In need of fat burn

[zinzen]

Does anyone out there have a tried and true way in your own training that got you real cut, I am so damn sick of not seeing the abs I work so hard for.

and the worst part is that I know all the physiology of using our energy proper, but sometimes I would love to hear stuff that actually worked for another person, not just a book version of what should work.

Any different things I can try would be appreciated.

Tom

[Richard]

Many people find it easier to burn fat by reducing the amount of calories and/or fat that they eat per day. That is how I lost most fat, when I reduced my intake of food.

[chrisjs]

Does anyone out there have a tried and true way in your own training that got you real cut, I am so damn sick of not seeing the abs I work so hard for.

and the worst part is that I know all the physiology of using our energy proper, but sometimes I would love to hear stuff that actually worked for another person, not just a book version of what should work.

Any different things I can try would be appreciated.

Tom

 

What have you tried so far and has anything showed you success? Eating less calories than you use is the overall idea, but everyone's body is different. Some people find low-fat works, others do better with low-sugar and maybe higher fat. HIIT cardio works well for some, but for others long slow cardio works...

[zinzen]

every single thing you said and then some, I guess what I am looking for is food plans others have followed, and has anyone ever expiremented with food scales.

the problem I am finding now is really finding portion size, and I have heard all the things like a protein size should be as big as your closed fist, ect.

I have been studying for a personal training license whie going to medical massage school which is also heavy into nutrition so I really SHOULD know all this, so it should work, but alas, still not cut up.

And come september 8th I have my 3rd shoulder surgery so all upper arm workouts fly out the window for 4 months, so I gotta get on the ball now with knowing what to do, of course cardio aint out, but its still going to blow.

[VeganEssentials]

Don't feel too bad - I'm a trainer and have been lifting for around 13 years and I'm JUST finally figuring out how to lose fat in a good way for myself. I've tried just about everything in the past, but for me, the main keys have been this -

 

1. Cut out sugar as much as humanly possible. I MIGHT drink some juice post-workout with my shake, but that's the only time. Other than that, NO sugar whatsoever.

 

2. Limit processed carbs to the greatest degree possible. I have had white rice maybe 2 times in the past month, whereas I used to have it just about every day. Same with pasta - had it once all month, but cut it out almost completely even though it usually was a staple.

 

3. Increase protein. I hadn't packed in protein for a few years, but dropping carbs and upping protein has done a lot for me. I've gone from around 100g non-training / 150-190g training days to around 175g non-training / 250g training days. Protein replaced a good portion of my carb intake.

 

4. Eat more often/smaller portions. This still troubles me sometimes since I used to eat 2 big meals and a few snacks, but now I'm doing about 4 small meals with 2 snacks in between, which has been good.

 

5. Fat intake went up a fair amount, as I've been eating more nuts lately to make sure I get enough calories (my appetite drops DRASTICALLY when I decrease portion size). Probably added 30-40g more of fat per day, which helps keep me full. Cashews are my #1 snack these days.

 

6. For lifting, I decreased rest time by about 25%, upped reps on most lifts to a higher number so some days I feel like I'm doing a weighted cardio workout since I get winded long before my muscles fatigue. I gain best on 1-5 reps/set, but for fat loss, I do far better anywhere between 15-100 reps per set (most sets are 15-25 reps, but every so often I get a wild streak and go marathon on whatever I'm doing for the day.) Strength hasn't gone down much even with steering clear of heavier sets, which surprised me.

 

7. Pay CLOSE attention to calories. I have a terribly slow metabolism, and even at around 275-285 lbs. and training hard, I can gain on about 3400+ per day, lose weight at anything below about 2700 cal./day. So, right now, I eat a bit lower at around 3000-3200 cal/day on training days, and around 2400-2600 on rest days (higher if I do cardio, lower calories if I'm lazy.)

 

I dropped about 20 lbs. initially by a semi-crash diet and lost a fair amount of strength, but since changing to the new program at the start of June, I've fine-tuned it to minimize muscle loss. So far, I've dropped 13 lbs. of almost pure fat in 5 weeks just by being 95% strict about all this. I go out for a few drinks about twice per week, cheat once or twice per week with some junk food if I'm on the road, but that's about it. Consistency is key more than anything - it's the people who want to "treat" themselves every other day for "being good on their diet" that tend to get the worst results, so just being on-point about doing what you need to do once you find a good plan is what I consider to be the biggest key to success.

 

Best of success with your program, whatever it might be!

[Richard]

Thanks for all that info big V man, that's great

[veganmaster]

Does anyone out there have a tried and true way in your own training that got you real cut, I am so damn sick of not seeing the abs I work so hard for.

and the worst part is that I know all the physiology of using our energy proper, but sometimes I would love to hear stuff that actually worked for another person, not just a book version of what should work.

Any different things I can try would be appreciated.

Tom

 

Yes, my method is a little different as I'm obsessed with metabolism science and body recomposition (I'm working on a blog, I'll post a link once I get the basics of my system written down). I'm steadily cutting right now, losing fat daily without torture! For background info, please read my other posts for the in-depth scientific reasons that support my methods.

 

#1. I fast from morning until 3 or 4 p.m. - this causes a net loss of about 4-5 grams of fat per hour.

#2. My dietary goal is extremely low fat, very high carb, because the research supports this as the best body recomposition method (due to protein-sparing effect of insulin & the fat-gaining effect of fat). I don't count kcal, but since my eating window is only 8 hours and also very low fat, I lose fat while maintaining muscle.

#3. Muscle work (my legs are sore from Hindu Squats: love 'em!)

 

In my experience, fasting is so much easier because catecholamines suppress appetite. If I ate the exact amount and type of food I eat daily, but didn't fast and spread it evenly as small snacks, it would be mentally a lot harder! I am pretty good at estimating kcal of portions, but I simply dislike it, so I've evolved to using fasting and fat minimization to guarantee daily net fat loss. Fasting, high carb/very low fat diet, and exercise all shift metabolism towards the goal of muscle maintenance and fat shedding. Using all three at once creates the ideal method for body recomposition - and it is no coincidence that this replicates our EEA (Environment of Evolutionary Adaptedness). Basically, all I'm doing is going WITH our herbivorous biology instead of against it (and that's the key secret to both health and recomposition). Certainly, counting kcal to guarantee a deficit works - but every bite of fat is a small step backward, as research has proven the inferiority of fat for recomposition. In other words replacing kcal energy from fat with isocaloric carbs, causes net protein deposition to be higher, and net fat gain lower. That's what the gold standard calorimetry studies show.

 

Oh, and for bulking I load up on fat-free maltodextrin + soy protein shakes, because liquid kcal are processed easiest (whereas liquid fat is the fastest way to gain fat).

 

To be clear, a net energy defict will reduce fat stores even on a high fat diet, but results can be significantly improved via adjusting macronutrients (I've cited many examples of this in the studies, the evidence will surprise you). I am not perfect, I eat a little more fat of some days than others - but by working with my metabolism I'm steadily moving towards my goals without much hassle. And that is exciting for me, as I've done many cycles of reading scientific studies and experimenting with diet and overfeeding. I feel I've marked the path, and now need only follow it towards success.

[zinzen]

Damn people you all rock, any more suggestions cause that was fun to read

[veganmaster]

Damn people you all rock, any more suggestions cause that was fun to read

Another relevant factor is the ratio of complex carbs to simple sugars in the diet. Research shows simple carbs to stimulate lipogenesis more than starches. But what really matters is Glycogen storage - studies show the average men could hold 700g of glycogen, while a swimmer had a maximum capacity of 1100g.* When you exceed your glycogen stores, that's when De Novo Lipogenesis really gets going (30% of the energy is lost in conversion though). CHO Overfeeding studies show that it can take several days to max out. And since (besides alcohol) CHO is on top of the oxidative hiearchy the body prefers to burn CHO 1st. Thus the steady release of energy from complex carbs is simply burned as it comes in. But simple sugars come more in bursts, perhaps enough to overcome short term energy needs and thus be shuttled into glycogen storage. I'll have posts about all these things on my blog, when I find the time.

 

*"Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man"

 

Alcohol is germane as well, as I intimated earlier it is prioritized over CHO, PRO, & FAT. Studies show that alcohol is similar to CHO, in that as soon as a large influx begins to be processed, it takes priority over all other fuels. But in the case of alcohol, the body does not store it directly, so 95+% of it will be immediately burned for fuel (a few % may be converted to a very small amount of fat). That is why, alcohol + FAT + simple sugar is a recipe for fat deposition - not only does fat act similarly as CHO, lowering FAT oxidation, alcohol has 7 kcal/g versus about 4 for CHO. Also, liquids are digested faster, since less work is required. And any large intake of a non-fat macronutrient leads to a significant reduction in fat burning. Fat is low man on the totem pole of oxidative hierarchy. It is the human fuel reserve - for example studies show that during initial fasting someone my size (170) will oxidize about:

4 g/h FAT, 1 g/h PRO, 5 g/h CHO

Studies show that 4-7 times as much FAT as PRO is oxidized during fasting, depending on your macronutrient stores. That's why cycles of fasting and refeeding via a MNP* diet seem to me to be ideal for comfortable optimum recomposition, at least when fat loss is the priority:

*http://veganmaster.blogspot.com/ [no posts yet]

Food for thought.

 

 

[DV]

VeganEssentials gave you a great response. The vast majority of bodybuilders currently competing have a very restricted carb diet while cutting. I don't agree that you need to restrict all carbs, but definitely simple carbs such as sugars and processed flours. Eating every 2.5-3 hours keeps your insulin levels relatively stable and maintains a good supply of circulating amino acids.

 

I've been able to drop body fat when eating primarily tofu, tempeh, seitan, leafy greens, flax oil and nuts. I throw in some other vegetables (whatever is in season) and generally stay away from grains. I find that I lose my appetite easily when eating low carbs, so it's important to make sure you are eating enough calories to maintain your lean mass.

 

A general rule of thumb is that any weekly weight loss over 1% of your total body weight will include loss of muscle - which you want to avoid.

 

Good luck!

[VeganEssentials]

Happy to be of service (and thanks to those who commented on my reply )

 

I fought it for years, but I'm definitely carb-sensitive to sugars and processed crap, even a little bit to grains as well, so after years of trying to figure out what's best for me to lose weight, I learned that getting rid of what my body struggles with processing efficiently is the way I have to go. Of course, not everyone is the same - some people can fare really well with high carb diets and still lose weight, but we won't talk about such lucky folk here

 

I don't agree that you need to restrict all carbs, but definitely simple carbs such as sugars and processed flours. Eating every 2.5-3 hours keeps your insulin levels relatively stable and maintains a good supply of circulating amino acids.

 

I should have stated that part more clearly. I don't think anyone ever gained fat from eating plenty of fresh veggies and reasonable fruit intake, so those to me are "free" foods that I don't really sweat too much. My veggie intake has fallen off a bit lately with the move to higher protein (and the fact that I can't get Legere's Balsamic Dill dressing, which makes me not want to eat salads as often as I used to ), but I'm still getting a decent amount of greens in daily.

 

I find that I lose my appetite easily when eating low carbs, so it's important to make sure you are eating enough calories to maintain your lean mass.

 

That's my biggest problem - with reduced carb intake and the near-elimination of processed stuff and sugars, I struggle on a lot of days to get enough calories. I can eat a mountain of junk food and sweets, but good food, my appetitie fades fast. Thank goodness for beer, which helps me make up those few hundred calories a couple of times per week when I don't eat enough (just kidding, though I have used the "going out for a few rounds" as the way to meet my goals once or twice even though it's a bad idea).

 

I think that we often tend to overly-complicate things like fat loss and muscle gain - I used to study such things so much that it made my head spin, and over time, I've found that nothing beats listening to your body, following basic tried-and-true common-sense approaches to each side of the spectrum, and being consistent about it. When I tried crazy complex programs and diets I never got the results I wanted (I still saw something, but never, ever anywhere near as well as programs claimed they could do), but in simplifying my training and diet I've managed to do the most good over the past few years.

 

Everyone is different, and very few people find what works best for them without having to experiment with numerous programs and diets, but for most of us, it'll take a handful of different approaches before we find what works best. Just keep at it consistently and you will hopefully find what is best for you in due time!

[xphilx]

what worked out for me:

 

1. HIIT (thanks to johan )

2. low carb diet

[VegannNY]

xphilx: just out of curiosity, what did you eat when going low-carb? (Back when I was an omni, I tried the Atkins diet with *great* success. Obviously, that's not going to work anymore, and I'm looking to find suitable substitutes...) Thanks!

 

--Janet (V n NYC)

[xphilx]

lots of tofu, vegetables, fruits, nuts, (vegan) yogurt and so on. simply all of that stuff in all kinds of their variations.