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There is harm and exploitation in taking honey and milk. I don't see the harm in volunteering to give blood or to have a transfusion with blood that was donated willingly.

 

A human baby drinking its mother's milk has no exploitation, the mother is choosing to give it to the baby. I would say that's vegan. But by saying "a vegan doesn't consume anything from an animal" you'd be saying that this is not vegan. I think it's more complicated than that, and it is to do with suffering and exploitation. As I said, harvesting honey and milk does involve suffering and exploitation, and also important to note, you can't get consent from the animal. So consuming milk or honey, I would say is definitely not vegan. But when it's stuff donated from a human, you have 100% consent, I don't see the problem.

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There is harm and exploitation in taking honey and milk. I don't see the harm in volunteering to give blood or to have a transfusion with blood that was donated willingly.

 

A human baby drinking its mother's milk has no exploitation, the mother is choosing to give it to the baby. I would say that's vegan. But by saying "a vegan doesn't consume anything from an animal" you'd be saying that this is not vegan. I think it's more complicated than that, and it is to do with suffering and exploitation. As I said, harvesting honey and milk does involve suffering and exploitation, and also important to note, you can't get consent from the animal. So consuming milk or honey, I would say is definitely not vegan. But when it's stuff donated from a human, you have 100% consent, I don't see the problem.

Maybe there's no problem with donated blood from humains, but it's still not vegan. Like your example of human babies, there's no problem at all with that -- on the contrary that's how things should be done -- but human babies are not vegan. Just like a veal is not vegan but it's an herbivorous animal once it became adult. Veganism requires both conditions : no harm to animals and consuming no animal products even if no pain or exploitation is involved. We should not interfere in any way with animals, just like they ignore us and don't do us any bad or good. Everything that involves more than just curiosity, like just watching an animal, is an intervention from us in their life and it disturbs their tranquility and is an attempt to take something from them.
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To me, that's not what veganism is about. To me, veganism is just about avoiding interfering with animals, harming them and exploiting them. To me, it is nothing to do with abstaining from human donations or human breast milk. The point / goal of veganism is to reduce / prevent / stop suffering and exploitation. Feeding your kids breast milk has no impact on that whatsoever, literally no impact, and you are helping your kids by doing it, it's an entirely different thing. Veganism isn't an arbitrary set of rules, it has a purpose. Veganism is only good, it's not bad - it is designed to help animals and reduce suffering. Refusing to feed your child breast milk is a bad thing to do and is likely to increase suffering. If someone chose not to feed their kids breast milk to ensure that their kids were "vegan", they'd be making a big mistake ethically and logically

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To me, that's not what veganism is about. To me, veganism is just about avoiding interfering with animals, harming them and exploiting them. To me, it is nothing to do with abstaining from human donations or human breast milk.

 

I'm with Richard on this one. Otherwise, oral sex or even kissing would be "un-vegan".

 

As for bees "preferring to die free than live as slaves" - realize how much anthropomorphism there is in that statement. A bee has no concept of freedom. They don't even have a brain per se; their anterior central ganglion doesn't do much other than compute sensory and motor information. Consider the case of wildflower honey: the hives are intentionally placed near an overly abundant food source (the flowers), and the extra honey (due to the overabundance of gathered pollen) produced by the bees is collected. I'm not going to argue that honey isn't technically an animal product, because it's produced by an animal - the bee. But you really cannot compare a dairy cow to a honey bee in terms of brain function, living conditions or mechanism of food production (i.e. bees producing extra honey with no manipulation whatsoever vs. a dairy cow intentionally kept in a milk-producing state and being milked in far excess of what a calf would be drinking).

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Lol, ok not honey (but it's not vegan, and they have a brain, they're a complex society, almost as much as ants)... Maybe you misread or my English is poor; I'm for babies breastfeed, but I'm against bood donations. Breastfeeding is natural, all animals do it, but blood donations ain't natural, and it's not surprising only humans do it. Death is natural. I fell on a text today, I'll translate it in those words: Death is the best invention of Life. It leads to change. (...) Once you understand that you can die today or tomorrow, you see life differently. (...) Stay hungry. . But nowadays with modern medecine people live thinking they can be immortals. Perhaps if people would watch themselves each morning in the mirror thinking it's their last day, they would live in a different way.

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I can't resist (hey as long as we stay calm ) Medman, perhaps you're new here, but there was a controversial thread about the honey topic (maybe it's still locked, I don't know) viewtopic.php?p=127457#127457 ...We don't only take the "extra" honey, we take all the honey, and then feed bees with cheap GMO high fructose corn syrup. There's manipulations, we have absolute control over them. Read this for more info why honey is not vegan : http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

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If I didn't have the gut wrenching terror of Mad Cow Disease I'd probably eat Honey. But considering I usually go over the top in everything I do I figure the best way to protect myself from a scary disease like that is just to avoid any and all animal products/by-products or even let my food make contact with it.

 

But even though my reasonings are different from any other Vegan in the end I manage to lower the bad treatment of Animals by what I do. So even though the Animals are not on the top of my list they are helped as much as if I was a Vegan who put Animals over health.

 

I generally have gained a certain Anti-killing....Wait a minute. Why are we talking about the morality of Bee's, Honeu and insects in a topic about blood donations anyways?

 

BAAAAAACK on TOPIC

 

Blood. If I were to die I'd take someone elses. I'm not a Johobo's Witness.

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Blood. If I were to die I'd take someone elses. I'm not a Johobo's Witness.

Interesting point.

 

IYM: what if you unfortunately had an accident sometime and needed a transfusion, is there a way of getting over to the medics - like some card you'd carry on you - if you're unconscious or not coherent that you oppose transfusion on non-religious grounds?

 

Or would they go ahead and give you blood - against your wishes/ethics - as presumably they'd have no way of knowing your views on this?

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In the U.S., if you are in an accident and require blood transfusions then you will get them in an emergency situation - unless someone is with you who can somehow prove that you are a Jehovah's witness. In a life-saving, emergency situation there is little chance of getting sued for malpractice as there is an implied consent for life-saving measures and a slim chance that a family member or legal guardian will get to the ER before the patient. So yes, you would get blood (in the hospital as blood is not given be paramedics or EMTs en route).

 

As for blood transfusions being "unnatural" I disagree. Humans are natural beings with large cerebral cortexes. Using our brains to develop ways to enrich and prolong life for ourselves is a natural development of such intelligence. If human ingenuity is considered "unnatural" then what are humans? It's a slippery slope when we start defining concepts such as veganism and adjectives such as natural. There are many grey areas.

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You're right, if I need blood while I'm still young, I wouldn't want to die so young and I would accept that blood. EVENTHOUGH IT'S NOT VEGAN AT ALL (who tought about that?)... to die as a vegan or to live non-vegan, that is the question, LoL.

How is receiving a blood transfusion not vegan? Or was that just a joke?

No that's not a joke. I'm gonna let you think about it for a moment, try to find out why blood is not a plant, lol.

I know blood isn't a plant, but why does that matter? Veganism is not about avoiding anything that's not a plant. It's about avoiding animal products. In case the difference isn't clear, there are things in the world that are neither plant nor animal in origin. For example, rocks aren't plants, but vegans are free to use rocks and rock products.

 

Yes, I know that humans are animals and human blood is therefore technically an animal product. But, as others have said, no definition of veganism that I know of or that makes sense to me would consider human products given freely by the human in question to be non-vegan. If I go to the doctor and she wants a blood sample, so draws blood from me so that it can be tested, would you consider that non-vegan as well?

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I know that vegans eat not only plants but all varieties of foods in the vegetal kingdom. But you seemed not to be awared of that blood is from animals therefore not vegan, exccept if you begin to transform definitions of everything. What I'm saying is that drinking human blood or get a transfusion is cannibalism, it's not vegan, just like eating sausage which contain blood of pigs ain't vegan. To know wheter or not if donate blood is vegan, why do you want me to answer this since anyway you seem to stick to your own definitions of things. But to donate your blood for your own potential future need, that would be fine, since it wouldn't be the blood of someone else but your own blood. Unfortunately the blood cannot be stored enough long to do this. Otherwise you can be sure I would donate my blood in case I need it later.

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That doesn't make any sense. Cannibalism? You're not eating or drinking the blood. A transfusion is nothing like Cannibalism. It doesn't even fit into the same Category.

 

Cannibalism is defined as

 

 

 

Main Entry:

can·ni·bal·ism Listen to the pronunciation of cannibalism

Pronunciation:

\ˈka-nə-bə-ˌli-zəm\

Function:

noun

Date:

1796

 

1 : the usually ritualistic eating of human flesh by a human being 2 : the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of the same kind 3 : an act of cannibalizing something

— can·ni·bal·is·tic Listen to the pronunciation of cannibalistic \ˌka-nə-bə-ˈlis-tik\ adjective

 

Drinking blood would be considered Cannibalism. But a transfusion is not the same as drinking. It doesn't even enter the digestive tract. None of the blood gets digested( And if it does it's due to a faulty procedure which doesn't happen too often )

 

Lots of Animals drink stuff from another. A cow is a herbivore. But as a baby it drinks from it's mother. So I guess the cow is a cannibal too.

 

And by your definition of Cannibalism all babies while they are in the mothers womb are in fact Cannibals. After all they live inside the mother and feed off of her.

 

And by the same definition too anyone who receives a hair transplant or organ is a cannibal.

 

So maybe we should all start eating each other. We were born Cannibals so we should live like Cannibals.

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Well, it doesn't really matter one way or the other. I felt it was necessary for me to say something on this subject, just so that there was a voice putting across the opinion that it's okay to have a transfusion and to drink / give breast milk / other bodily fluids (saliva, sex fluids etc) as a vegan - people reading this forum should not get the impression that that all vegans believe these things to be unvegan. If others feel that it isn't vegan, and have another interpretation of veganism, it doesn't necessarily have to be a problem, we don't have to agree with one another. However, I would always encourage people to breastfeed their children, there is a lot of info out there to suggest it is the best form of nutrition and there are many negative effects of not breastfeeding. If someone doesn't want to have a transfusion, that's up to them.

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That doesn't make any sense. Cannibalism? You're not eating or drinking the blood. A transfusion is nothing like Cannibalism. It doesn't even fit into the same Category.

 

Cannibalism is defined as

 

 

 

Main Entry:

can·ni·bal·ism Listen to the pronunciation of cannibalism

Pronunciation:

\ˈka-nə-bə-ˌli-zəm\

Function:

noun

Date:

1796

 

1 : the usually ritualistic eating of human flesh by a human being 2 : the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of the same kind 3 : an act of cannibalizing something

— can·ni·bal·is·tic Listen to the pronunciation of cannibalistic \ˌka-nə-bə-ˈlis-tik\ adjective

 

Drinking blood would be considered Cannibalism. But a transfusion is not the same as drinking. It doesn't even enter the digestive tract. None of the blood gets digested( And if it does it's due to a faulty procedure which doesn't happen too often )

 

Lots of Animals drink stuff from another. A cow is a herbivore. But as a baby it drinks from it's mother. So I guess the cow is a cannibal too.

 

And by your definition of Cannibalism all babies while they are in the mothers womb are in fact Cannibals. After all they live inside the mother and feed off of her.

 

And by the same definition too anyone who receives a hair transplant or organ is a cannibal.

 

So maybe we should all start eating each other. We were born Cannibals so we should live like Cannibals.

NONE of all the things you said are true. When you're a feotus, you don't eat your mother, you eat what she eats, through the umbilical cord, so the feotus is not a cannibal. When you're a baby (human or cow or any other animals), you're not drinking blood or eating organs from the mother, you're drinking her milk, which is made especially to nourrish the baby. You seem to think there's a difference between drinking blood and blood transfusion, but there's no difference. Samething with eating an organ or having it transplanted. Some people can't eat by their mouth anymore (because of a disease ot anything else) so they're feed through intraveinous, through a hole in their throat, or directly in their stomach by a hole. Everything that enters the body is inspected by the body as potential food, then rejected or accepted by the body. Your new cells are made of what you eat. If you eat toxic chemical products, you won't live very long, samething then if you put poisons directy in your veins. Having an organ transplanted is like eating it, (it goes in your body) but it's even worse because you're gonna have this thing inside of you for the rest of your life, but if you eat it and digest it, most of it will leave the body after 3 days. If you drink blood (or fruit juice, whatever), you digest it and then it flows into your veins; if you get a blood -- or fruit juice -- transfusion, it goes directly to your veins. Samething, just faster.

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You may be right or wrong. I don't feel like going into any more discussion on Cannibalism.

 

The idea though that a Blood Transfusion is not Vegan is both wrong and right. It has to do with what Vegan means to you, how you describe the word Vegan and why you are Vegan.

 

For some Vegan means to avoid Animal Products and By-Products. Honey and other insect products are hard to determine. Some Vegans eat honey. Some people don't think of insects as Animals and some do.

 

You also have to look internally to yourself and think about why you are Vegan. And that description will shape what you can and cannot do/eat.

 

Are you Vegan for the same reasons most Vegans are Vegan? That reason( The reason/description most common to Vegans ) is because they are Animal sympathizers and they want to eliminate Animal suffering. If that is the description you are using then you can't lump a Blood Transfusion in that description. Humans are capable of giving consent to use parts of them. Blood is usually always donated. How many animals do you know willingly donate there milk, honey, meat or cheese to humans? None. Using blood that has been transfused to you doesn't affect animals in any way, shape or form.

 

Are you a Vegan because you are trying to loose weight, Trying to lower the chances of certain diseases or to be all-around healthy? Well in this case/Description of Vegan a Blood transfusion could possibly be lumped into it. Can you get a disease from a blood transfusion? It is quite possible. People have died in the past from aids or blood rejection. So in this case a Blood transfusion is not Vegan.

 

It all depends on your own personal beliefs in what a Vegan is. To me I add other things. I don't consume High Fructose Corn Syrup, Eat any products manufactured on shared equipment that of which eggs were processed on and I don't wear Animal Fabrics.

 

Now based on my personal description there may be some things you don't agree with. That's fine. There is no one description of Vegan. Only personal description. Everyone is Vegan for a different reason.

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You may be right or wrong. I don't feel like going into any more discussion on Cannibalism.

 

The idea though that a Blood Transfusion is not Vegan is both wrong and right. It has to do with what Vegan means to you, how you describe the word Vegan and why you are Vegan.

 

For some Vegan means to avoid Animal Products and By-Products. Honey and other insect products are hard to determine. Some Vegans eat honey. Some people don't think of insects as Animals and some do.

 

You also have to look internally to yourself and think about why you are Vegan. And that description will shape what you can and cannot do/eat.

 

Are you Vegan for the same reasons most Vegans are Vegan? That reason( The reason/description most common to Vegans ) is because they are Animal sympathizers and they want to eliminate Animal suffering. If that is the description you are using then you can't lump a Blood Transfusion in that description. Humans are capable of giving consent to use parts of them. Blood is usually always donated. How many animals do you know willingly donate there milk, honey, meat or cheese to humans? None. Using blood that has been transfused to you doesn't affect animals in any way, shape or form.

 

Are you a Vegan because you are trying to loose weight, Trying to lower the chances of certain diseases or to be all-around healthy? Well in this case/Description of Vegan a Blood transfusion could possibly be lumped into it. Can you get a disease from a blood transfusion? It is quite possible. People have died in the past from aids or blood rejection. So in this case a Blood transfusion is not Vegan.

 

It all depends on your own personal beliefs in what a Vegan is. To me I add other things. I don't consume High Fructose Corn Syrup, Eat any products manufactured on shared equipment that of which eggs were processed on and I don't wear Animal Fabrics.

 

Now based on my personal description there may be some things you don't agree with. That's fine. There is no one description of Vegan. Only personal description. Everyone is Vegan for a different reason.

Now I agree with everything you said Personnaly, I'm vegan for about all the reasons possible. My health, the health of animals, etc. You're right about not rearing animal fabrics. The main objective of veganism is to be a non-participant of all this industry and business based on animals and their death. Like animal testing in laboratory, or wearing a fur or leather coat. We don't digest the fur we wear,but it's still not vegan. So even if we don't digest human blood transfusion, it's not vegan neither. Of course it's not the samething, it's different context and circumstances, it all depends for each vegan perception of things, because of course blood transfusion doesn't really involve animal suffering... though many donators fear the needle and faint, lol. The other day I wanted to buy a sweetener... there's brown rice syrup, cane sugar, beet sugar, agave nectar, maple syrup... they're all vegan foods, but maple syrup involves the suffering of the maple tree. We literally dig a hole in it and take it's blood (sap). I don't know if it's about the same process for agave... But the others involve the death of rice, beets, etc. Veganism involves suffering too, but each person tries to do his best. It might be better to eat only fruits and drink water, but not all of us are ready to make so many compromises, and veganism cause lot less pain than omni diet. I try to buy mostly whole foods, but when I buy already made food products, I buy them even when it says "may contains traces of milk or eggs". Anyway, nowadays, nothing is 100% organic anymore, even foods called as organic may be 1 or 2% GMO. And it's impossible to be 100% vegan, because most plant-based foods are grownt using fertilizers containing blood flour and bone flour, even most farmers on organic farms do use those. This goes into the grains, fruits, veggies, because they nourrish themselves from the soil... We are what we eat.

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That is exactly why I want to grow my own food and eventually start my own vegan food company where everything used in the products are personally grown by the company( Without animal crap )

 

The idea though that plants suffer the same as animals is up in the air. There's no real way to tell. Sure they are living but not like Animals. Heck to be technical with that description we can't eat anything. Fruitarians only consume food that comes from the plant. In essence not harming the actual plant. Fruits, Berries, Nuts and seeds would be all we could eat. But if we consider that the idea behind Fruitarianism is to lower plant suffering then why do we steal there fruits, Berries, Nuts and seeds? Those are plant by-products. What right do we have to eat those? Did the tree give you the right to eat those apples and oranges? Did that bush say it was okay to eat/take it's berries and Nuts? NOPE.

 

A human could not possibly survive that way. All we would have is water. We cannot survive on just water. It's only natural. It is nature. It used to be within nature for humans to consume animal flesh and crap like that. Well now we know that animal products are not needed by humans. Sure perhaps eating animals is natural in a sense we as humans have the intelligence not to. But take away vegetables, fruit, Nuts, Berries and all of that to try and eliminate any and ALL suffering will only lead to a deat by malnutrition.

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This is like watching a train wreck - I just cannot turn away. This thread has gone beyond ridiculous, IMO. It makes me a bit embarrassed to be associated with the forum because I know there are some people reading this thread and going "WTF? Are all vegans this nuts?"

 

I'm Your Man, I hope you always use condoms when having sex because I would hate for someone to be your cannibal.

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The idea though that plants suffer the same as animals is up in the air. There's no real way to tell. Sure they are living but not like Animals. Heck to be technical with that description we can't eat anything. Fruitarians only consume food that comes from the plant. In essence not harming the actual plant. Fruits, Berries, Nuts and seeds would be all we could eat. But if we consider that the idea behind Fruitarianism is to lower plant suffering then why do we steal there fruits, Berries, Nuts and seeds? Those are plant by-products. What right do we have to eat those? Did the tree give you the right to eat those apples and oranges? Did that bush say it was okay to eat/take it's berries and Nuts? NOPE.

I agree that harming plants is certainly less pain than the pain caused to animals in factory farms and slaughtered animals. But about fruitarianism, it's not stealing fruits. The plant actually tell us to eat it's fruits, because when the fruit is ready to be eaten, it falls from the tree/brush, and then the best thing that can happen to the fruit is to be eaten before it rots. DV, I don't see what's so ridiculous. Controversial maybe for some people, and people say "that's ridiculous!" about non-conventional and traditional ideas.
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