't want people to excel in anything.

You think negatively if you say most people can never achieve 100% of their potential. They COULD, they CAN, but they WON'T, it's not the samething. Only those like you, who think everything is impossible and nothing is possible, will never do what they're able to do. Stop thinking about what you do and think about what you can do, break those limits.

 

No, most people can't reach 100% of physical potential because it'd take 4 hours a day since your 5 years old to do so. Most people don't have the resources to do that and lead a normal life.

*snaky personal comments*

Good is not enough for me. I'm not against people excelling, I'm against others defining what excelling is. Don't assume what is motivation for me, or how hard I try. Yes I'm happy with 5 pull ups, I don't give a shit about pull ups. I'm not happy with my snatch, or clean and jerk. Every month I'm tying to do more then I could before. So basically screw off and don't make assumptions implying I don't try care about my training. I've gone to competitions and plan to go to more. Does this sound like someone who doesn't try. I won most improved lifter at the last one. But no all I think is a can't won't, everything is impossible.

 

It's more I don't want someone who is uneducated to come around see that you need to 25 pull ups to be fit, and lose motivation because well, lots of people work hard and can't do 25, and thier goals have nothing to do with pull ups.

 

"So basically screw off "... hmm, I hope you're not gonna say you're still relaxed. To me, you seem more like someone who just had mad cow for dinner than someone perfectly calm.

I know since a long time ago that you are competiting. Nice to know that you find that "good is not enough" for you.It's just that what you were saying in your previous post didn't reflect that. Like Jet Li said about doing your best, "best is enough".

That being said, I don't care about pull-ups either, and any exercise in particular.

[Wobbly Lifter]

No, I'm not relaxed when someone tells me I don't care about my training.

 

"Nice to know that you find that "good is not enough" for you.It's just that what you were saying in your previous post didn't reflect that."

 

Before I was talking about being fit. I'm already fit, I've been fit my whole life. Excelling in a sport is a lot different then fitness.

Besides the standards we set for our selfs can be as high as we want. The standards we hold others to need to to be reasonable. The standards of fitness you suggested seemed anything but reasonable to me.

[thendanisays]

doing unassisted pullups is my goal. i did 4 sets of 3 assisted pullups the other day with my friend holding my feet....someday....

 

 

I'm your man- i agree with what youre saying that you should keep pushing yourself and never get too comfortable with your abilities, because that leads to physical stagnation. but i also understand what Wobbly Lifter is trying to say that to set such a high bar (no pun intended with the pullups here ) for "fitness" may lead those less fit to just feel inadequate and as though being truely fit is just unattainable for them.

 

 

i think you guys should just agree to disagree here, as you both make very valid points.

[sophierhymes]

I actually bet my trainer in March that I could do 5 pull ups by May 15. If I lost, I would have to wear my weight lifting gloves for an entire 24 hours. If he lost...well nothing...I guess it was a one-sided bet but it doesn't matter because I won!! I still can't break through the "5 pull up" mark though...I do assisted pull ups when I work back, but I think I need to get back to the real thing. Maybe my next goal should be 8 pull ups.

[Lena01]

I can do assisted pull ups! *sigh of relief* I do 4 sets of 10 with a chair below me but I can't do this

It's a goal now for when I come back from my summer at home. 5 real non-assisted pull ups. I hope I have time lol

[DaN]

thendanisays wrote:

 

to set such a high bar (no pun intended with the pullups here )

 

Dani I love the cheesy pun

 

[Mindi]

I can do 3 pull-ups. I don't do them on a regular basis so I was surprised when I cranked the 3 out. All those bent over rows must be paying off.

[DaN]

Go Mindi!

 

I want 4 out of you next time!

 

[Im Your Man]

I don't wanna start any war again but just a few small details that bugs me, nothing personal.

 

(...) most people can't reach 100% of physical potential because it'd take 4 hours a day since your 5 years old to do so. Most people don't have the resources to do that and lead a normal life.

 

Everybody has the choice, everybody can do whatever they want, may it be quit their job, wife, kids, and suddenly leave town and take the airplane to Thailand to train 4 hours/day on the beach to become 100% physically efficient. Of course all this seems unrealistic in our modern world, but it is still possible.

This being said, there's absolutly nothing wrong with not being 100% fit. It all depends on the choices we make based on our interests. Not everybody is interested in sports and physical activity or getting fit or even excelling in anything. Some people are more into arts, for others it's mathematics, etc... Myself I become passionate about different things along time, in a period of my life my passion is painting, then photography, then cinema, etc. I'm not fit at all during those periods.

 

I agree that finding a person who can do 25 pull-ups in good form is an absolute rarity. I have watched hundreds of different people do chins/pull ups over the last 12+ years of training in various gyms, and I've never seen anyone, big or small, who did more than about 15-18 in a set. 25 is a VERY high number for the average person

 

I agree but when you use the word "average" it opens some new issues. What is "average"? If the majority of the people on the planet is sick, it lowers quite a bit the standards to poor levels of what we can define as average health and fitness. Thing is that there's a definition in the dictionnary for words like "fitness", "average", "normal", "beauty", but it can also mean whatever we want, regarding to each person's perception of life, personal tastes, etc. For someone flowers may be beautiful while someone else may prefer how a garbage look like.

[VeganEssentials]

I agree that finding a person who can do 25 pull-ups in good form is an absolute rarity. I have watched hundreds of different people do chins/pull ups over the last 12+ years of training in various gyms, and I've never seen anyone, big or small, who did more than about 15-18 in a set. 25 is a VERY high number for the average person

 

I agree but when you use the word "average" it opens some new issues. What is "average"? If the majority of the people on the planet is sick, it lowers quite a bit the standards to poor levels of what we can define as average health and fitness. Thing is that there's a definition in the dictionnary for words like "fitness", "average", "normal", "beauty", but it can also mean whatever we want, regarding to each person's perception of life, personal tastes, etc. For someone flowers may be beautiful while someone else may prefer how a garbage look like.

 

Well, you did use the word "fit" for who should be able to do 25 pull-ups, and since we can't put a solid definition on that, it's as debatable as the word "average"

 

I was referring to "average" in a sense of someone who works toward being fit, does a reasonable amount of weight training and aerobic work, and is someone who trains for the purpose of their own well-being rather than a competitive athlete (as well as not being one of those people you meet who are just genetic freaks who seem to be able to excel at training beyond what most people get.) So, I'm using the general basis for the types of people you'd see in most gyms, either those that are on their journey toward fitness or those that are quite fit already. Like I said, I have never been around anyone who could crank out a high number of pull-ups, except for a few kids I've met who can do them all day without breaking a sweat (which is a whole lot easier at 50 lbs. than 250 ) I'm not making a comparison with the word "average" to be compared to the lazy couch potato types or anything of that sort - I'm referring to average in the sense of the normal person who trains with a mission of getting in better shape. So, on that front, I still say that 25 is a very high number for most people to attain based on over a decade of gym-hopping and being exposed to a lot of people who train hard yet don't seem to be able to knock out so many pull-ups.

 

Again, the word "fit" is open to so much interpretation that we could easily go off on a new thread to discuss that one alone

[Wobbly Lifter]

Everybody has the choice

 

That is not true. Look at the top athletes in sports, all have been training since childhood. Essentially it's your parents choice weather you'll reach 100% of your physical potential(in a particular area.) Well it's your parents choice if they have the resources, not everyone is so lucky. If you haven't been training since childhood you'll never be as good as you 'could' be. Besides such a pedantic point, although maybe you could pick up and leave, and devote your life to training, most people have responsibilities and commitments to their families and communities that preclude such choices. To define fit in a way that would exclude people living a regular life seems to miss the point.

 

We're coming at this from very different angles, me as a communalist and you as an individualist. I want fit to be defined in a way that encourages more people to be happy and healthy. For me most people who play a sport regularly(2+ times a week) count as fit, not just top athletes. We don't need more top athletes to improve society, we need more 'average' people to be physically active. If we define fit in a way that makes it too hard, we'll only end up discouraging most.

Your definition is more a pursuit of personal excellence type. There's loads of room for that of course, but it seems less important to me then pursuit of social good.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Wobbly Lifter

[Im Your Man]

Wobby, Forget about fitness and the definition of it. I was only talking about freedom. And yes we do have always the choice, even if there would be a God or if you believe in fate, etc. It doesn't matter which family you come from, some are born poor and got nothing then they become millionaires. Olympic athletes are not born with medals around their neck, they made decisions, choices, efforts. Yes it's true some are born under a good star with their parents paying for University and buying them a car, etc, this makes kids that are not able to take any decisions and choices by themselves and when they face responsabilities that they're not able to accomplish they'll react in a bad way.

Mariage/wedding, kids, career, etc. Some may say everything is just illusion. Some invent themselves obligations and stick to this life even if they're unhappy because they think there's no other choice and that they can't leave their wife and kids and job. And then one day after 10 years of such self treatment they shoot a bullet in their head or go out with a gun and kill 20 people. Instead of just follow their instinct at each moment of their life and do what they feel like in the present.

Perhaps "most people have responsibilities and commitments to their families and communities that preclude such choices", but ME: I don't owe nothing to anybody and nobody owe me something. I must admit if I get a child it may be an obstacle to just leave anywhere, but nothing is wrong with leaving a few weeks or months and then come back, or bring the child for a trip. Majority is 18 years old in Canada, in the US it's 21 years old ? This is all fictionous and designed by bureaucrats. A kid become an adult pretty young and don't need his parents after 12 years old of age, just any other adult can take care of him for a few more years if necessary, like grand-parents and this won't cause any big psychological issues for the future life of the kid.

Anyway, like you said : "We're coming at this from very different angles, me as a communalist and you as an individualist." Perhaps also left wing/right wing, conservative/progressist-anarchist-revolutionist, capitalist/socialist-communist, redneck/hippie , pro-war/pacifist, bourgeois/peasant ??? Lol I'm exagerating but I mean: we will probably never agree on anything and it doesn't matter

 

Meditation 41

Superior Man is not afraid to walk alone

If he must renounce to society,

it does not matter

[Wobbly Lifter]

Perhaps also left wing/right wing, conservative/progressist-anarchist-revolutionist, capitalist/socialist-communist, redneck/hippie , pro-war/pacifist, bourgeois/peasant ???

 

oh? and which side of the dichotomies do I fall?

[DaN]

Meditation 41

Superior Man is not afraid to walk alone

If he must renounce to society,

it does not matter

 

Very true Mr Man

 

[Im Your Man]

Perhaps also left wing/right wing, conservative/progressist-anarchist-revolutionist, capitalist/socialist-communist, redneck/hippie , pro-war/pacifist, bourgeois/peasant ???

 

oh? and which side of the dichotomies do I fall?

 

I let you choose, you know it better than me

[HCPinGviini]

On topic again.

 

I can't do a single pull-up nor even a chin-up without some help. So now I'm trying to make a difference there and I've practiced doing chin-ups in a near-by park, where's a nice bar for this.

 

I've been there like three times by now, and I've already had some progress. At first it didn't work at all. My arms weren't strong enough to pull my chin all the way up or keeping me hanging on feet above the ground. I kept on falling back.

 

Second time was little better. I wasn't falling that fast and I managed to get a better grip for the downward motion and I managed to control it a little better.

 

Third time I managed to control the downward motion altogether and as I practiced the chin ups with a lower bar (*) I managed to find my lats and I also managed to do some pull-ups with the same method. And it felt awesome.

 

And today I may have a chance to try assisted chin-ups, since I'm going to the gym with a partner (who's probably willing/able to help me )

 

* My feet on the ground holding the part of my weight I wasn't able to lift - but passively, didn't use them (that much) to pull myself up... hard to explain.

[ctfactor]

On topic again.

 

I can't do a single pull-up nor even a chin-up without some help. So now I'm trying to make a difference there and I've practiced doing chin-ups in a near-by park, where's a nice bar for this.

 

I've been there like three times by now, and I've already had some progress. At first it didn't work at all. My arms weren't strong enough to pull my chin all the way up or keeping me hanging on feet above the ground. I kept on falling back.

 

Second time was little better. I wasn't falling that fast and I managed to get a better grip for the downward motion and I managed to control it a little better.

 

Third time I managed to control the downward motion altogether and as I practiced the chin ups with a lower bar (*) I managed to find my lats and I also managed to do some pull-ups with the same method. And it felt awesome.

 

And today I may have a chance to try assisted chin-ups, since I'm going to the gym with a partner (who's probably willing/able to help me )

 

* My feet on the ground holding the part of my weight I wasn't able to lift - but passively, didn't use them (that much) to pull myself up... hard to explain.

 

Good for you! Keep with it. Pull-ups are the most difficult upper body exercise there is. Never worry about a specific number (like what has been discussed here). As long as you make progress, that is all that matters. Ten or so years ago, I could do just one, and I hated it. Now I can do them with one arm and it is my favorite exercise.

 

Ever try inverted rows? It's a good modification (simulation) that you can do by yourself. You can progressively change the angle over time.

[DaN]

ctfactor wrote:

 

As long as you make progress, that is all that matters

 

That is absolutely true.Its never positive when you invent a magic number or weight or compare with what others can do.Its all about making your progress, thats all that counts.