Roe v. Wade makes campaign comeback

[veganmomma]

Roe v. Wade makes campaign comeback

Democrats warn women that high court — and abortion rights — is at stake

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26460555/

[VeganDeVil]

Horrifying. I'll never understand the paradox of our 'freedoms' in this country. It's not a free country until people like Palin can say 'abortion is wrong for me, I will never do it.... but I respect your beliefs, despite them being different than mine. You have the right to make your own decisions about your own body.'

 

If that ideology was applied not only to the abortion issue, but say.... religion and foreign policy.... oh, what a wonderful world it would be.

[veganmomma]

Biographies of Current U.S. Supreme Court Justices (and their ages)

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/biographiescurrent.pdf

[Fallen_Horse]

Horrifying. I'll never understand the paradox of our 'freedoms' in this country. It's not a free country until people like Palin can say 'abortion is wrong for me, I will never do it.... but I respect your beliefs, despite them being different than mine. You have the right to make your own decisions about your own body.'

 

If that ideology was applied not only to the abortion issue, but say.... religion and foreign policy.... oh, what a wonderful world it would be.

 

Surely as a vegan you understand how flawed that reasoning is though. For example, you would never say, "Oh I'm a vegan, but I respect your decision to eat meat." That is, if you are a vegan for moral issues...

[VeganDeVil]

No, I'm not saying either side can't have opinions on what is the right or wrong way to conduct oneself, I'm saying LAWS shouldn't be passed that prohibit a person's personal choices in regards to their own body.

 

I am a Vegan for ethical reasons among others, but I would never support a bill that demanded all people become Vegan. I believe in educating people, helping them to understand what we are about, and hopefully converting a few along the way..... but every person has a right to be who they are. Despite what I might think about what's on their plate.

[CollegeB]

Interesting discussion.

Edited September 1, 2008 by CollegeB

[CollegeB]

I think vegans more than most people should not care for abortions as we respect life, I like to say all life. I'm not going to hold it against you if you don't nor think of you as less a vegan. There are some that support the war on terrorism and whatever other schemes the government cooks up, you guys get a pass as it would be completely illogical to favor a ban on abortion yet support actions which kill the innocent elsewhere, but anti war vegans probably should get on this train. Some have religious influences on this too, as there are even religious reasons to go vegan, and I know people who follow that, but for me this is more about consistency. As far as the general continent is concerned I'm with vegan devil. I dont want government ramming my ideas and opinions down people's throats especially since that same apparatus can be used to ram the ideas and opinions of others down my throat. Government has no business doing anything of the sort if you ask me. If our ideas are good they should be followed on their own merit; not by force. I've had to do some thinking on this, but in light of my previous point i'm not against non-violent direction action to defend the defenseless. My feeling is that these aggressions against the minorities in our society (being animals and the "unborn") are in part subsidized by uncle sam. it is my belief that these things are cheaper or occur more often due to this subsidization. Therefore, some interference on our part helps to straighten out the incorrect market signals i.e. "meat is affordable for everyday consumption. We need animal testing," etc. Ultimately people's minds need to change as I've not really seen violence or even non-violent direct action actually make problems go away, it seems to bolster them (look at the war on drugs). The market place of ideas (look at PCRM) and expense (meat prices are up; generic birth control is cheaper than abortions for sure) surely will help and I think it has a tremendous influence on worldviews as opposed to the aforementioned coercion used by government or the anti abortion groups that use pipe bombs and sniper rifles.

[VeganDeVil]

I dont want government ramming my ideas and opinions down people's throats especially since that same apparatus can be used to ram the ideas and opinions of others down my throat. Government has no business doing anything of the sort if you ask me. If our ideas are good they should be followed on their own merit; not by force.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

I am certainly not pro-abortion, it is a horrific act. But I'll forever fight for a pro-choice world. If something ever happens to me or the wonderful women in my life where abortion is the best answer, I want to know it's an option. Not only that, but if it becomes illegal, the number of incredibly unsafe and dangerous 'basement abortions' will rise dramatically. Teach people about the merits of responsible and ethical living, be it in their sex lives or what's on their dinner plate, and then let them live their lives from there. Totalitarianism benefits very few.

[Fallen_Horse]

And sadly, in this case, totalitarianism would benefit unborn babies...

[VeganDeVil]

But not the already over stretched orphanages and adoption agencies.

[VeganDeVil]

I apologize, I don't mean to attack, Fallen Horse. It's just a subject I'm passionate about. I completely understand your side of the argument.

[Fallen_Horse]

Oh no worries. And at this point I am neither pro nor anti abortion, I just like a good argument

[Emmybear]

The Republicans want to re-classify when life begins...As of now life begins when the egg implants into the uterus...The reclassification would reclassify the term when life begins to when the egg is fertilized. Birth control( the pill IUD ) works in two ways 1. preventing an egg from being released 2.Making the uterus a hostile place for the egg and therby a fertilized egg being discarded. This reclassification would make the pill and other forms of hormonal birth control forms of abortion.

 

This can block women's access to birth control and create more unwanted pregnancies and perhaps eventually make birth control illegal. It is not about reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies the religious conservatives just want thier agendas taken care of.

 

I agree everything should be done to avoid unwanted pregnancies included increased access to birth control and comprehensive sex education for teens and free counseling for young and unwed pregnant women to educate them on the alternatives to abortion. However making it illegal and perhaps in the future making birth control illegal is blurring the lines between church and state and imposing someones moral beliefs on the united states. If this right goes away they will just go after more and more until we are being taught intelligent design in a classroom and stem cell research has gone to a halt.

 

I went off on a tangent but you get the idea...there was a time when church and state were one...it was called the Dark Ages.....

[Fallen_Horse]

The abortion debate should have nothing to do with religion, only science...

[veganmomma]

Emmybear you made some good points.

[DaN]

I think women should have the right to abort if they want, but I worry that the men dont have a say.What I mean is if the man wants the baby & would be a good father.I find that a little sad.

 

Also I am not happy with the fact that alot of women who clearly have no morals, just use abortion & pills as a way to get rid of unanted pregnancies over & over again.

 

Every so often if its a genuine accident, ok, & in the case of rape, its totally ok, but when its constant, I dont think its right really.

 

Despite these problems it should still be really the sole right of the woman, not the government or church, imo.

[Emmybear]

The problem with the republican party is that they make no provisions for rape, incest or the health of the mother. That is unacceptable. In those situations I don't see how anyone could deny a woman her right to choose.

 

Yes there will be some people who abuse that right but that goes along with everything.

 

For instance Gun control I believe in the right to bear arms even though some Americans abuse that right. I believe in doing everything we can to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.But I would never vote for gun ownership to be illegal. Republicans are so staunch about their gun rights yet they want to take away our right to choose with no provisions just black and white across the board.

 

Guns Kill way more people in America than abortions. I cannot stand the hypocrisy. I am a independent I don't choose sides but I can't see myself voting republican anytime soon.

[CollegeB]

Emmy as a gun owner i'd like to thank you for taking a stance against trying to make me a criminal just for something that I own. I wont vote republican either, but I also wont vote for democrats. Both desire to force me to live by what they see as right. I find great fault in that.

[veganmomma]

Guns Kill way more people in America than abortions.

Emmybear do your homerwork. You're off by 808,532 unborn people.

 

According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), there were 839,226 legal induced abortions reported in the US for 2004. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5609a1.htm

 

According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), there were 30,694 Firearm Related Deaths in the US in 2005.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

[VeganDeVil]

Both desire to force me to live by what they see as right. I find great fault in that.

Oh, but it hasn't always been that way! The parties have always been far from perfect, but there really was a time (not too long prior to W's reign, actually) that you could fancy yourself a centrist, and have both conservative and liberal values. My mom, for example is a die hard liberal who is vehemently pro-life. In this day and age, it does seem that in order to identify yourself with a party, you must take on ALL its values. Very sad.

 

However, I would encourage anyone here who is american to take part in this next election.... it's an important one!

[CollegeB]

After reading your response Vegandevil I don't think I was clear enough. I don't think you have to personally accept all of the parties values, but the party is in charge, not you so what you as an individual think becomes invalidated to a large extent (tragedy of herd behavior). Voting gives the government and the parties a sort of validation to take charge and pursue their own interests. Thats why i'm not going to do it. I'm a grown-up I don't need leaders, especially ones who want to force me and other adults to live our lives and conduct our business in a manner politicians/leaders see as preferable. If you're not hurting anyone or stealing something there is no need to interfere.

[DaN]

There was a time, when leaders were chosen by their people on the merits of their instinctive morality & good judgement.They were leaders with basic authority, they had power over the average person but not more power than the people as a group.If they were turd, they were thrown out.

 

Now we have lost so much power to our leaders that we cannot even get close enough to talk to them.If we tried, they might shoot us.

 

On the whole, our leaders are more interested in their next holiday home & which yacht to buy next, the 10 million dollar one or the 12 million dollar one.Tough choices.

 

They usually care little for morals or pleasing their people, unless its voting time, when they pretend they are kissing our butts & are as moral as Jesus himself.

 

Screw voting.You are choosing between butthole#1 & butthole#2.Whichever way you look at it, they both are full of crap.

 

Of course one may be less full of crap than the other, so vote for him if you are sure which one of them that is.

[VeganDeVil]

I understand the arguments being made, but voting gives you a voice! It is a depressing thing, having to hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils, but the popular vote is one of the few things we have left in this crazy country.... I am voting for Obama not because I feel he represents me as a person, far from it. But because I am embarrassed to call myself an American based on how the country is currently being run. There is a reason, many reasons in fact, we have such a bad rap in the world. Part of what plays into that is our complacency in regards to our legal system.... not voting is the equivalent of voting for 'more of the same'.

 

I do wish the other parties (ie: Independent and Green Parties, etc.) were more major players. The idea that we can only seriously use our vote for one of two people is maddening, but that's the game right now.

 

I do think we can bring our compassion as vegans into our politics, and choose a politician *closest* to our own belief systems. That's how shit gets done! Election by election, inch by inch, we can vote bigotry out!

 

I realize that's a bit idealist, and ultimately unrealistic, but not voting is accepting things the way they are. And it strips you of your right to complain! If the current politics continue on as before, and you haven't at the very least voted, you cannot ever complain if you.... become the victim of racial profiling, if you discover your telephone conversations have been recorded, if you feel you are paying too much at the gas tank, if it angers you that the divide between church and state is slowly being patched up, or that not everyone in this country has the right to get married, or even the hypocrisy behind giant companies like walmart that speak out against illegal immigration, but then hire those same workers for pennies a day to do grueling work in inhumane conditions. You can't get pissed off if the hogs in office are rich white men with more houses than they know what to do with, and are completely out of touch with the plight of the very average american who has two or more jobs. It's a crappy world out there, and it's only getting crappier. Those 'hogs' are HOPING that people are either lazy or disenchanted enough not to vote, so that things will go on as before.... 'business as usual' would be fine with them....

 

College B, you said that "Voting gives the government and the parties a sort of validation to take charge and pursue their own interests."

Well, sure. A party is never going to line up with what we as individuals think, but one party or another is going to be in office next year. Do you want more of the same, or the possibility of something better? Even if it simply means your tax dollars might get redistributed towards something you believe a little more in.....

 

"Thats why i'm not going to do it. I'm a grown-up I don't need leaders, especially ones who want to force me and other adults to live our lives and conduct our business in a manner politicians/leaders see as preferable."

Voting isn't about choosing a candidate to dictate our personal business and our lives. To me, it's about keeping government OUT of our lives. Voting in the name of equality and personal freedoms. Although it's true, sometimes your vote may not mean as much. If you are 'democratically minded' in New York, then that state can probably live without your vote. But if you are in a swing state, for the love of whomever you believe in, make yourself count! I certainly don't want to belittle anyone's views or make any enemies, but choosing complacency in the America of 2008, I feel, is ultimately a very childish act.

 

It's also an exciting time, Americans are waking up and looking past the surface and biased 6 o'clock news. That's a wonderful and exciting thing!! Together, one vote at a time (just as we are accomplishing with this forum---one vegan at a time) we can make a difference in our world.

[DaN]

Fair points mate.

 

If I was American, I would vote for Obama.

 

[VeganDeVil]

A friend just forwarded this to me..... I love it. I just donated.

 

-------------------------------------

Subject: Fwd: a brilliant idea for $10

 

Instead of us all sending around more emails about

how horrible she is, let's all make a donation to Planned Parenthood.

In Sarah Palin's name.

And here's the good part: when you make a donation to PP in her

name, they'll send her a card telling her that the donation has

been made in her honor. Here's the link to the Planned

Parenthood website:

 

https://secure.ga0.org/02/pp10000_inhonor

 

You'll need to fill in the address to let PP know where to send

the "in Sarah Palin's honor" card. I suggest you use the address

for the McCain campaign headquarters, which is:

 

McCain for President

1235 S. Clark Street

1st Floor

Arlington , VA 22202

 

PS make sure you use that link above or choose the pulldown of

Donate--Honorary or Memorial Donations, not the regular "Donate

Online"