How do you defend your self against people who are closed?

[RAINRA]

I am going to jump into for the first time I went Vegan go see my family and extended family. I have heard a lot of good arguement points for veganism. ENVIRONMENT, HEALTH, ANIMALS RIGHTS, HUMAN RIGHTS ect...

When you face your family, what did you say that was convincing to them... when they ask things like this.

 

Such as arguements like well factory farms are needed to sustain all the people in the world if they choose to eat meat? You can't make choices for people and if they are going to eat meat conventional farming no longer works to feed millions of people. (Of course ignoring the environmental effects.)

 

My friends uncle is 90 he ate cheese his whole life he is just fine.

 

How do you go the right evidence and accurate sources? And if debated come up prepared every point?

[beforewisdom]

It is important to use facts from reputable sources with citations.

 

I give people a copy of the "The China Study". It is one of the largest population studies on nutrition in history. It was run by T. Colin Campbell, a very well respected scientist who isn't a vegan.

[medman]

If they don't understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and real science, then you'll never be able to get through to them on the health argument. Just because you know someone who drank and smoked and ate half a stick of butter every day yet lived to 95 doesn't mean that any of those things were a good idea or helped him reach that age! Same thing with the "I knew this one girl in high school who went vegetarian but her doctor made her eat meat again because she was so anemic" story. Congrats, you knew an anemic girl who didn't balance her diet properly. Go take a look at the recent studies showing the 100%+ increase in iron intake amongst patients prescribed a vegan diet as part of a prostate cancer study.

 

On the factory farming issue - yes, if you want to feed everyone in the world meat, factory farming is 'necessary'. So is clear-cutting old-growth rainforest if everyone in the world wants tree-based paper for their books. That kind of argument is ridiculous because you have to assume that meat, or paper-based books are essential items. If you're looking at feeding the world, consider how much less water (I believe it's 2000 times), less farming area (I believe it's about 50 times), and less pesticide/fertilizer (forget the figure) it takes to grow vegetable protein instead of extremely energy-inefficient meat. Same thing with paper - you can get several times as much paper pulp out of a hectare (or acre for you Americans ) of hemp than forest, and it grows back every year instead of every 40+ years (with the accompanying disruption of the forest ecosystem).

 

It's about changing the way we think. With the ever-increasing world population and environmental damage we're facing, it's obvious that we can't keep going like this. We need to change the way we think - meat, oil-based energy, tree-based paper, chemical fertilizers - all of these things have sensible, practical, and lower-impact alternatives. The "We can do whatever we want" attitude is what got us to this point.

[veganmaster]

Although the weight of the evidence is very heavily on your side, you face an uphill battle (see my other posts for lots of details). http://www.drmcdougall.com has plenty of well-referenced scientific articles for the science inclined, check out the 2005 United Nations report "Livestock's Long Shadow" which shows that livestock acount for significantly more anthropogenic Co2 equivalent emissions (something like 19% for livestock compared to 13% for ALL of world transportation!!). That is for the environmentalist. It's easy enough to find info about the vast ethical reasons too.

 

But ALWAYS remember that 99% of people will automatically rejects new ideas, regardless of the reality they represent - new memes are despised, and old comfortable memes (usually vulgar propaganda) are defended with vigor. Most people will not listen to the truth until THEY ARE READY. I have helped many people eat more plants/go vegan over my 12 years of veganism, mostly via my in-depth knowledge of nutrition. BUT not ONE of those people wasn't already slightly open to the idea. An uncurious mind is like a brick wall - "it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks."

Most people would rather suffer and die horribly from disease than face the frightening changes in their long-term habits - the fear of doing something bold and unpopular. The excuse is often "grandpa ate meat and smoked every day and lived to 90" - little do they know that grandpa likely ate way more whole plant food in his life than themselves. And grandpa likely never became obese. The human body is very tough, and can surive for a long time on a even a diet of mostly whiskey! Point out the people you know who didn't live to 90, but died at 50 from animal product consumption, like Jim Fixx, the founder of modern jogging. Like Tim Russert. Like thousands of people who die from artery disease in the US every single day.

 

The only way to slowly change the minds of the uncritical thinkers is to lead by example - eat a low-fat vegan diet + stretching and exercise and perhaps eventually they will notice that you stay trim and tone, almost never get sick, haven't gone to the doctor in years, require no prescription drugs, etc. - this is why this site is so important, it helps shatter the propaganda.

 

My GFs parents are obese and dying from various animal food/oil causes diseases, from Multiple Sclerosis to Diabetes to Artery and Lung Disease - I have educated her mother well enough to give her the knowledge to take control of her health - but she does nothing because her husband is totally unsupportive (well that's her excuse) - he's quite happy to be disabled, diseased and drugged up on pills - as long as he gets his meat! They are both disabled too - a direct result of their shitty lifestyle habits. I say this to highlight the power of ingrained habits - most people are sheeple, and do NOT know how to think for themselves. Even when they acknowledge the truth, they are so comfortable being sick and blaming "bad genes" that taking responsibility for their health is terrifying.

 

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

George Orwell

 

And it seems nothing is more personal than diet - it's like going up to a dog eating out of his food bowl - putting your hands near his mouth is dangerous. So get ready for rejection, but know the facts are squarely on your side, from all angles. We humans are herd animals, afterall - and following the group has been a successful evolutionary strategy in the past - but it is absolutely a recipe for failure in "modern" propagandized society - a topsy turvy world where feeding a biological herbivore solely plant food somehow seems crazy! Recognizing that evolutionary mismatch is the key to taking control of personal health - show me someone who reversed their chronic disease and I'll show you someone who has cultivated respect for our herbivorous human biology (whether they realize it or not). Good luck!

 

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030700pumeatinthehumandiet.htm

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl/dec/truth.htm

Edited July 18, 2008 by veganmaster

[beforewisdom]

If they don't understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and real science, then you'll never be able to get through to them on the health argument. Just because you know someone who drank and smoked and ate half a stick of butter every day yet lived to 95 doesn't mean that any of those things were a good idea or helped him reach that age! Same thing with the "I knew this one girl in high school who went vegetarian but her doctor made her eat meat again because she was so anemic" story. Congrats, you knew an anemic girl who didn't balance her diet properly. Go take a look at the recent studies showing the 100%+ increase in iron intake amongst patients prescribed a vegan diet as part of a prostate cancer study.

 

This is a good rejoinder. The lack of knowledge about the difference in value between anecdotal accounts versus clinical ( or even population study ) evidence keeps things like the Atkin's diet and some of the beliefs of the raw food community going.

 

All people know is "hey, I tried it and feel okay"

 

People just aren't taught this kind of critical thinking. Bringing it into a conversation with people who are not open minded is like trying to stop to teach an cashier arithmetic to get your change from a purchase.