R YOU UNHEALTHY?

[RAINRA]

I came across this response about vegans.

 

According to yahoo user...

 

beach hair x --- (claims to be a nutrition expert )

Vegetarians and vegans are NOT healthier. In fact, the opposite. They usually have to resort to consuming artificial things, such as torfu and B vitamin supplements. Hello - science says we should eat naturally occuring food. We can't just change our biology, we're omnivours - meat and plant eating. Humans are designed to eat meat - that's why we have a few canine teeth, to rip the meat. We absorb iron from red meat the most efficiantly. We CAN'T absorb the iron in veg or any other food as well.

 

A food alone can't be labelled as unhealthy or healthy - you've got to say the AMOUNT. Latest studies showed too many vitamins, ie eating too much veg or fruit, actually weakens our immune systems. It can cause hair too thin and dull skin. So amount and regularity is just as vital, if not more, as what the food you're eating is. Even too much fruit is bad for us (honestly!). It's the same for red meat. Eat the essential amount, you give your body an iron boost, which is key for healthy blood, and keep your muscle power optimum, likewise body strength. A scientific experiment by TV doctors in the UK last year found that vegetarians AREN'T as

good athletes as meat eaters, because they're weaker. Even the hard work our digestive system does to break down the meat is all good, it strengthens it. It's ONLY when you eat an excess of meat that it becomes unhealthy. Then it wears out our digestion, risking pancreatic cancer, and leads to high cholestorel. Just like eating copious amounts of fruit's bad for our immune system. We need a bit of everything in the right quantities =)

[Marcina]

Torfu?

 

Wow sounds like an intelligent guy.

 

Edit: Sorry I thought the paragraph below was written by you, my mistake.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Marcina

[medman]

I loved the spelling mistakes. Truly an entertaining read. Oh, especially about how getting too many fruit and vitamins weakens the immune system

[hilary wright]

Early this century, it was "scientifically" proven that fresh air was unhealthy . . . so I guess that proves that "torfu" is a real killer!

Edited July 23, 2008 by hilary wright

[RAINRA]

IT was a girl or lady with bleached hair... and the answer comes from a question that I posted I wanted to see what people thought of vegans. I use to think vegans were hippies until I got vegycated oh I mean educated.

I am not a great speller my self but I still think some people have a lot of crap in their mouth and they just need to get it out.... ooooooh their is poop in the meat ... thaaaat explains it....

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylc=X3oDMTE1MmI4N2IyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAxMTgEc2VjA2Fuc19ub3QEc2xrA3N1YmplY3Q-;_ylv=3?qid=20080722074529AAcX3rz

[hilary wright]

IT was a girl or lady with bleached hair... and the answer comes from a question that I posted I wanted to see what people thought of vegans. I use to think vegans were hippies until I got vegycated oh I mean educated.

I am not a great speller my self but I still think some people have a lot of crap in their mouth and they just need to get it out.... ooooooh their is poop in the meat ... thaaaat explains it....

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylc=X3oDMTE1MmI4N2IyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAxMTgEc2VjA2Fuc19ub3QEc2xrA3N1YmplY3Q-;_ylv=3?qid=20080722074529AAcX3rz

[Zack]

I agree with some parts of that. It's not that we are not omnivorous, it's that people eat too much meat and other animal foods. It should be a supplement to a plant-based diet if you choose to eat it.

 

Anyways, even if it's true it doesn't change the ethics of the situation or the environmental benefits to being veg. Those are the most important things to a lot of people.

[Im Your Man]

he's just another idiot.

Omnivorous mean we can survive on : only meat, or only plants, or both. We don't NEED tofu and other processed stuff and nobody said that except himself. Just fruits and veggies, some nuts and that's it, the best nutrition possible on Earth.

[Zack]

he's just another idiot.

Omnivorous mean we can survive on : only meat, or only plants, or both. We don't NEED tofu and other processed stuff and nobody said that except himself. Just fruits and veggies, some nuts and that's it, the best nutrition possible on Earth.

 

Not really...deficient in some things. mainly b12

[Fallen_Horse]

Not really...deficient in some things. mainly b12

Agreed

[Im Your Man]

About b12, Some vegans claim they don't have any kind of supplements or b12 fortified foods in years (3, 10, 30 years, etc) and feel fine. Some nations too, living a "primitive" lifestyle, many generations of veganism without any b12 supplements. While some other vegans have b12 defficiency after only a few months. It's something we don't fully understand yet, like the amount of protein requirements some times ago that we just begin to clarify now, 0,5gr/kg of bw being plenty enough for most people.

 

But about what that person is saying on veganism not being a superior diet, I have one thing to say to him:

 

don't say anything on what you don't know. Try veganism, then come talk about it. Don't talk as if you knew better then vegans themselves know. You don't know nothing about something that you never experienced.

 

The guy is basically saying that animal products are good for health because they're defiecient foods, inferior to plant-based foods, vegan foods which are, according to him, too rich in vitamins and minerals. Thing is, excess in everything is bad as he said, so of course you can have a beta-caroten overdose eating only carrots... and be deficient in other vitamins. That's why we need to eat a variety of fruits and veggies, that way we have just enough of ALL vitamins and minerals.

 

If the only problem with veganism is b12, just take a supplement and that's it.

But I doubt it is necessary, it's just in the imagination of some people, like when a vegan feel tired "oh it must be b12 deficiency", although I don't deny sometimes it can happen.

Lean & Green, who don't take b12 supplements I think? But consume everyday enormous amounts of algaes which are high in b12 but said to BLOCK b12 and cause b12 deficiency... well, his blood test says he's not defiecient at all. Seems like science is wrong again.

[medman]

If the only problem with veganism is b12, just take a supplement and that's it.

But I doubt it is necessary, it's just in the imagination of some people, like when a vegan feel tired "oh it must be b12 deficiency", although I don't deny sometimes it can happen.

Lean & Green, who don't take b12 supplements I think? But consume everyday enormous amounts of algaes which are high in b12 but said to BLOCK b12 and cause b12 deficiency... well, his blood test says he's not defiecient at all. Seems like science is wrong again.

 

B12 is a serious issue if you have no source of it for a prolonged period of time - like the case study of an elderly lifelong vegan who woke up blind one day. After an intravenous B12 infusion, he was up and back to normal. B12 deficiency can also cause symptoms of pernicious anemia (pernicious anemia is technically cause by impaired absorption of B12, but a lack of B12 intake can produce similar symptoms).

 

B12 really is essential to health - but it is also the vitamin that you require in the least quantity. If you're not a raw vegan, chances are you get plenty from soy milk alone since it's usually fortified with B12. Those processed meat replacements are also fortified.

Edited July 23, 2008 by medman

[DV]

It saddens me that we continue to have this conversation about B12 and the fallacy that spirulina is a source of true B12. Despite what one forum member's blood values show (and it's debatable that the test is picking up on his true B12 level or the analogue), we shouldn't use his reported lab results to disprove scientific studies. Refuse supplementation at your own risk.

 

 

From http://www.vegsoc.org:

 

"Dietary Sources

 

The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12.

Spirulina, an algae available as a dietary supplement in tablet form, and nori, a seaweed, have both appeared to contain significant amounts of B12 after analysis. However, it is thought that this is due to the presence of compounds structurally similar to B12, known as B12 analogues. These cannot be utilised to satisfy dietary needs. Assay methods used to detect B12 are unable to differentiate between B12 and it's analogues, Analysis of possible B12 sources may give false positive results due to the presence of these analogues.

 

Researchers have suggested that supposed B12 supplements such as spirulina may in fact increase the risk of B12 deficiency disease, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism.

 

The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic bacteria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining.

 

Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

 

Good sources of vitamin B12 for vegetarians are dairy products or free-range eggs. ½ pint of milk (full fat or semi skimmed) contains 1.2 µg. A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 µg. A boiled egg contains 0.7 µg. Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much of the B12.

 

Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals."

[medman]

Thanks for the info, DV. I apologize for my lack of knowledge regarding spriulina and B12.

[DV]

Don't apologize! There is a lot of bad information out there regarding vit B12 sources and a few of us on this forum take this subject very seriously and find ourselves posting about the importance of B12 supplementation frequently. It's always good to have this topic come up because new vegans visit this forum often - and hopefully get sound nutritional guidance.

[medman]

Good point. I remember how intimidating it seemed to be venturing out into the veg*n world for the first time. B12 is something I guess I've never paid too much attention to, because I down a ton of fortified soy milk. I still get it checked as part of my blood checkups, just to make sure I'm not having any problems with absorption - same for iron and vitamin D.

[Im Your Man]

It saddens me that we continue to have this conversation about B12 and the fallacy that spirulina is a source of true B12. Despite what one forum member's blood values show (and it's debatable that the test is picking up on his true B12 level or the analogue), we shouldn't use his reported lab results to disprove scientific studies. Refuse supplementation at your own risk.

 

 

From http://www.vegsoc.org:

 

"Dietary Sources

 

The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12.

Spirulina, an algae available as a dietary supplement in tablet form, and nori, a seaweed, have both appeared to contain significant amounts of B12 after analysis. However, it is thought that this is due to the presence of compounds structurally similar to B12, known as B12 analogues. These cannot be utilised to satisfy dietary needs. Assay methods used to detect B12 are unable to differentiate between B12 and it's analogues, Analysis of possible B12 sources may give false positive results due to the presence of these analogues.

 

Researchers have suggested that supposed B12 supplements such as spirulina may in fact increase the risk of B12 deficiency disease, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism.

 

The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic bacteria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining.

 

Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

 

Good sources of vitamin B12 for vegetarians are dairy products or free-range eggs. ½ pint of milk (full fat or semi skimmed) contains 1.2 µg. A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 µg. A boiled egg contains 0.7 µg. Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much of the B12.

 

Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals."

 

Thanks for the info DV. I've never read a complete long full article about b12, I know i should and I will soon, but I've read many small articles in books or exerpts, quotes like this one here, and it never seem to interest me that much, maybe because I haven't woke up blind one morning... lol, those urban legends about vegans --- how many people here woke up blind and then miraculously began to see again after a b12 injection? How many people every year in the U.S or other countries have been diagnosed having b12 deficiency? I've read from a b12 issue specialist (I think it was Michael Greger) saying it's pretty rare and that it's mostly anorexic people, and that it happens as much to omnivorous people than vegans. Not surprising: (in the quote above) "A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 µg. A boiled egg contains 0.7 µg.Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much of the B12.". So I guess boiling the egg also destroys some of it. And if boiling milk destroys b12, then I guess the b12 is already destroyed in milk, from the pasteurization! And cooking meat too! And if fermentation of yogurt destroys b12, why not the fermentation for cheese too? So if boiling, cooking, and fermentation destroys all b12 in animal foods... At least we can eat some vegan raw sources of b12, but people say those can't be assimilated by the body, or that it contains some substances that block it...Well, honestly I really doubt that nature would have made some imperfections like this. In nature there's a reason for everything, even small things. So why is there b12 in algaes if it's useless?

 

I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION, AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME I ASK IT YET PEOPLE NEVER ANSWER IT:

where do they take the b12 that they put in supplements like pills and in fortified foods like soy milks and veggiedogs?? Is it completely synthetic b12 made from scratch in laboratory or what? If it's from a plant food, then let's just eat that food.

 

From http://www.vegsoc.org:

 

 

"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries."

 

Well that's disgusting... and not vegan at all, so they're not "a group of Iranian vegans ".

If getting b12 with foods and without any supplements suggests that we need to eat not only animal products but RAW animal products such as raw milk and raw cheese (because as mentioned above boiling and fermentation destroys b12), which are foods that have high risks of being infected with some bacterias that pasteurization would have killed, or if it means to be on a vegan diet but requires to eat human fecal matters... well, I prefer to wash my greens carefully and just wait to see if I get suddenly blind one morning. If it happens I'll take that magic injection. But anyway it won't happen because I eat some b12 fortified vegan foods almost everyday and even have b12 pills that I take when I think about it.

 

I'm just saying, all those scientific excentricities seem far too much complex, and not natural, life is simple. I'm wondering why some raw vegan foodists and fruitarian athletes that take no b12 supplements are breaking world records. Explain, please.

[Guest]

This thread has been really funny and entertaining, and also serious about some issues.

 

I'm Your Man is particualrly right. It is not necessary to eat animals in order to get an adequate supply of vitamin B-12. For years now, we raw food vegans have used rejuvelac (fermented wheat water made from sprouted wheat). Also, other fermented foods. You can review our article at http://www.viktoras.org/vikimchi.pdf. My friend Dr. Ann Wigmore, founder of http://www.hippocratesinst.org had the nutritional analysis done by food scientists and the evidence is still available of some of her publications which are still available at Amazon.

 

There is much evidence that B-12 is manufactured in a healthy intestine which is clean and nourished by raw fruits and vegetables, seeds and nuts.

 

You can review our perspective on the "B-12" controversy in our classic bestseller which is available at http://www.survivalinthe21stcentury.com and also Amazon if you do a book search with my name, Richard Tasca.

 

Has anyone met that torfu guy. Is he really as intelligent as someone suggested?

Torfu is about to invade the planet.

[DV]

I'm Your Man, B12 comes from bacteria, not plants.

 

Again, for those reading this thread who want to thrive on a vegan (or omni) diet, especially if you are 50 or older - neglect supplementing at your own risk. Look to reliable sources, from those whose credentials you can verify - and you will discover that the vast majority of nutritionists, doctors, scientists, etc. suggest that vegans (and anyone over 50) supplement with vitamin B12. Right now, in 2008, there are people who believe that the earth is indeed flat. There will always be those who have different beliefs, despite the evidence.

[calusa]

Can eating insects be part of a vegan lifestyle? In the past I've eaten aphids and other small insects on my greens that I get from the garden, and also honey ants from northern australia, both were no problem in terms of taste and texture, especially with the aphids and what-not from the garden you don't even notice them. However, now if I see some insects I brush them off because I don't want to hurt too many living things. Another way of looking at it is how far above the plant kingdom is the insect kingdom, or even the bacteria kingdom. Spirulina is a single celled organism isn't it, something that has sensory organs and a nervous system. Plants may have come from these single celled organisms in the first place, but which one is a higher form of life? Maybe insects are not that different from bacteria, they lack many organs that larger life-forms have. Ants behave a bit like a large group of single celled organisms, they work together as a single unit.

[Guest]

I have found that best forms of B-12 supplements, if someone wants to take them, are sublingual. I used to use a few for a real energy kick before a workout.

[medman]

Another way of looking at it is how far above the plant kingdom is the insect kingdom, or even the bacteria kingdom. Spirulina is a single celled organism isn't it, something that has sensory organs and a nervous system. Plants may have come from these single celled organisms in the first place, but which one is a higher form of life? Maybe insects are not that different from bacteria, they lack many organs that larger life-forms have. Ants behave a bit like a large group of single celled organisms, they work together as a single unit.

 

This will be a purely scientific post, based on phylogenetics (the branch of science that works on categorizing animals and their evolutionary relationships).

 

Spirulina is actually a cyanobacterium, so it is of the domain (superkingdom) Prokaryota - this includes all bacteria. These organisms are structurally the simplest form of life. They have no sensory organs, nervous systems or even most of the organelles (membrane-bound compartments) found in eukaryotic cells such as our own. An organ can only exist in multicellular organisms, because an organ is a multicellular unit specialized for a particular function. Organ systems and sensory systems therefore cannot exist in single-celled life forms such as Spirulina. That said, there is a photosensitive "eyespot" on the single-celled eukaryote called Euglena. It helps its little flagella propel it toward light (it is a photosynthetic organism). This, however, is a matter of photosensitive molecules linked to motor protein molecules, not an "eye" (which is a multicellular sensory organ) linked to a "muscle" (which is a multicellular motor organ).

 

Insects are part of the kingdom Animalia, so insects are indeed classified as animals. Whether insects are a "higher" or "lower" form of life is a matter of perspective - evolutionarily speaking, there are insects which are as, or even more, "advanced" than you or me (this term refers to how recently a particular genus or species has evolved, as well as how many adaptive changes they have undergone and how recently those changes occurred). The vast majority of animals on this planet are insects, and most of them are better adapted to their environments than you or I. In terms of nervous or cognitive function, many insects have little more than a series of reflex circuits tied to their sensory systems, though. So "higher" or "lower" forms of life are a matter of perspective - ask an evolutionary biologist and many insects are extremely advanced. Ask a behavioural psychologist, and there won't be much competition between a cockroach and a cat.

[Im Your Man]

This thread has been really funny and entertaining, and also serious about some issues.

 

(...)

 

Has anyone met that torfu guy. Is he really as intelligent as someone suggested?

 

That torfu guy ain't intelligent at all. What he says and the way he tells it makes him look like a clown or something. His nickname is "beach hair" ? "A scientific experiment by TV doctors" ... what are TV doctors? He says that vegan athletes aren't as good athletes as meat eaters, "because they're weaker"... uh so that's the reason ? The fastest man on the planet to break the 10 seconds on 100 meters is vegan, and 40 years old raw vegan runner Tim VanOrden winning all runs against 20 years old kids, and Mac Danzig, winning all fights at UFC, world champion many years in a row isn't beating all omnis? The world champion of French Boxing is also a vegan. Not to mention bodybuilders here, like Avi : http://veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bio_avi

This Torfu guy is just saying things, people say all kinds of things. He doesn't know what he's talking about. As vegans, most of us were omnis during most of our life, and then we're vegans, so I think we know better. Even when we were eating meat, we wouldn't believe a vegan diet is healthier, until we tried and saw for ourselves. There's no omnis that understands that a vegan diet is superior or can at least be very healthy, otherwise they wouldn't be omnis anymore, they would be vegans. The only exception are people who know it's better to be vegans but are not ready yet/unable to quit their addiction to animal products.

 

"Humans are designed to eat meat - that's why we have a few canine teeth, to rip the meat."

wow, so gorillas eat meat too I guess. We could say: our body is innofensive, no claws or anything, so we're not designed to hunt, kill, or eat flesh. If he thinks meat is good, I suggest him to go smell and taste a dead animal rotting under the sun and let's see if he likes it as much as a hungry lion does. Actually, the lion is gonna eat him too.

 

"eating too much veg or fruit, actually weakens our immune systems. It can cause hair too thin and dull skin."

So that's the diseases from being vegan... do I need to say the list of diseases a omni diet causes? Besides heart attacks and all cancers, here's all the diseases that only milkc an cause.

 

 

beach hair x --- (claims to be a nutrition expert )

Vegetarians and vegans are NOT healthier. In fact, the opposite. They usually have to resort to consuming artificial things, such as torfu and B vitamin supplements. Hello - science says we should eat naturally occuring food. We can't just change our biology, we're omnivours - meat and plant eating. Humans are designed to eat meat - that's why we have a few canine teeth, to rip the meat. We absorb iron from red meat the most efficiantly. We CAN'T absorb the iron in veg or any other food as well.

 

A food alone can't be labelled as unhealthy or healthy - you've got to say the AMOUNT. Latest studies showed too many vitamins, ie eating too much veg or fruit, actually weakens our immune systems. It can cause hair too thin and dull skin. So amount and regularity is just as vital, if not more, as what the food you're eating is. Even too much fruit is bad for us (honestly!). It's the same for red meat. Eat the essential amount, you give your body an iron boost, which is key for healthy blood, and keep your muscle power optimum, likewise body strength. A scientific experiment by TV doctors in the UK last year found that vegetarians AREN'T as

good athletes as meat eaters, because they're weaker. Even the hard work our digestive system does to break down the meat is all good, it strengthens it. It's ONLY when you eat an excess of meat that it becomes unhealthy. Then it wears out our digestion, risking pancreatic cancer, and leads to high cholestorel. Just like eating copious amounts of fruit's bad for our immune system. We need a bit of everything in the right quantities =)

[Guest]

I'm Your Man is absolutely right on all accounts. He usually is, judging from his numerous posts. Especially with his raw beets and horseradish. Not many people know about that and could even think of something so good. It takes courage.

 

It is only when one pursues the path of truth about health and experiences the benefits of vegan and raw foods that one can look back at one's prior existence as an omnivore and carnivore and say, "What was I thinking?".

 

The experience of improved health from having the courage to pursue a better path is the proof. Of course, there is also a lot of scientific evidence to back up these claims. The sleptics and naysayers will always be there. You have to have the courage to prove it to yourself.

 

Forget about the B-12 debate, make sure you get your B-12 from vegan sources and don't kill the animals.

Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi, proponent of Transcendental Meditation and vegetarian diet for optimal health, passed away in February at the age of 91.

[offense74]

You don't kill animals when you take b-12. b-12 is a substance that are made by certain bacteria.

Remember, there are people who smoke and eat donuts who will live to 110. They are then used by people who eat crap to defend their habits. Same goes for vegans and b-12. Just because there are vegans who feel jolly good and are hap-hap-happy without b-12 it doesn't meen that most of us will benefit from not taking it.