Nitrogen sparing effect of fats‏

[cubby2112]

Figured I would kick this section off and see if I can get it moving. Something nice and science-y.

 

I have been hearing echoes of the nitrogen (protein) sparing effect of healthy fats around the Dr. Fuhrman and I believe also the Dr. McDougall message boards. I have yet to try to get someone to give me a source of studies and such, but here is a little excerpt from a journal I wouldn't mind subscribing to:

 

Magdolna Barta Bedö1

(1) Institute of Nutrition, Budapest, Hungary

 

Summary 1.) Fats of vegetable sources influence the incorporation of dietary proteins more favourably than fats of animal sources.

2.) The protein sparing action of plant fats is twice as great as that of animal fats in case of a protein-free nutrition.

3.) The nitrogen content of liver and muscle is significantly higher in rats fed with oil than in lard-fed ones, independently of the presence or absence of protein in the consumed diet.

 

That is from the journal at this link:

Here

 

Too bad the third one's evidence comes from tests on rats rather than humans.

 

So it seems that being on a vegan diet, along with the alkalinity usually gained from it that spares the muscles at least of the elderly, possibly even the youth (future studies needed), also has the benefit of being composed solely of fats that have a nitrogen sparing effect.

 

This is coupled with another study I found which found a high fiber/low fat diet to raise testosterone levels higher than a high fat/low fiber one. Since vegan diets are generally higher in fiber and the fats contained within them tend to have a nitrogen sparing effect, that is a nice combination for muscle building and retention, especially with the added alkalinity. I need to find more studies on these subjects so I can better verify some findings.

 

So, a vegan diet with lots of leafy greens, beans, nuts and seeds will be high in calcium and highly alkaline, helping with bone and muscle retention, high in fiber (which has now been proven to not block the creation of testosterone, but possibly help it according to some studies) to help with muscle retention also and exclusively made of healthy fats which also aid muscle retention. Combined with all the anti-cancer and cardiovascular disease of such a diet, it is looking good to be vegan.

[veganmaster]

Figured I would kick this section off and see if I can get it moving. Something nice and science-y.

 

I have been hearing echoes of the nitrogen (protein) sparing effect of healthy fats around the Dr. Fuhrman and I believe also the Dr. McDougall message boards. I have yet to try to get someone to give me a source of studies and such, but here is a little excerpt from a journal I wouldn't mind subscribing to:

 

Magdolna Barta Bedö1

(1) Institute of Nutrition, Budapest, Hungary

 

Summary 1.) Fats of vegetable sources influence the incorporation of dietary proteins more favourably than fats of animal sources.

2.) The protein sparing action of plant fats is twice as great as that of animal fats in case of a protein-free nutrition.

3.) The nitrogen content of liver and muscle is significantly higher in rats fed with oil than in lard-fed ones, independently of the presence or absence of protein in the consumed diet.

 

That is from the journal at this link:

Here

 

Too bad the third one's evidence comes from tests on rats rather than humans.

 

So it seems that being on a vegan diet, along with the alkalinity usually gained from it that spares the muscles at least of the elderly, possibly even the youth (future studies needed), also has the benefit of being composed solely of fats that have a nitrogen sparing effect.

 

This is coupled with another study I found which found a high fiber/low fat diet to raise testosterone levels higher than a high fat/low fiber one. Since vegan diets are generally higher in fiber and the fats contained within them tend to have a nitrogen sparing effect, that is a nice combination for muscle building and retention, especially with the added alkalinity. I need to find more studies on these subjects so I can better verify some findings.

 

So, a vegan diet with lots of leafy greens, beans, nuts and seeds will be high in calcium and highly alkaline, helping with bone and muscle retention, high in fiber (which has now been proven to not block the creation of testosterone, but possibly help it according to some studies) to help with muscle retention also and exclusively made of healthy fats which also aid muscle retention. Combined with all the anti-cancer and cardiovascular disease of such a diet, it is looking good to be vegan.

 

Although we must keep in mind that rats are biologically different than people, that's very interesting. I'd love to read the whole study - I wish they would have at least a regular abstract so I can see some actual data. Still, keep in mind that the higher the percentage of carbohydrate, and thus the lower % of fat - the greater the nitrogen-sparing effect. Thus a 95% CHO 5% PRO diet maintained nitrogen balance at about 3000 kcal/d. The truth is a vegan diet is even more powerful than you suggest: the evidence shows that humans thrive even on monodiets of 1 plant (potato, wheat, corn, etc.) as long as energy balance is reached. The fact is osteoporosis, like basically all chronic disease, is cured by fueling the body with the biologically appropriate fuel. Millions of years of evolution have perfected our plant-processing digestive tracts. I guess I say that because of the popular idea that vegans need to eat a large variety to get all the essential nutrients. The evidence doesn't support this once you sweep aside the constellation of disease processes brought forth by eating animal foods. The evidence says to me that as long as humans get enough plant food to eat (kcal), enough to maintain normal functioning, then deficiency won't be a problem. In New Guinea many people thrive on diets of 95% sweet potato. One should recall that our evolutionary environment was probably one of feast and famine - so our bodies are built for fasting. In fact I'm fasting (cutting) right now, it's almost 4.pm. & now I'm going to eat (very low fat of course). Health problems come when people don't recognize our herbivorous natures. I'm very well read in antioxidants/herbs/supplements science and have spent a lot of money of pills, like a lot of vegans. But as I've learned and evolved, I've gained confidence and now I take no supplements, eat a diet based on rice, beans, potatoes, wheat with no fruit and a few vegetables. I haven't noticed any decline in my strong immune system, even while I overfeed on refined maltodextrin & soy protein. The hysteria over chronic disease hides the fact that when fed appropriately, the human body is a tough son-of-a-bitch and doesn't really need fancy antioxidants and pills to last 100 years.

 

Of course I'm agreeing with you in spades - and the science is there too. Too bad no one knows it, lol.

[cubby2112]

I was reading a study cited somewhere on the drmcdougall.com message boards about the diets of Okinawans pre-westernization (which is the diet that has allowed them to have so many centenarians) and it was composed of something like 70% sweet potato, most of the rest of the calories were non-starchy vegetables if I recall correctly.

 

I am getting to the point where the only things I really worry about are getting some omega 3s, b-12 and vitamin D (which I probably shouldn't worry about here over the summer, but we have a long, cold, sunless winters here).

[veganmaster]

I was reading a study cited somewhere on the drmcdougall.com message boards about the diets of Okinawans pre-westernization (which is the diet that has allowed them to have so many centenarians) and it was composed of something like 70% sweet potato, most of the rest of the calories were non-starchy vegetables if I recall correctly.

 

I am getting to the point where the only things I really worry about are getting some omega 3s, b-12 and vitamin D (which I probably shouldn't worry about here over the summer, but we have a long, cold, sunless winters here).

 

Yes, read John Robbins "Healthy at 100" to see the power of plant nutrition + daily exercise. The people of Okinawa, Abkhasia, Vilcambia & Hunza are the longest lived people, as long as they maintain their vegan or near vegan diets (+exercise of course). At one point Robbins describes how one of the saddest part of the lives of very old Okinawans is attending the funeral of their grandchildren and great grandchildren whose animal food heavy diets open up the usual pandora's box of chronic diseases (artery disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.).

 

The human need for essential fats is so small that eating potatoes alone satisfies needs. Here's a McDougall article on oils which includes discussion of essential fats.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm

Despite, or because of, my extensive research on supplements, combined with my continual education reading nutritional studies, I now agree with McDougall that healthy people don't need any supplements by definition. B-12 is naturally present in fresh plant foods, but sterilization kills the bacteria. Still, the need is microscopic, the body's reserves are huge if you used to eat meat, and even if you turned out to be the 1-in-a-million case of pernicious anemia, early reversal is no problem. Generally McDougall is overzealous on the "dangers" of supplements, IMO, but he is absolutely right when he steers people away from pills and towards a no-oil, low fat vegan diet.

Certainly getting some sunshine regularly is needed for Vitamin D. I'm not really anti-supplements, as popping a multi occasionally can alleviate worries about B12 & D (I've got lots of pure Vitamin C, for example, but I never seem to need it).

But one must realize that the marketing machines have products to sell, and most of the research is not only weak correlational evidence, but even direct intervention studies use people eating the biologically inappropriate SAD diet - so the results aren't likely to be relevant to vegans. In other words, the studies are designed to showcase some minor benefit of the supplement, when the actual effect is laughable when compared to the power of controlling what you put in your mouth! Our #1 interaction with the environment is food. Large quantities. Eventually one realizes that even megadoses of powerful antioxidants like Vitamin C, grapeseed extract, green tea extract, multivitamins/minerals have no where near the positive effect of human health as diet. Health comes not from pills, but from removing the source of the constellation of waste products that cause chronic illness: animal foods & oils.

 

I harp on the big picture because things get so distorted via marketing and propaganda - you'd think thousands of vegans are dying from deficiency diseases, when the truth is you are more likely to be banged by a leprechaun on your lotto winnings (while animal food eaters are indeed dropping like flies). Essential fatty acid deficiency simply does not exist in real people eating enough real plant food - just to study it scientists have to use artificial diets.

So the fountatin of youth has always been here:

1) eat enough plant (not animal) foods to satisfy minimal needs

2) perform regular stretching and intense exercise

 

I think a lot of the effort put into worrying about pills would be far better spent improving the diet, for example for vegans eliminating oils and refined sugars. To be clear, I'm not trying to discourage research on micro or macronutrients, or antioxidants, but the more you understand about nutrition the more you realize how myopic is the mindset of most scientists and their "risk factors" and percentages. So for example you get Omega-3 fats being recommended to "treat" diseases that are already proven to be 100% reversible via removing the cause, all because of a tiny statistical benefit! You get people and organizations like http://www.lef.org whose members take massive amounts of supplements in an attempt to reverse damage from putting the wrong fuel in the human body. All those pills, all that effort, may indeed slow the accumulation of damage, but they are still incubating disease with every bite of meat and dairy!

 

For example my GFs mom is obese and has multiple sclerosis, an autoimmune disease caused by high animal food and high fat intake. I've given her more than enough information to understand this, and to understand that a 100% very low fat vegan diet is ESSENTIAL to treating autoimmune diseases, especially MS (see the work of MS pioneer Roy Swank (who noticed the wartime drop in MS cases and symptoms and documented that diet is the answer). She is disabled from her obesity and disease, yet she's taking prescription drugs and supplements. Of course they have very little effect - and all the effort searching for a miracle cure that allows herbivores to magically become carnivores is so tragic! I will never understand why people choose suffering and disability over health and mobility, all for the sake of convenience and habit. The truth is 9 out of 10 people are sheeple, forever condemned to follow mainstream habits, for good or bad.

[DV]

Great topic.

 

While I agree with everything said on this thread, I would like to point out that there is a problem with essential fatty acids in the american diet and some vegan diets. The problem may not be one of lack of essential fatty acids but rather an imbalance of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids. Because of the types of foods available to us, it's easy to ingest too many omega 6 fatty acids - which compete with omega 3 fatty acids for the same enzyme responsible for their conversion to the long chain FAs. I think it's important to pay attention to the foods that are available to us (rather than the foods available and grown in another country) and use whatever nutritional knowledge we've accumulated to get the optimal nutrition from our current food supply.

 

As for supplementation with vit B12 - just do it. We've manipulated our food industry to the point where we need to supplement with vit B12 if we eat a plant-based diet. Unless you have your blood drawn and B12 levels checked yearly, supplement rather than waiting until you have a problem (which can be irreversible in some cases).

 

For those who didn't see the earlier thread posted by BeforeWisdom, here is a link to an excellent talk by Michael Greger, MD on the subject of vegans and the misconception that our diets are always exceptional.

[beforewisdom]

While I agree with everything said on this thread, I would like to point out that there is a problem with essential fatty acids in the American diet and some vegan diets. The problem may not be one of lack of essential fatty acids but rather an imbalance of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids. Because of the types of foods available to us, it's easy to ingest too many omega 6 fatty acids - which compete with omega 3 fatty acids for the same enzyme responsible for their conversion to the long chain FAs.

 

If people don't like analyzing the content of their food following these rules will reduce the omega 6 overloads in their diet:

 

1. Avoid/minimize chips ( "crisps" as the British call it ), fried foods, and commercial baked goods.

 

2. Avoid/minimize cooking in oil.

 

3. Watch/minimize your fat intake

[veganmaster]

Great topic.

 

While I agree with everything said on this thread, I would like to point out that there is a problem with essential fatty acids in the american diet and some vegan diets. The problem may not be one of lack of essential fatty acids but rather an imbalance of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids. Because of the types of foods available to us, it's easy to ingest too many omega 6 fatty acids - which compete with omega 3 fatty acids for the same enzyme responsible for their conversion to the long chain FAs.

 

IMO, on a truly low-fat vegan diet worrying about the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids is waste of time - our essential fat requirment is a mere .5-2% of kcal, please read the McDougall article above and check the references. The supposed anti-disease benefits do not exist for low-fat vegans, because they don't eat the main food that causes disease in the first place - so there is no first cause to ameliorate. Many studies show people living in excellent health on very limited diets, consisting on single sources of protein (potatoes/wheat,etc.) & billions of rural people around the world eat vegan or near-vegan diets without having to calculate the ratio of omega-3 versus omega-6 fats. I don't see any scientific evidence at all suggesting any additional health benefit to supplementing essential fat to a low fat vegan diet - eat real plant food and needs are easily met. Even for those on the SAD diet - worrying about fatty acid ratios is crazy because the expected benefit is extremely small compared to minimizing animal food intake & ALL oils.

 

Here are relevant some excerpts from that article:

 

Omega-3 and omega-6 oils suppress the immune system, reducing inflammation. As medications they have been tried in autoimmune conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, lupus erythematosus, multiple sclerosis, eczema, and psoriasis.4 Other disorders, such as migraine headaches, Alzheimer’s disease, and PMS have also been treated. The reports of benefits are variable and often questionable; as a result, their use has not been well accepted in most medical practices...

 

Essential Fat Deficiency Is Essentially Unknown

 

In our bodies these plant-derived, essential fats are used for many purposes including the formation of all cellular membranes, and the synthesis of powerful hormones, known as eicosanoids (prostaglandins, leukotrienes, and thromboxanes). Our requirement is very tiny, and even the most basic diets provide sufficient linoleic acid to meet our requirement, which is estimated to be 1–2% of dietary energy.1 Therefore, in practical terms, a condition of “essential fatty acid deficiency” is essentially unknown in free-living populations...*

 

*Some people talk about a “relative deficiency” of essential fats created by a large intake of saturated animal fats, synthetic trans fats (as found in margarine and shortenings), and/or omega-6 fats compared to their intake of omega-3 fats, and they believe many of our common chronic diseases are the result of this imbalance.1 This is quite different from true essential fatty acid deficiency which would result in: loss of hair, scaly dermatitis, capillary fragility, poor wound healing, increased susceptibility to infection, fatty liver, and growth retardation in infants and children.1

 

Omega-3 and omega-6 oils thin the blood, which make a person more susceptible to bleeding.7,8 This side effect from taking essential oils to prevent a heart attack could become fatal after an automobile accident or if an artery in the brain were to rupture, such as occurs in a hemorrhagic stroke.

 

Eliminating all processed fat from the vegan diet is far more important than worrying about ratios of essential fats, which is a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Beforewisdom's 3 recommendations to reduce processed fats is excellent advice, but not because it "balances" the ratio of essential fats - it is good advice because the scientific evidence shows that the ideal diet for humans is low-fat, whole food vegan. Adding any oil to the diet in the hopes of a net health benefit is scientifically dubious, IMO, and replacing the oil kcal with whole plant food is a much better method. So eating flax seeds as part of a low-fat vegan diet, that's healthy. But eating refined oils is simply not healthy - the body is beautifully designed to perfectly process whole foods, not concentrated macro/micronutrients. To be fair, oils appear are no match for the animal foods when it comes to causing disease, but they cannot be eaten in large amounts without consequences.

 

one last excerpt from:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm

Do Vegetable Oils Really Prevent Heart Disease?

 

Common knowledge is vegetable oils are protective against heart disease, but there is evidence that questions the real life benefits:

 

Serial angiograms of people’s heart arteries show that all three types of fat—saturated (animal) fat, monounsaturated (olive oil), and polyunsaturated (omega-3 and -6 oils)—were associated with significant increases in new atherosclerotic lesions over one year of study.9 Only by decreasing the entire fat intake, including poly- and monounsaturated-oils, did the lesions stop growing.

 

Dietary polyunsaturated oils, both the omega-3 and omega-6 types, are incorporated into human atherosclerotic plaques; thereby promoting damage to the arteries and the progression of atherosclerosis.10

 

One of the most important clotting factors predicting the risk of a heart attack is an elevated factor VII. All five fats tested—rapeseed oil (canola), olive oil, sunflower oil, palm oil, and butter—showed similar increases in triglycerides and clotting factor VII.12 Most likely, the heart benefits of a Mediterranean diet are due to it being a nearly vegetarian diet. The Mediterranean diet is a good diet in spite of the olive oil.13

[cubby2112]

I am so split between what Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. McDougall and some other sources say. Both Furhman and McDougall seem to be able to show tons of legitimate studies supporting their diets and have plenty of results from patients they have treated. All I can tell for sure is that a whole foods vegan diet loaded with veggies is the most healthful diet you can manage to eat.

[veganmaster]

I am so split between what Dr. Fuhrman, Dr. McDougall and some other sources say. Both Furhman and McDougall seem to be able to show tons of legitimate studies supporting their diets and have plenty of results from patients they have treated.

 

Fuhrman and most other vegan experts like www.pcrm.org tend to take more conservative, politically correct positions that accept the mainsteam idea that a "balanced diet" requires careful thought and combining of plant foods in order to be healthy. The big picture evidence does not support this need at all. Instead it shows that the robust design of the body can not only survive but thrive on potatoes alone. Overnutrition from animal foods and oil are the real culprits of disease, not deficiency. I have always found McDougall to be brutally honest about the evidence. Just look at his recent article about Tim Russert, who recently died of animal food intake (artery disease) - he is quite willing to stir things up to get people to look at the scientific evidence, because he sees the media completely ignoring the truth about artery disease.

All I can tell for sure is that a whole foods vegan diet loaded with veggies is the most healthful diet you can manage to eat.

Yep, that's certainly reflected in the science. I think the evidence is very strong that oils should be minimized too - especially for anyone interested in increasing muscle and not fat stores!

[Fallen_Horse]

For example my GFs mom is obese and has multiple sclerosis, an autoimmune disease caused by high animal food and high fat intake. I've given her more than enough information to understand this, and to understand that a 100% very low fat vegan diet is ESSENTIAL to treating autoimmune diseases, especially MS (see the work of MS pioneer Roy Swank (who noticed the wartime drop in MS cases and symptoms and documented that diet is the answer). She is disabled from her obesity and disease, yet she's taking prescription drugs and supplements. Of course they have very little effect - and all the effort searching for a miracle cure that allows herbivores to magically become carnivores is so tragic! I will never understand why people choose suffering and disability over health and mobility, all for the sake of convenience and habit. The truth is 9 out of 10 people are sheeple, forever condemned to follow mainstream habits, for good or bad.

 

I agree entirely with this.

 

 

 

However, saying the human body can thrive on potatoes alone is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

[DV]

Great topic.

 

While I agree with everything said on this thread, I would like to point out that there is a problem with essential fatty acids in the american diet and some vegan diets. The problem may not be one of lack of essential fatty acids but rather an imbalance of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids. Because of the types of foods available to us, it's easy to ingest too many omega 6 fatty acids - which compete with omega 3 fatty acids for the same enzyme responsible for their conversion to the long chain FAs.

 

IMO, on a truly low-fat vegan diet worrying about the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids is waste of time - our essential fat requirment is a mere .5-2% of kcal, please read the McDougall article above and check the references. The supposed anti-disease benefits do not exist for low-fat vegans, because they don't eat the main food that causes disease in the first place - so there is no first cause to ameliorate. Many studies show people living in excellent health on very limited diets, consisting on single sources of protein (potatoes/wheat,etc.) & billions of rural people around the world eat vegan or near-vegan diets without having to calculate the ratio of omega-3 versus omega-6 fats. I don't see any scientific evidence at all suggesting any additional health benefit to supplementing essential fat to a low fat vegan diet - eat real plant food and needs are easily met. Even for those on the SAD diet - worrying about fatty acid ratios is crazy because the expected benefit is extremely small compared to minimizing animal food intake & ALL oils.

 

Here are relevant some excerpts from that article:

 

Omega-3 and omega-6 oils suppress the immune system, reducing inflammation. As medications they have been tried in autoimmune conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, lupus erythematosus, multiple sclerosis, eczema, and psoriasis.4 Other disorders, such as migraine headaches, Alzheimer’s disease, and PMS have also been treated. The reports of benefits are variable and often questionable; as a result, their use has not been well accepted in most medical practices...

 

Essential Fat Deficiency Is Essentially Unknown

 

In our bodies these plant-derived, essential fats are used for many purposes including the formation of all cellular membranes, and the synthesis of powerful hormones, known as eicosanoids (prostaglandins, leukotrienes, and thromboxanes). Our requirement is very tiny, and even the most basic diets provide sufficient linoleic acid to meet our requirement, which is estimated to be 1–2% of dietary energy.1 Therefore, in practical terms, a condition of “essential fatty acid deficiency” is essentially unknown in free-living populations...*

 

*Some people talk about a “relative deficiency” of essential fats created by a large intake of saturated animal fats, synthetic trans fats (as found in margarine and shortenings), and/or omega-6 fats compared to their intake of omega-3 fats, and they believe many of our common chronic diseases are the result of this imbalance.1 This is quite different from true essential fatty acid deficiency which would result in: loss of hair, scaly dermatitis, capillary fragility, poor wound healing, increased susceptibility to infection, fatty liver, and growth retardation in infants and children.1

 

Omega-3 and omega-6 oils thin the blood, which make a person more susceptible to bleeding.7,8 This side effect from taking essential oils to prevent a heart attack could become fatal after an automobile accident or if an artery in the brain were to rupture, such as occurs in a hemorrhagic stroke.

 

Eliminating all processed fat from the vegan diet is far more important than worrying about ratios of essential fats, which is a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Beforewisdom's 3 recommendations to reduce processed fats is excellent advice, but not because it "balances" the ratio of essential fats - it is good advice because the scientific evidence shows that the ideal diet for humans is low-fat, whole food vegan. Adding any oil to the diet in the hopes of a net health benefit is scientifically dubious, IMO, and replacing the oil kcal with whole plant food is a much better method. So eating flax seeds as part of a low-fat vegan diet, that's healthy. But eating refined oils is simply not healthy - the body is beautifully designed to perfectly process whole foods, not concentrated macro/micronutrients. To be fair, oils appear are no match for the animal foods when it comes to causing disease, but they cannot be eaten in large amounts without consequences.

 

one last excerpt from:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm

Do Vegetable Oils Really Prevent Heart Disease?

 

Common knowledge is vegetable oils are protective against heart disease, but there is evidence that questions the real life benefits:

 

Serial angiograms of people’s heart arteries show that all three types of fat—saturated (animal) fat, monounsaturated (olive oil), and polyunsaturated (omega-3 and -6 oils)—were associated with significant increases in new atherosclerotic lesions over one year of study.9 Only by decreasing the entire fat intake, including poly- and monounsaturated-oils, did the lesions stop growing.

 

Dietary polyunsaturated oils, both the omega-3 and omega-6 types, are incorporated into human atherosclerotic plaques; thereby promoting damage to the arteries and the progression of atherosclerosis.10

 

One of the most important clotting factors predicting the risk of a heart attack is an elevated factor VII. All five fats tested—rapeseed oil (canola), olive oil, sunflower oil, palm oil, and butter—showed similar increases in triglycerides and clotting factor VII.12 Most likely, the heart benefits of a Mediterranean diet are due to it being a nearly vegetarian diet. The Mediterranean diet is a good diet in spite of the olive oil.13

 

I read his article and the reference list. Any of us could come up with a number of studies that would lead to the opposite findings. Just because he's an MD that most of us trust and respect, does not mean that he doesn't choose specifically those studies that support his theories. And I especially like how using animal studies is somehow okay when we're trying to make a point that we agree with but not if we disagree. It was also upsetting to see that he lumped the effects of omega 6 and 3 fatty acids together - they don't both decrease platelet aggregation. Omega 6 increases it (causing clotting) and omega 3 decreases it. It's upsetting to read something so very wrong in one of his articles and it made me question much of the remainder. I'm sure if I had the time or inclination to read all of his referenced studies, I could find much fault with many of the studies (which is not unusual as most studies are weak in some areas).

 

Keep in mind that it is almost impossible to get good results in any food or supplement study unless all subjects are of similar genetic backgrounds, same size/weight/lean body mass, age, sex, are eating exactly the same foods during the study, exercising in a similar fashion, etc. These studies don't exist with a large enough study size, for an adequate length of time.

 

Certainly, the plaques found in arteries will contain whatever fats you ingest - who ever said that plaques should only be made up of "bad" fats? How about the calcium found in plaques? Should we all cut down on our calcium intake? The problem is not the composition of the plaques but rather the reason that plaques are being formed in the first place. I don't know the criteria for the subjects in that study, but if they were already diseased and engaging in a lifestyle that promoted plaque formation then I wouldn't expect that one small change in the complex area of nutritional intake would make much difference.

 

There are too many variables to consider in the modern diet (and the tremendous mixing of genetics with such a large human population) to find "the best diet" for all of us. I doubt that most people, vegan or omni, will stick with a low fat, whole foods diet for most of their lives. We have too many occasions to eat in restaurants, friends' homes, holidays, etc. to expect that most of us will not take advantage of the convenience and taste of processed and prepared foods. For those very real people, we need healthier options - because refined oils, processed foods and vegan bakeries are not going away.

 

While I appreciate that a whole foods, low fat diet is very important for someone who is already showing signs of disease - I don't think it's realistic for the average young person who is of normal weight and feeling fine. Not in our modern societies. For that person, I believe that suggesting a healthy ratio of essential fatty acids is important - because that person is not necessarily going to eat a low fat diet. And, what is a low fat diet? What is the magical percentage of calories from fat? How about the person who eats 3500 calories per day compared to the person who only eats 1600 calories per day? Is the percentage really important or is the total gms of fat more important?

 

I'm not making these points and asking these questions to be argumentative. I'm trying to point out that we know so very little about nutrition and are living in a world where our access to foods (both healthy and unhealthy) is different than that of any humans before us. Few of us even know where our food was grown, how old it is, whether the soil it was grown in is alive or dead, from an industrial organic farm or a sustainable organic farm, etc. That we don't even know the "best" ratio of macronutrients for the average person points to the complete void of knowledge when it comes to micronutrients. The more we try to simplify things, the more complicated they seem to be.

[Troy]

veganmaster,

 

a couple questions...

 

Why do you have such a strong stance against refined vegetable oils, such as flax oil and not refined vegetable proteins and carbs? Possibly because of the short shelf life and rancidity issues of oils or just the fact that you are a strong believer in the low fat vegan diet? I am assuming the latter from your previous posts but the reason I ask is because your statements seem to contradict each other. You mention its much better to replace oils with plant based whole food but why not replace the soy protein powder and refined carbs (that you mention consuming) with plant based whole foods that are micronutrient rich?

 

Most people consume refined macros for convenience or simply to add calories as they are less bulky. I would assume you also do the latter, but for someone who believes a bit more fat is necessary in the diet (like me) what other factors are negative about consuming say, fresh flaxseed oil, with regards to a macro nutrient filler?

 

Lastly, would you mind sharing your typical daily diet?

 

Thanks, I enjoy reading your perspectives.

[offense74]

Fuhrman and most other vegan experts like http://www.pcrm.org tend to take more conservative, politically correct positions that accept the mainsteam idea that a "balanced diet" requires careful thought and combining of plant foods in order to be healthy. The big picture evidence does not support this need at all. Instead it shows that the robust design of the body can not only survive but thrive on potatoes alone. Overnutrition from animal foods and oil are the real culprits of disease, not deficiency. I have always found McDougall to be brutally honest about the evidence. Just look at his recent article about Tim Russert, who recently died of animal food intake (artery disease) - he is quite willing to stir things up to get people to look at the scientific evidence, because he sees the media completely ignoring the truth about artery disease.

That is not true. Joel Fuhrman says that you should eat whole plant foods. That's it. While McDougall bases his diet on starch, Fuhrman bases his on vegetables, fruits and legumes. I think you'll find more evidence for the Fuhrman diet than the McDougall one.

Neither of them thinks oils are healthy. They both think nuts and seeds are healthy but for some reason McDougall doesn't recommend eating them while Fuhrman does.

[cubby2112]

Some pro dietary fat stuff (you can download the entire study in PDF on the right side):

Nut consumption and weight

 

Which pointed me to this interesting study:

Peanuts and BMR

 

And this one, which finds that polyunsaturated fats cause a greater increase in BMR than saturated ones:

Polyunsaturated

 

This one does the same for monounsaturated:

Monounsaturated

 

Seeing as most studies which compare the effect of a high fat versus high carb diet on the type of weight gain use diets very high in saturated fats, this throws somewhat of a curve ball at the idea of gaining less fat on a low fat diet. Also, combined with the studies in earlier posts in this thread which show the nitrogen sparing effect of healthy fats (mono- and polyunsaturated), levels the playing field even further.

 

I have also heard that omega 3 acids in particular have a high thermic effect and satiety factor, which I am sure someone here knows of a study on (likely DV).

 

Let's get this started.

[DokieDoc]

My two cents: a (famous) study conducted in man.

 

 

Couldn't add my PDF file ("The extension PDF is not allowed").

 

 

Here are the abstract, the intro and the conclusion:

 

 

Am J C/in Nutr 1989;49:l 169-78. Printed in USA. © 1989 American Society for Clinical Nutrition 1 169

Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body

nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone

response in healthy male subjectsı3

Linda J McCargar, M Thomas Clandinin, Angelo N Bekastro, and Keith Walker

ABSTRACT The effect ofa high-carbohydrate and a high-fat diet on nitrogen retention,

substrate utilization, and serum hormone concentrations was assessed in six healthy male subjects.

Both diets were fed at a level estimated to provide maintenance and 75% maintenance

energy requirements. Urine and feces were collected and analyzed for N and energy content.

Anthropometric measurements; fasting and postprandial oxygen consumption; and serum 1evels

of glucose, triglycerides, and metabolic hormones were measured. The high-fat diet increased

N retention at both energy levels with significance reached at maintenance energy

intakes (p < 0.05). The high-fat diet resulted in less weight loss (p < 0.05) at low energy and a

consistently lower respiratory quotient (p < 0.05), indicative of increased fat oxidation. The

N sparing effect ofthe high-fat diet did not appear to be explained by hormone levels observed

but may be substrate mediated. Am J C/in Nutr l989;49: 1 169-78.

KEY WORDS Carbohydrate, fat, nitrogen balance, energy metabolism, hormones

Introduction

The quantity and source of the macronutnents in the

diet has a major influence on body protein deposition.

Diet protein intake appears to stimulate both protein

synthesis and degradation whereas intake of nonprotein

energy, while affecting nitrogen retention, appears to act

in a manner different from protein (1). These two factors,

protein and nonprotein energy, may have an additive

effect on protein turnover and may stimulate protein

synthesis by different mechanisms (1).

The nutrient composition ofthe nonprotein energy in

the diet may also influence N balance. It was originally

thought that carbohydrate alone exerts a specific action

on protein metabolism, which decreases urinary N

losses, whereas fat does not (2). Richardson et al (3)

found that in healthy male subjects fed a liquid diet the

most efficient N utilization was achieved when carbohydrate

was the major energy source, rather than fat. At

energy intakes > 50 kcal/kg body wt, the opposite was

observed. Some studies (4, 5) suggested that increased dietary

fat improves N balance in intravenously fed infants.

The literature is extensive and controversial on this

point. Much of this research has included hospitalized

patients presenting many disease-related variables that

may confound an effect of diet composition. Thus, no

clear mechanism has been established that links the composition

ofnonprotein energy to N retention.

In parenteral feeding studies altering the nonprotein

energy source can affect substrate utilization and energy

expenditure (4, 6-. Consequently, body composition

may also be influenced over the long term. In infants, fat

deposition increased and energy expenditure decreased

when fat was added to the diet compared with a glucose

and amino acid solution even when total gross energy

intake was kept constant (. It is conceivable that increased

N retention may occur as a consequence of protein

synthesis required to support new fat depots. If dietary

fat is utilized more efficiently such that total energy

expenditure is decreased, less protein may be oxidized

when fed a high-fat diet reducing urinary loss of nitrogenous

compounds. Thus, the proportion of macronutrients

in the diet may also play an important role in energy

balance because ofthe influence on energy expenditure.

The present study was designed to examine the effect

1 From the Nutrition and Metabolism Research Group and the Dcpartments

of Foods and Nutrition, Physical Education and Sports

Studies, and Laboratory Medicine, University of Alberta, Edmonton,

Alberta, Canada.

2 Supported by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research

Council ofCanada, the Alberta Heritage Foundation for Medical Research,

and Special Services Fund, University ofAlberta Hospital.

3 Address reprint requests to MT Clandinin, Room 533, Newton

Research Building, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G

2M8.

 

 

 

Manipulation ofdiet composition is not without metabolic

effects. In the present study decreasing the CHO:

fat and thereby increasing the fat content in the diet increased

N retention and fat oxidation and slightly decreased

energy expenditure. A shift to fat oxidation

means that more fatty acids are available in the blood.

Preferential use offat for energy decreases glucose oxidation

and may also decrease amino acid oxidation thereby

sparing N losses. The greater weight loss on the high-carbohydrate

diet at equal energy intakes (75% of maintenance)

suggests increased energy expenditure with carbohydrate

feeding. Increases in VO2 , thermogenic response

to a meal, and lipogenesis have also been

associated with high-carbohydrate diets and result in increased

energy expenditure. As such, a proportional increase

in amino acid oxidation and subsequent N excretion

may occur because of increased metabolism. When

calculated N gains or losses are small, these may persist

for long periods with minimal implications in terms of

body weight or function (42). Examination ofthis question

may require longer diet treatment periods to see

consistent effects on biochemical indices. It appears that

the components of energy metabolism, specifically the

direct effect of substrates, play an important role in

man’s N economy and should be addressed further.