some questions on training

[Gary]

hi,

recently ive kinda let myself go to put it lightly. im 6'0 175lbs but ive kinda got the chuck liddell belly going on if you know what i mean. i havent watched my diet(still vegan but not too healthy) in a while and ive always had a wider midsection than most of my friends. i just cant get the v going i always have flab around the midsection no matter how hard i work or diet. is it possible to get really lean and ripped looking with that kind of body type? im talking like brad pitt in fight club as my ideal body. im lifting 4 days a week and shooting to burn 800 calories a day on the treadmill 7 days a week unless i completely cant do it. to be honest id post a picture but i am really not comfortable with my body so maybe in a few weeks. just want some input on calories i should be eating a day and whether i am over or under training. thanks guys and gals

[chrisjs]

Do you already know the answer to this? You say you've let yourself go recently... what were you doing previously that worked better?

 

It should be possible to get rid of that fat. Brad Pitt in Fight Club (why does everyone drool over him?) was very lean and not bulky at all. I don't know what your composition is now, but to look like him you may need to thin out significantly... losing muscle along with fat.

 

I lift 4-5 days per week, often twice per day. Intensity is strong and I'm not overtraining. I only hit each major muscle group once per week (though twice in the same day if I go twice). Why do you think you might be overtraining?

 

Also what are you eating? I'm eating mostly high protein, moderate fat and complex carbs. I avoid added sugars and keep natural sugars (fruit) to a minimum. I'm avoiding most refined things except protein powders. Seems to work best for me, but not for everyone.

Edited August 3, 2008 by chrisjs

[VeganEssentials]

I've answered some of the excessive cardio/calorie cutting concerns in the "lean body but faty tissue on the chest" thread, so I won't go into all of it here, but I can help with a few of the other things:

 

i havent watched my diet(still vegan but not too healthy) in a while and ive always had a wider midsection than most of my friends. i just cant get the v going i always have flab around the midsection no matter how hard i work or diet.

 

A good "v" shape is primarily due to having a wider upper back in proportion to a narrow waist, so if you have a blocky midsection like I do, then widening your back will be the way to go if you can't narrow your midsection down to accentuate the shape more. Lots of pull-ups, pulldowns and rowing movements will help with widening your back, but if you cut calories too much, you're not going to gain lean mass so beware of trying to focus on two completely different things at once (adding mass and reducing fat) since doing both simultaneously is pretty near impossible for most.

 

is it possible to get really lean and ripped looking with that kind of body type?

 

Just about anyone can get lean and ripped with any sort of build, so long as you find the diet and training that works best for your body. I've gone into this in other threads, but the main thing to remember is, everyone will respond to training/diets differently, so it may take a good deal of trial and error to find what is going to work best for you. Some people get lucky early on, otheres take years to find what is best, but so long as you take a practical approach you should be able to achieve your goals in due time.

 

im lifting 4 days a week and shooting to burn 800 calories a day on the treadmill 7 days a week unless i completely cant do it.

 

This part I've definitely covered in the other thread - don't burn yourself out with excessive cardio because you're going to most likely lose a crapload of muscle along with your fat (possibly more muscle than fat). Diet should be the first place you start - when I used to cut calories and still eat bad foods and snacks, I saw little to no results. Simply cleaning up my diet made the most difference overall for fat loss, so start with that first as your foundation. Step 2, spend a bit of time trying to determine what your average daily caloric needs are to maintain weight. Once you get a rough idea, either add cardio or cut calories slowly to start, say, by doing maybe 30 minutes of fast walking/incline walking/light jogging 3x/week on your non-lifting days and see how that goes to start. Too many people think that by drastically cutting calories or by doing massive amounts of cardio that they'll just lose fat, but if you go well beyond what your body is happy with, you're going to fry off your muscle and end up being lighter in weight but looking the same because you'll have around the same amount of fat distribution. This is why so many people who crash diet end up being "skinny-fat" because they may drop something like 30 lbs., but they burned off a ton of muscle that would have kept them looking better, when in the end a slower, planned diet that shed half as much weight would have made them look much better.

 

So, if you take anything away from this, it's that you should be cautious about how fast you approach an attempt to fat loss, don't overdo it, and start with diet because a crappy diet will screw your progress from being as good as it should be.

Edited July 31, 2008 by VeganEssentials

[RoadToSoy]

Honestly, I think you're entering the overtraining zone.

4 times lifting a week is ok, but 7 days of cardio seems too much to me. I'd lower it down to 5-6 at most. Get there gradually, as well.

Stay away from the gym at least one day a week (but no more than 2 I suggest) and give your body a complete rest. Go do something fun. It'd keep your motivation from burning out, give you more free time and allow your body to recover.

 

Also, watch your diet goes without saying (is that why you haven't mention it? ). Eat healthy, don't consume too many calories. However, don't under-consume calories. If you're going to work out as heavily, you're going to need lots of energy. Plus, losing weight a bit slower is a lot healthier (no loose skin issues, the weight tends to stay off unlike with many crash diets)

 

There are no tricks here.

If you're going to follow the workouts and diet you're going to see great results. It's a simple math.

I'm with chrisjs on the Brad Pitt comment, Pitt doesn't have lots of mass on Fight Club. You'd probably be more muscular than him (if you take the weights seriously). This isn't a bad thing.

 

Good luck!

[Gary]

thank you all for the fast responses.

i guess my main problem is finding my optimum calorie intake for maintaining muscle while losing fat. it almost seems like its so small of a window that if i change it at all it screws me all up. i either put on weight(but dont gain on my lifts?) or drop weight fast but get "skinny fat". i blame it on genetics. some of my friends eat completely unhealthy, never work out, and have leaner more muscular physiques. and the only reason im starting to think im overtraining is because my legs and lower back are so sore i can barely get out of bed.

so ive been researching a lot on getting lean and ive decided to try HIIT cardio for 5 days or so a week instead of long endurance runs on the treadmill.

thanks again guys

[Gaia]

I just wanted to put my spin on things. To get cut, it is all about the diet. I have worked with my body for a long time, and it is different for me this time around for cutting as I am now vegan. I still am doing all that I did before, like cutting out fruit, bread, processed foods, but changing my protein sources (hemp and brown rice and gluten, instead of chicken breasts). I basically eat oatmeal, brown rice, seiten, and lots of vegetables (and alot of supplements too). I have six meals a day, with the last one being very light (seiten salads I call them) and the one before working out my biggest, and the one after working out the next to biggest. I also end my eating at 8PM with a hemp shake (water only! and a tablespoon of agave so far. If the weight doesn't come off, then the agave goes. Yuck......). So check your diet! in addition to the workouts you do.

[veganmaster]

thank you all for the fast responses.

i guess my main problem is finding my optimum calorie intake for maintaining muscle while losing fat. it almost seems like its so small of a window that if i change it at all it screws me all up. i either put on weight(but dont gain on my lifts?) or drop weight fast but get "skinny fat". i blame it on genetics. some of my friends eat completely unhealthy, never work out, and have leaner more muscular physiques. and the only reason im starting to think im overtraining is because my legs and lower back are so sore i can barely get out of bed.

so ive been researching a lot on getting lean and ive decided to try HIIT cardio for 5 days or so a week instead of long endurance runs on the treadmill.

thanks again guys

 

There is hope! It is not just genetics. Physics is the same for everyone, though natural activity & appetite levels vary, and that's where the phrases "easygainer/hardgainer" come from. The key is maximizing the ratio of CHO:FAT in your diet. Every gram of fat you eat beyond basic needs (a mere 3% of kcal) is a step backwards from your goal of reducing fat stores and increasing protein stores (tons of details in my blog and other posts). Replace most of those fat grams with carbs and you will lower body fat and increase the efficiency of protein deposition. You need to set up your habits so each day you lose net fat. Thus you must do 3 things, first eat less total kcal than you expend, second, maximize the CHO:FAT ratio in your diet (focusing on starches not sugars), and third, exercise to burn FAT and CHO. If you read my blog you'll learn that the macronutrient ratios in the diet have a large effect on body recomposition and fat loss. Without this knowledge it is much harder to create the changes you want - but with a little knowledge about metabolism science and macronutrient physics, you gain the tools needed to create a succesful plan. Physics is constant, what determines body composition (levels of fat, glycogen, protein in the body) is the intersection of total kcal,CHO:FAT ratio & TEE (total energy expenditure). You CAN do it!

 

Personally, I find the easiest method to be fasting, because you are guaranteed significant fat loss during the day, and then in evenings you can eat several MNP meals to satisfaction (full belly) - yet overall you lose fat every day. I started @172 or so, and now I'm down to 158, and I think I may have gained a little muscle too, so I've probably lost about 14 lbs of fat so far (this is my first serious cutting). The great benefit is that I don't get hungry during the day (catecholamines), and then I get to eat until full at night, yet I lose net fat daily. Strange as it seems, starches are ideal for both cutting and bulking, because they offer a steady release of low-fat energy (the fat you eat is the fat you wear). When cutting, you lower total kcal below TEE, when bulking you increase kcal above TEE, but either way starches are the most effective means of maintaining/increasing protein stores and minimizing/decreasing fat stores, as I've tried to explain in my blog.

[Gary]

thanks you guys are a huge help. one more question if anybody can help me out. i am on an extremely low food budget. basically all i can afford for now is instant brown rice, cans of black beans, and bags of lentils. its the cheapest way i could find of getting protein and carbs. i usually just make a huge pot of it in the morning and eat it all day long. i take a vegan multivitamin and drink some soy milk and plenty of water. but this is my diet defined. is this lacking anything? other than variety i mean.

[chrisjs]

You can probably get non-instant brown rice and dried beans cheaper. If you have any asian markets in your area, you can usually find very cheap tofu there (as well as cheap rice).

 

Also I'd shoot for not-reduced-fat, unsweetened soymilk. Plain or vanilla is your preference.

 

Not sure what might be lacking.

 

thanks you guys are a huge help. one more question if anybody can help me out. i am on an extremely low food budget. basically all i can afford for now is instant brown rice, cans of black beans, and bags of lentils. its the cheapest way i could find of getting protein and carbs. i usually just make a huge pot of it in the morning and eat it all day long. i take a vegan multivitamin and drink some soy milk and plenty of water. but this is my diet defined. is this lacking anything? other than variety i mean.

[Gaia]

I would add some dark green leafy vegetables for some vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants. I use kale (throw it in the lentils at the last couple of minutes to keep all the nutrients - just wilt it, do not cook it too much!), and sometimes spinach, swiss chard, and sometimes pigweed from my garden !

[makke]

Yes, definately add some veggies, preferably kale, brocoli, spinach, bok choi (they own at phytochemicals). They are usually cheap. Some fruit now and then ..

 

Veganmaster, I closely folow your blog (commented it earlier) and it sounds almost too god to be true, I want to try it. It also sounds like a fairly cheap diet