Politics: Race...

[dontxhide]

Its been a while...

 

So I have questions that hopefully you all can answer. I know race is a touchy subject, so please be civil in your answers and the debates, if any.

 

Here we go:

 

Do people of color want help from whites? I am not refering too everday things, like jobs, money, etc. I am talking about revolution. Preparing for or helping their causes.

 

For example: Dead Prez. Now I know they do not speak for all black men in America, so their ideas arent shared by the majority of Americans in general reguardless of race, but I happen to like their music.

 

I saw M1 of Dead Prez give a speech at a college here, talking about the Black Panther Party, and what people can do in this day and age to create revolution in our lives and communities. The speech he gave was amazing, a very talented speaker. He took questions at the end of the talk, where anyone could stand up and ask questions.

 

And the question was asked: "As a priveleged white man, what can I do to help the black cause in general. Or help people of all races regain freedom."

 

Which, and I cant remember EXACTLY what he said, but it was close enough, M1: "Since our country was built by black hands, and grew when our blood spilled, it is the black mans duty to take the country back. You can help by getting the word out, spreading information our our historical and current plight, but when the shit hits the fan, stay out of the way. We need to free ourselves without the white mans help."

 

Now Im assuming that he also believes this in other black struggles/causes. Like the Move 9, Mumia, etc. Although I want to help in all these causes, as white man, and listening to what M1 said, it sounds like he is saying not to help in these causes, because the black men need to free themselves.

 

Is this what every black revolutionary thinks?

 

I hate to say this, and maybe this is ignorant, but what about my freedom? Freedom from this government that oppresses not just the other races, but the poor, the revolutionaries, dissenters. What about the way I hate how Mumia is locked up, and want to help in any way possible.

 

Do I just stand by the side lines, cause as M1 said, since it was the people of color who built our land and was oppressed during it, it is their responsibility to free it?

 

Confused. Your thoughts?

 

PS: I still do everything mentioned above. I fight for freedom and injustices as I see them, but, albiet probably not in our life time, IF a revolution does happen, I dont want to be hiding in my basement while war against an oppressive government is going on, Id much rather be out there and help.

[veganmomma]

I personally don't want help from whites. If white anti-racist activist want to help they should organize and fight right-wing and left-wing racism in the white community. I don't need to be recused by a white savior.

 

I and many other People of Color (POC) don't trust most white progressive activist because they won't confront their colleagues and friends about their racism. I've been stabbed in the back too many times by white progressive activist who claim to be anti-racist. When many white progressive activist are confronted about their racism they get defensive.

 

Many white social justice activist think they are immune to racism because they are involved in social justice causes. Most white anti-racist activist are vehemently opposed to right-wing white supremacy i.e. Nazi Skinheads, however many are silent when it comes to confronting left-wing white supremacy.

 

I and many other POC have been accused by defensive white people of being anti-white and racist for not trusting white people. POC cannot be racists because we are NOT in power. White Supremacy is a global system of oppression.

 

I will NOT respond to any questions on this thread if asked because I started a similar discussion on Vegan Fitness which was a colossal waste of time. Most white people don't get it.

 

I wrote this post to voice my frustration. A lot of what I wrote is why I retired from political activism after nearly 11 years.

[veganmomma]

This post is more or less just pure flamebait.

 

Maybe one of the admins can open a section of the forums for people who just want to argue. I'd likely be a regular.

jaleel, there's is nothing preventing you from arguing on this forum. I choose not to participate in *online* political discussions about race and many other issues.

[veganmomma]

Ok, I'll weigh in on the issue. My friend Anthony Hilder once debated Khalid Muhammad (the former Black Panther leader, the one who was previously Farrakhan's National Assistant). .

Correction Khalid Muhammad was the leader of the New Black Panther Party (NBPP)an organization that is not affliated with the Black Panther Party (BPP) co-founded by Huey P. Newton and Bobby Seale. The BPP was pro-queer and NOT anti-white.

 

NBPP are homophobic, anti-white, and anti-Jewish.

[Richard]

To the original question "Do people of color want help from whites?" - I don't think it's a yes or no, since not all non-caucasian people will agree. I'm sure some non-caucasian people will value the help of caucasians, and some would prefer not to have that help.

 

I personally don't understand not wanting help from someone based on their ethnicity. If this is to do with black people wanting to take over a country for themselves, then of course it would kind of make sense that white people wouldn't be involved in that. But that seems like an unreasonable goal to have. However, if the goal is equality, then surely it shouldn't matter what ethnicity people are when they are all working towards the same goal - which is to all be treated / regarded as equal.

[Ping]

I personally don't understand not wanting help from someone based on their ethnicity. If this is to do with black people wanting to take over a country for themselves, then of course it would kind of make sense that white people wouldn't be involved in that. But that seems like an unreasonable goal to have. However, if the goal is equality, then surely it shouldn't matter what ethnicity people are when they are all working towards the same goal - which is to all be treated / regarded as equal.

Yep. It makes me kind of sad to see that it's often not a movement for general equality but for freeing a race which in fact just supports racism it its own way. It's like saying that there has to be a law that says how many women a company has to employ. It's sexism, too. We shouldn't give things like race or gender any value in these concerns to really make progression.

[phillipeb]

It is hard to debate race without bringing into it the qualifying arguments of why racism exists and the notion of history and how it weighs on a groups collective decision. The idea that one man can represent a cultural movement at the exclusion off all other voices is ludicrous. Not ever black man is of the same opinion. Also when confronted with the language of "As a privileged white man" "do you want my help" there is little choice but to take the cultural stereotype and bias because the question was framed within in it. If the question was asked in this manner: "As a college student" or "How can i help fight the injustices you have spoken about today" the conversation would have gone much differently. It is a matter of psycholinguistics instead of anti racist rhetoric.

 

When we think of the notion of civil rights we have no choice but to think about the way in which America was founded and the abuse suffered from those that came before. But it is also important to note that the issue of slavery was not a shared guilt many were fighting to subvert the practice. So to group together all white people as those who deserve to give the cold shoulder to negate the achievements of people who historically may have strove to help you.

 

I think the notion of racism, at least in America, is a moot point because we are a poly ethic group of people who are depending on history as the basis of the condemnation of morality in the current time frame. Racism exists and the notion that one must turn their back on all in order to spurn racism is a double edged sword. What i think the argument really boils down to is the nature of the right to feel entitled and the want for social and economic reparations. When one looses ones culture at the hands of a merciless occupation than we feel listless and lost. Without a sense of cultural relativity we are doomed to search for something that may not be obtainable. I think that a potentially positive step would be to take ownership of the idea of slavery as well as pride in the fact that you were integral in the building of a nation. Pride however does not negate the solom nature of the sacrifice but the idea of rejoicing in ones journey as well as mourning ones difficulties is not unheard of (i.e. Jewish victims of holocaust).

 

I think that the notion of taking back ones power should be viewed metaphorically instead of literally, although i cannot say for certain that the gentleman in question was not talking about an African American liberation or a spiritual one. Can we as privileged white people help African Americans? the answer is yes in any way we feel we should. Can African Americans help themselves? the answer is yes in any way they feel they should. It takes societies willingness to change as well as finding that connection between self and society to bring an indenture group into the light of the notion of equality. I do not see a world of color when i look but rather a world of people hearkening to a fascist belief in identification in order to have a collective response to stimuli. We are more than race, especially in America.

 

But than again i may be radical in calling for an end of identification in order to live as oneself instead of ones sterotype whether culturally or spiritually.

 

I realize that my words may be taken by some as inflammatory or insensitive but i belive in what i have said and i belive in equality and progression karmatically as well as culturally. We all evolve we all change and it is in the hope of repairing what came before. Sometimes that takes bloody violance and sharp words that cut through the levels of bureaucracy and sometimes it is evolving the idea of forgiveness both of ones enemies and oneself. In ten generations when the world is mixed to a point where common lineage is so inexorably intertwined that we have no choice but all to look back and bow our heads down with tears in our eyes we will then understand the primacy of standards we have placed in our notions of liberation. There can be no liberation from humanity only liberation from self. It is the inner not the outer journey in which we find the evolution that brings people together.

[CollegeB]

You should never trust a "white progressive activist." How's that for flamebait? I also don't want anyone to take back or take over the country and have the reins of state. Those reins need to be burned. Furthering any cause through the political spectrum is pure bullocks.

[DaN]

PLEASE READ:

 

Most Black people, IMO, do not like the fact that they were taken from Africa as slaves & brought to America by white people.What some people dont realise is that these Black African slaves were brought to America after the White (European) man had killed off most native Americans like the Aztecs, Maya, & North American Indians (Hopi's, Apache's etc) and had run out of decent slaves. Lets not forget that White America is a mix of European Whites & as such there is no original White American.The original inhabitants were the Indians.

 

This process of slavery & human cruelty was done by the White European race.It could not have been worse.These peoples were worked to death, starved, beaten, had their women taken from them & had their cultures erased.For those reasons, White people really need to understand that Blacks & others will probably never get over it.It is not the sort of thing that can be simply forgotten, especially in a matter of centuries.Maybe in a thousand years the wound will have healed a little better.

 

While most of the above mentioned races of Black & Red men were busy developing their own cultures, the White men from Europe were building armies to take over the world.As an English person I am particularily educated on British Colonialism, which was the template for what America is doing today.

 

There is no doubt that behind the screens of our puppet governments, there exists unknown parties of men who have the real power.This/these groups are heavily associated with the World Bank, who hold not only 3rd world countries, but our countries in a form of slavery known as national debt.While we are within the confines of the World Banks monetary system we are all slaves.IMO, that was the driving force behind the attacks on Iraq, as Iraq was one of the few surviving independant sovereign states.Saddam Hussein had his face on the coins & he printed the money.The World Bank did not like that.

 

It remains the case that we are all certainly not free in the true sense of the word.Most of us are unaware we are being herded, like cattle.I call this era of our times "the domestication of the human race"

 

It is the Blacks, who seem particularily aware of this.

 

Revolution could eventually overthrow the current system, which has been in power since the last world power, Egypt.The symbolism of the handover from Egypt to White led USA is the pyramid on the US dollar.Take a look.

 

I worry as much about what could happen after this revolution, as what is happening now...

[DaN]

If these revolutionaries want to truly overthrow the government, they need to set up their own, independant monetary & economic/social system, or kill the people in goverment who have the current one.

 

It should be noted that the current World Bank has apache gunships & F-16s to defend its position, so the revolutionaries are gonna need a little more than an AK-47's

 

[CollegeB]

Dan sounds like you are talkin about agorism to an extent. And having more than an ak wouldn't hurt. I need to look into that.

[DaN]

Agorism:

 

Agorism is an anarchist political philosophy founded by Samuel Edward Konkin III that holds the ultimate goal as bringing about a society in which all "relations between people are voluntary exchanges — a free market."[1] The term comes from the Greek word "agora," referring to an open place for assembly and market in ancient Greek city-states. Ideologically, it is a term representing a revolutionary type of free market anarchism,[2] with "revolutionary" referring not to violent revolution but rather to an emphasis on counter-economics - untaxed black market activity, which agorists believe has the ability to contribute to the elimination of the state.

 

Yeah sure that sounds about right.Not to say I believe in this... I am not sure what I believe in when it comes to how our countries should be run.I just wish there was a minimum level of standard of life for every human being.A state I believe all people should be entitled to, as a basic.I really dont like the fact that they spent 90 billion dollars on the Chinese Olympics & yet there are starving people in Africa & homeless people on our streets.While some people struggle to live, others are spending 10 million dollars on a yacht because they want to look good.It is absolutely absurd.Our system of money breeds this kind of inequality which is totally unjustified imo.

[Richard]

PLEASE READ:

 

Most Black people, IMO, do not like the fact that they were taken from Africa as slaves & brought to America...

 

The blame has to lie with those who are responsible for enslaving black people, and with those who are still racist today. There is no reason to blame other white people who had no part in it (who weren't even born when the enslaving happened) and who are utterly anti-racism. The other thing to remember is that the black generations that exist now were not (and are not) enslaved or kidnapped and taken to another country. That's a crime that was committed against their ancestors, and whilst it is still heinous, it isn't something you can blame the current generation of white people for, as they were not involved.

[DaN]

I absolutely agree Richard.

 

However, we should understand, its easy for us to say get over it, its in the past, or, we were not the white people responsible, so dont blame us.But the truth is, it has left a physcological mark on them, & many, although not all, still are enslaved by the memories.

 

Imagine your ancestors had been enslaved in such a way by Black people, chances are you might still have a problem with all blacks, even if it was illogical.An intrusion into your very culture, based on your skin colour is a physical & phycological attack, & you may not be able to differentiate between those responsible, and just anyone who is that colour.

 

I am not quite sure we are in a position, in our priveleged country to understand this.Here in the UK we treat the immigrant Blacks very equally (it only took a couple of decades for this equality to occur, also they chose to be here) & you will notice that because of this they tend to be a lot more chilled out.In America, they are not treated the same, & I am sure they struggle to get employed, based on their skin colour.Not all the time but definately some of the time.Can you imagine having the paranoia in the back of your mind, that you might not be given oppurtunities because of your race? No we cant because we are White.

 

Sorry to say it, but we are indebted to all those races our ancestors mistreated.

[Richard]

Yeah I'm not saying "get over it" - I believe that everyone should be aware that slavery is and was wrong. I just don't see how it's connected to other white people. I understand why people are upset, because racism is such a widespread thing (and has gone on for so long), and many people are racist at some level even if it doesn't come across in their everyday life, some people may make the judgment that everyone must be racist. So I understand the paranoia, but if a black person becomes friends with a white person, knows them for years, knows that they are not racist and are not a threat, then I can't see how that black person can hold that white person responsible for anything negative which is happening for them, seems illogical.

 

I can understand being frustrated with the way society is run, if the people in power are racist. But to me, it comes down to individual blame. If a person denies you a job based on your ethnicity, then surely you become angry with that person, not with - for example - me, who had nothing to do with it. I can appreciate the reaction of "Oh, here we go, it's another racist refusing to give me a job, it's typical". But the leap to "Oh, well all white people must be racist" is an illogical and unfair one.

[DaN]

It is illogical & unfair, I do completely see your point.

 

Its not our fault for example, if other white people are racist.I am just trying to say that its understandable that they sometimes they label all whites as racists, when they carry around the paranoia some of them must have.

 

Of interest here is a program I watched on Russia.They are far more open about white supremacy & in general, anyone who is not white is in physical danger, in large areas of the country.Another situation the black people might look at, & go, "oh shit, more white racists"

[phillipeb]

I think we are relying on overtly simple viewpoints in which we are trying to ascrib a system of morality and blame on something that effects every aspect of being (culturally, self identification, spirituality, economics, and equality).

 

when we speak about race and racism we are there by validating the notion of it and creating a system in which we view and judge people positively or negatively based on color of skin. Even saying the black people in Europe are different belies a verbal prejudice. Typically we would not say the white people of Europe or I know this European or White person. But we do however based on cultural identifiers say this black dude or Blacks in this country or that country. We cannot even root out the philology rooted within our own speech.

 

It can not be boiled down to irrational anger vs rational anger. It is imbued within our observations. The real question should have been specific to the person who gave the lecture instead of a conjecture on the nature of race and all black people. What culturally does the speaker call to when he claims that he does not want help with his chosen mission of liberation or equality. Because it is something he himself wants it has to be thought and confronted in the context of the speaker instead of whom he was speaking for.

[phillipeb]

I think we are relying on overtly simple viewpoints in which we are trying to ascrib a system of morality and blame on something that effects every aspect of being (culturally, self identification, spirituality, economics, and equality).

 

when we speak about race and racism we are there by validating the notion of it and creating a system in which we view and judge people positively or negatively based on color of skin. Even saying the black people in Europe are different belies a verbal prejudice. Typically we would not say the white people of Europe or I know this European or White person. But we do however based on cultural identifiers say this black dude or Blacks in this country or that country. We cannot even root out the philology rooted within our own speech.

 

It can not be boiled down to irrational anger vs rational anger. It is imbued within our observations. The real question should have been specific to the person who gave the lecture instead of a conjecture on the nature of race and all black people. What culturally does the speaker call to when he claims that he does not want help with his chosen mission of liberation or equality. Because it is something he himself wants it has to be thought and confronted in the context of the speaker instead of whom he was speaking for.

[Bill]

Wow, I really agree with phillipeb's attitude and tone on this.

 

Although, I agree with veganmomma's thought about not discussing politics/issues of race on the internet. I saps too much enegry and time to convince so few.

[nobbi]

I don't understand the question at all. To me it really doesn't matter if someone wants help or not. No matter what colour. I do my best to help people and if they don't want my help.. fine. Just take it or leave it.

[SyrLinus]

Hrmm.. I'll add something to your thought process: white privilege. Might want to check out this article (http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html) and unpack your knapsack. (or read Tim Wise's White Like Me). Just because you weren't a "slave owner" doesn't mean that you aren't encouraging or part of a system that continues it in one form or another.

[phillipeb]

That was a pretty interesting paper thank you for linking it. One problem i see is that the paper is almost 20 years old, so the distortion the media plays on assumed and taken liberties of race are not addressed. Racism as a means to subvert is still prevalent unconsciously in America but the paper does not address the idea of white shame and the shared lexicon of ambivalence in America at this current time. It also ignores the neo cultural stereotypes that fashion and music have sought to replace the outmoded views of culture race and status. I would love to read something of hers about this topic in modern times. I think also taking the paper at face value i cannot emotively understand some of the things represented in the paper as more than an ideological thought form because I am not white and there for not 'privileged' in the same way. Viewing it through the male paradigm of power however does give me insight into what is indeed permissible or subversively in place as a mean to subvert others powers for my own in a passive manner.

[DaN]

I am not white

 

phillip, do you mean you are not white?

 

I'm a bit confused because your pic looks like you are...

[phillipeb]

i am mostly mexican with some spanish and italian thrown in.

[DaN]

Ooh interesting mix!