Roe v. Wade makes campaign comeback

[veginator]

The Republicans want to re-classify when life begins...As of now life begins when the egg implants into the uterus...

 

Legally as well as in common vernacular, life begins at birth, doesn't it? It's true though, as you suggest farther down in your message, that part of what's at dispute between abortion rights and anti-choice forces is when life is said to begin, with abortion opponents claiming it starts at conception and seeking to have it legally defined that way.

 

But to me, the whole argument of those who want to outlaw abortion is based on bogus logic, at least in the way it's usually stated--abortion opponents say they're "pro-life." Yet, if someone were truly "pro-life," there's hardly anything that they could eat if they were actually following their own stated values. Consumption of most elements of a vegetarian diet, and obviously all consumption of meat, results in the end of some sort of life. Needless to say, the vast majority of those who want to outlaw abortion are not even vegetarians. They usually also favor such forms of killing as capital punishment and war. So much for being "pro-life."

[vegan4eva]

finaly inteligence is here how can you call yourself a vegan and support murder and slaughter you would all be furious if they were slaughtering pigles our calves by the millions yet you rejoice when people slaughter there own young. hypocrates. slaughter is never an option hitler killed 12 million innocent thanks to the suprem court america alone has supported the slaughter of 34 million innocent lives all for the sake of convenience. dont claim to be vegan if you support abortion those who do are just as guilty as the murdering hands of the docters that preform them. which makes me think kill an adult or a child you go to jail kill a child without cause and justify it suddenly your politicaly correct. now i understand some woman where rapped and thats there logic for it but evil dose not deserve evil rape is no excuse for abortion there are many familys who would die for children and yet you slaughter your no vegan if you support abortion. life is precious and you have no right to decide which life is wroth more.

STOP THE MADDNESS ABORTION MUST STOP

SUPPORT LIFE NOT DEATH

[veginator]

Again, if the key ethical issue in either being a vegan or being against abortion is that it's wrong to end a life, then how is killing plants to feed yourself justified? Obviously the issue of life itself can't be the main issue behind being vegan, since 1) most of the plant food we eat results in the death of a plant and 2) eating dairy products or eggs doesn't result in the death of the animal. The issue that most motivates people to become vegan is animal suffering, not ending of life. Sure, the fact that the animals' lives are usually prematurely ended when "meat" is produced is also an issue, but if that were the main thing, there would be no ethical basis for choosing a vegan diet over a vegetarian one.

 

Also, why is it any more right to claim that life begins at conception than to claim that it begins at some other point (e.g., birth, which is when it is conventionally claimed, not to mention legally defined, to begin)?

 

By the way, it would be easier to read what you write if you used periods and capitalization once in a while.

 

finaly inteligence is here how can you call yourself a vegan and support murder and slaughter you would all be furious if they were slaughtering pigles our calves by the millions yet you rejoice when people slaughter there own young. hypocrates. slaughter is never an option hitler killed 12 million innocent thanks to the suprem court america alone has supported the slaughter of 34 million innocent lives all for the sake of convenience. dont claim to be vegan if you support abortion those who do are just as guilty as the murdering hands of the docters that preform them. which makes me think kill an adult or a child you go to jail kill a child without cause and justify it suddenly your politicaly correct. now i understand some woman where rapped and thats there logic for it but evil dose not deserve evil rape is no excuse for abortion there are many familys who would die for children and yet you slaughter your no vegan if you support abortion. life is precious and you have no right to decide which life is wroth more.

STOP THE MADDNESS ABORTION MUST STOP

SUPPORT LIFE NOT DEATH

[VeganDeVil]

finaly inteligence is here how can you call yourself a vegan and support murder and slaughter you would all be furious if they were slaughtering pigles our calves by the millions yet you rejoice when people slaughter there own young. hypocrates. slaughter is never an option hitler killed 12 million innocent thanks to the suprem court america alone has supported the slaughter of 34 million innocent lives all for the sake of convenience. dont claim to be vegan if you support abortion those who do are just as guilty as the murdering hands of the docters that preform them. which makes me think kill an adult or a child you go to jail kill a child without cause and justify it suddenly your politicaly correct. now i understand some woman where rapped and thats there logic for it but evil dose not deserve evil rape is no excuse for abortion there are many familys who would die for children and yet you slaughter your no vegan if you support abortion. life is precious and you have no right to decide which life is wroth more.

STOP THE MADDNESS ABORTION MUST STOP

SUPPORT LIFE NOT DEATH

I do support life. I simply don't agree that the government has the right to indoctrinate childbirth. That is a personal matter, and it's awfully small minded of the government of a so-called 'democracy.' What's next... wire-tapping our phones? Oh wait...

 

I personally don't think I could ever have an abortion, it's not something I could ethically deal with. But I believe fervently in planned parenthood. In contraception, in educating young boys and girls about sexuality, and, ultimately, of the right to terminate if the mother thinks that is the best option for whatever reason.

 

I thought I'd post that bit about donating because I thought some fellow pro-choicers might find it to be an amusing, and pro-active way of fighting back.

 

My beliefs are my beliefs, and I live my life with compassion towards animals, the planet and my fellow beings. I don't appreciate the suggestion that my belief in an American's democratic right to do with their own body as they please takes away from my dedication to the Vegan movement.

 

If it's not something you believe in, don't do it. No one is asking you to.

[DaN]

finaly inteligence is here how can you call yourself a vegan and support murder and slaughter you would all be furious if they were slaughtering pigles our calves by the millions yet you rejoice when people slaughter there own young. hypocrates. slaughter is never an option hitler killed 12 million innocent thanks to the suprem court america alone has supported the slaughter of 34 million innocent lives all for the sake of convenience. dont claim to be vegan if you support abortion those who do are just as guilty as the murdering hands of the docters that preform them. which makes me think kill an adult or a child you go to jail kill a child without cause and justify it suddenly your politicaly correct. now i understand some woman where rapped and thats there logic for it but evil dose not deserve evil rape is no excuse for abortion there are many familys who would die for children and yet you slaughter your no vegan if you support abortion. life is precious and you have no right to decide which life is wroth more.

STOP THE MADDNESS ABORTION MUST STOP

SUPPORT LIFE NOT DEATH

 

Have you heard of full stops? They are a great way to end a sentence!

 

I dont think its your right to say that a woman who has been raped has to raise that child, because you dont believe in abortion.If you had ever been a victim of rape you would probably understand that.

Edited September 18, 2008 by DaN

[DaN]

of the right to terminate if the mother thinks that is the best option for whatever reason.

 

VegandeVil, I am wondering if you forgot to mention the fathers right, or if you dont believe he has any right?

[xjohanx]

Just to be clear on one thing. I hate abortions I think it is "murder" and it shows disrespect against life. I wish people would stop doing it, but I don't want a law banning people because I don't think that a ban is the sollution. Peoples moral just has to change.

 

I dont think its your right to say that a woman who has been raped has to raise that child, because you dont believe in abortion.If you had ever been a victim of rape you would probably understand that.

 

This is an extreme example that is often brought up when abortion is discussed, and it is an important one. The thing about it though is that for the fetus nothing is changed since it is just another baby in there. Does the baby loose its rights because his/hers father was a rapist?

I think that a society without abortions is something that we all want but we also realize just how far away this is (laws don't stop them, just moves them from a clinic to the street). Maybe it's just as far away as a society without rapists.

[DaN]

Johan wrote:

 

This is an extreme example that is often brought up when abortion is discussed, and it is an important one. The thing about it though is that for the fetus nothing is changed since it is just another baby in there. Does the baby loose its rights because his/hers father was a rapist?

I think that a society without abortions is something that we all want but we also realize just how far away this is (laws don't stop them, just moves them from a clinic to the street). Maybe it's just as far away as a society without rapists

 

Those are valid & true points.The fetus should not have less rights just because its father is a rapist.

 

Although it is argued that sexual aggression does have some basis in biological genetics.On that argument it could be said that the dna of a rapist should not be allowed to continue in the form of his child.

 

I am just pointing out the other side of the argument, that is not my personal belief.

 

Aside from rape based abortions, the other is unwanted pregnancies.This is even more complex.It seems naturally wrong to kill the fetus just because the parents didnt plan it or take proper contraceptive precautions.To allow the abortion kills the fetus which is morally wrong in most peoples opinions.Not allowing the abortion leads to other more complex issues though.Often if the parents have a child they do not want, then they resent the child & treat it badly.That child, having a lack of parental love can infact grow up to be an unbalanced person, who could in turn have a negative effect on society, including loss of life.

 

There are about 3,700, every DAY in the US. That equates to 1.37 MILLION per YEAR. Worldwide, there are approximately 46 MILLION per YEAR.

 

Only 1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest. 6% occurs because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child. 93% of all abortions, performed in the US, are for social reasons.

 

The other bad side effect of not allowing abortion is that the above figure of 46 million per year would equate to an extra 46 million people on earth.Strains on world resources would be significantly increased which leads in turn to more negative effects on society, including loss of life.

 

Again, just pointing out the other side of the argument, I personally am not 100% sure what my beliefs are on this complex issue.

[vegan4eva]

im just saying it seems afuly convenient for you to terminate the life of a child but soon as some one suggest the same of any other speices you get these peta loving freaks in a huff. life is life regardless of the type weather animal or human as a sympathetic human being i would hope you see this but my attepmts ae clearly useless o you got to love the liberal mind set which says the democrates said. . . there for it must be true.

abortion is a form of genocide. more have be killed in this genocide then during the holocost why you ask, beacuse its convenient and the mother dosent want it. be that the case mabey she sould stay off her back and keep her legs closed. sorry for the language but lets get real you can not justify murder regarless of the convenice.

[vegan4eva]

im just saying it seems afuly convenient for you to terminate the life of a child but soon as some one suggest the same of any other speices you get these peta loving freaks in a huff. life is life regardless of the type weather animal or human as a sympathetic human being i would hope you see this but my attepmts ae clearly useless o you got to love the liberal mind set which says the democrates said. . . there for it must be true.

abortion is a form of genocide. more have be killed in this genocide then during the holocost why you ask, beacuse its convenient and the mother dosent want it. be that the case mabey she sould stay off her back and keep her legs closed. sorry for the language but lets get real you can not justify murder regarless of the convenice.

[revolushuneyz]

The Republicans want to re-classify when life begins...As of now life begins when the egg implants into the uterus...The reclassification would reclassify the term when life begins to when the egg is fertilized. Birth control( the pill IUD ) works in two ways 1. preventing an egg from being released 2.Making the uterus a hostile place for the egg and therby a fertilized egg being discarded. This reclassification would make the pill and other forms of hormonal birth control forms of abortion.

 

This can block women's access to birth control and create more unwanted pregnancies and perhaps eventually make birth control illegal. It is not about reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies the religious conservatives just want thier agendas taken care of.

 

I agree everything should be done to avoid unwanted pregnancies included increased access to birth control and comprehensive sex education for teens and free counseling for young and unwed pregnant women to educate them on the alternatives to abortion. However making it illegal and perhaps in the future making birth control illegal is blurring the lines between church and state and imposing someones moral beliefs on the united states. If this right goes away they will just go after more and more until we are being taught intelligent design in a classroom and stem cell research has gone to a halt.

 

I went off on a tangent but you get the idea...there was a time when church and state were one...it was called the Dark Ages.....

 

Emmybear, really good points. My mom is the head of a provincial abortion rights council and she says when talking the legality of abortion, your first points (on classification) are the most important. We have a tendency to talk ad-noseum about this issue. The morning after pill is an ideal solution to ensuring access (if it were affordable and over-the-counter). As mom was saying, the "morning after pill" was able to become offered without prescription with little to no valid legal argument from anti-abortionists because it effectively works in the way you describe. It circumvents to arguments relating to "murder". When you can legally circumnavigate emotional/moral arguments, it doesn't matter who is in power.

 

The attempt to reclassify abortion or aspects relating to abortion is a very serious issue. In Canada, they're working on passing bill C-484, which will include pregnant women in the list of circumstances when a judge can increase the sentence/punishment of a person charged with assault. It is a very subtle inclusion of a "fetus" as a secondary person (being attacked).

 

These small changes go almost unnoticed for a long time, then progressively become the norm, then you are suddenly hit with abotion laws be re-opened full steam that are supported by precedents.

[xjohanx]

I agree with vegan4eva, ladies who aren't ready to have a baby should keep legs closed and men who are not ready to become fathers shouldn't fuck around.

[veganmomma]

I agree with vegan4eva, ladies who aren't ready to have a baby should keep legs closed and men who are not ready to become fathers shouldn't fuck around.

That was blunt.

[xjohanx]

thanks for the info

[VeganDeVil]

I agree with vegan4eva, ladies who aren't ready to have a baby should keep legs closed and men who are not ready to become fathers shouldn't fuck around.

Are you advocating a 'no sex until ready to parent' policy?

 

Are you then against condoms and birth control as well?

[VeganDeVil]

of the right to terminate if the mother thinks that is the best option for whatever reason.

 

VegandeVil, I am wondering if you forgot to mention the fathers right, or if you dont believe he has any right?

Dan,

 

This is a tricky line to walk.... because of course a father should have a say in something he helped create. But something like this topic really does have to be discussed case by case, which the federal government can't oversee. They can't sit down with every unsure couple to discuss what everyone's rights are. There are too many scenarios.... people who are in relationships, but aren't sure it's forever, high school kids, even settled, married couples who know they want to have children but can't realistically afford to raise one just yet. My boyfriend and I can't wait to have children. But we're residing in a studio apartment in a bad neighborhood, living paycheck to paycheck. That's no situation to bring another life into. Our hope is to 'work towards' a child. Better jobs, better apartment, and some kind of savings account.

 

So, yes, a father should absolutely have a say, but it really is the kind of thing that has to be evaluated case by case. One would hope the father's voice would be heard. And further hope that if there is at least one parent who wants to raise the child, then the pregnancy would be carried through. But in the end, it is the mother who has to carry the baby for 9 long months and endure days of painful childbirth. Personally, I'm scared sh*tless of it!

 

Anyway, just my two cents. This is such a bitterly divisive topic, I think I'm done arguing it! I just don't understand when people in a democracy want to take away each other's rights based on their own personal views. If it's not something you believe in, don't do it. I don't believe in eating meat, so I don't. I don't believe in certain politics, so I vote the other way. If I don't follow such and such a religion, that doesn't mean I think NO one should go to that church. Democracy, people!

[xjohanx]

I agree with vegan4eva, ladies who aren't ready to have a baby should keep legs closed and men who are not ready to become fathers shouldn't fuck around.

Are you advocating a 'no sex until ready to parent' policy?

 

Are you then against condoms and birth control as well?

 

1. I don't know if I would call it a policy, I would call it common sense. Abortion is used like many surgeries and medications, it prevents people from taking responsibility for their own actions. If you start having sex you should be prepared for what could happen. If you get pregnant but are not ready to take care of a child, put it up for adoption.

 

2.No I'm not against the use of it in this question. However since most of them are non vegan I don't like them but my girlfriend has some weird thing in her bagingo that keeps her from getting pregnant. I do however oppose those morning after pills because I'm one of those "whackos" who believe that life starts at conception.

[VeganDeVil]

bagingo

That's a new one!

[vegan4eva]

as for dark ages the actuality was the state felt it had complete oversay thus silienting the churches voice. abortion has nothing to do with religion it has to do when common sense life begins during conception science shows this as the cells multiply. many people(particulary vegans) claim to be against the innocent slaughter of another creature for conveniece granted it may be an unplanned pregnacy but there is no such thing as an accidental pregnacy each lifer has potential to affect the world in great ways lets go back if MLK's mother had savegly slaughtered her unborn child we may still be segragated. to abort is to say the child wasnt planned and therefor has no right to life. all have the right to life abortion is murder justified murder according to law but murder nevertheless. these atrocities must end all who claim to be vegan and support slaughter of any form are no better then those who smash in the heads of "unwanted piglet" i thank you for your imput but if your going to try to use historical times such as the dark ages do a little research the goverment claimed to be one with the church but usd it to kill thosands the goverments of the day were evil trying to use the umbrella of religion as a canopy and a base to stand on.

thanks or your time

God bless you all

grace and peace be with you

[vegan4eva]

to put it blunt if people are not ready to get pregnant and start a family simply put DONT HAVE SEX saves you the hastle

[VeganDeVil]

The real question here is not so much what any of us believes is right or wrong..... but can we recognize another person's right to decide what to do with their own life and body? In regards to anything, not even necessarily abortion?

 

Isn't that what democracy and freedom are all about? Isn't that what we stand for? The right to choose our own paths?

 

Can't we recognize that some issues are completely wrong for us, but possibly might be right for others?

 

And that simply because one of us might have one empassioned viewpoint, that the whole world shouldn't have to live solely by it?

 

Choice is freedom, choice is democracy.

[xjohanx]

I always thought that freedom was the right to do whatever you want as long as it didn't conflict with anyone elses freedom (in this case that would be the babys).

[revolushuneyz]

"Abortion is used like many surgeries and medications, it prevents people from taking responsibility for their own actions."

 

This is in fact a myth. I went to a conference on sexuality and women a couple year's ago and the morning after pill was a hot topic, and the use of abortion as bc came up. I don't have the studies with me (so I won't berade the facts of the argument), but less than 50% of abortions result from lack of use of contraception (so more than 50% of abortions results from the failure of contraception). And, for example, in New York, the rate of repeats is only at 4% (so that's 4% of women who have abortions get repeats) and that does not mean that those 4% are using it as bc (though it would statistically be the most reliable marker). But 4% of the abortion-getting female population doesn't even come close to qualifying as "women using abortions as bc". But as I said, I don't have the stats, so I will make my argument based on common sense.

 

In Canada, getting an abortion can cost up to $500 (though most are free). Wait times are up to 3 months (but generally 1.5 months). Getting an abortion is an invasive procedure that includes pain, spotting, clotting, and no sex for weeks afterwards, it is a surgery, so to speak. Getting an abortion also generally requires counselling of some sort.

 

In addition, abortions are not accessible in all areas of Canada. Although the majority of Canadians live in urban settings, abortions can be extremely inaccessible in rural regions (affecting 30% of the Canadian population). So until aobrtions are widely accessible, it will remain a primarily "urban" surgery. Also, getting an abortion (secretly) requires availability for the procedure (if you're doing it secretly, that could be difficult) and a safe space to recover (even a great task). There are also social/religious pressures to contend with.

 

This "form" of "bc" is in opposition to say: putting a condom on, using pill, IUD or the morning after pill. Although no all women are intelligent, the realities of each option generally suggest that abortion will not become a form of bc.

 

As well, xjohanx, just to clarify, the morning after pill does not cause an abortion, it prevents conception. It ensures that conception does not happen (it is actually just a really strong dose of the Pill). So while you are welcome to be against the morning after pill for whatever reason you like, your reasoning is factually incorrect.

[Aaron]

I thought it affected implantation... ? My bad?

[veginator]

Although I agree that whether women should be able to decide what happens with their own bodies is a very important question, I have to disagree with your statement that what we believe is right or wrong about abortion is not a "real question." If we're talking about animal rights, isn't whether or not the animal has a right to live out its natural life and be free from human-imposed suffering just as "real" (important) a question as whether or not people should be able to decide for themselves whether to eat meat? In the case of animal rights, I imagine the response of the majority of us would be 1) "Hell yes, the first one is a real question!" and 2) "Yes, since the vast majority of people still don't agree with us that eating meat is wrong, we need to persuade them that it's wrong rather than trying to force them not to eat it. Otherwise, we'd have a civil war on our hands, and we'd lose! BUT it's still wrong to eat meat. In fact, it's murder!"

 

I'm in favor of abortion rights personally, and I think it's not good strategy on the part of abortion rights advocates to consider whether women should have this right the only important question. I think it's really problematic to only challenge this one aspect of how those who would outlaw abortion are framing the abortion question. We wind up talking past each other--e.g., one side says "it should be a woman's choice" and the other side says "it's a 'child' , not a choice"--and it's abortion opponents who are engaging with the other side's argument! (Actually, it's an embryo, fetus, or zygote, not a child, but that's another topic.) Abortion rights advocates are essentially saying "The fact that you believe it's murder is irrelevant," rather than challenging the premise that abortion, even right after conception and even if the conception is the result of rape, is the same thing as murder.

 

And I DO challenge the premise that abortion is the same thing as murder. I think the problem with the premise is a mushy definition of what "murder" is: people who want to outlaw abortion seem to simply define "murder" as "ending a life." But that's pretty clearly NOT what murder is. If murder were simply taking a life, then all of us (except the fruitarians, I guess) are murderers in spite of being vegans, because we kill plants.

 

So, yes, it's important to discuss the issue of abortion from the perspective of a woman's right not to be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, especially when she was raped. BUT it's just as important to discuss how the ethics behind our being vegan does or doesn't relate to the ethics behind our views on abortion.

 

So, why (in terms of ethics) are we vegan? Surely the major reason is that we believe in animal rights. NOT "plant rights," animal rights. We're not simply against the taking of a life, we're against the taking of animals' lives. We're also against causing them emotional pain or suffering. Plants cannot suffer, nor can they fear and resist losing their life, because they don't have a nervous system. So "murder" is not "taking a life," it's "taking the life of something with a nervous system capable of experiencing fear or pain." Since no nervous system whatsoever exists at conception, therefore it can't possibly be murder to terminate a pregnancy at conception.

 

There isn't much of a nervous system for at least a month after conception. There is considerable debate among scientists as to when the perception of pain becomes possible. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain2.htm for some quotes. All of the researchers quoted there give the time frame as 12 weeks into pregnancy or later. Only after whatever that point is does it make sense to start calling abortion "murder." Not at conception, and not for several weeks thereafter, does it make any sense to label abortion this way.

 

 

 

The real question here is not so much what any of us believes is right or wrong..... but can we recognize another person's right to decide what to do with their own life and body? In regards to anything, not even necessarily abortion?

 

Isn't that what democracy and freedom are all about? Isn't that what we stand for? The right to choose our own paths?

 

Can't we recognize that some issues are completely wrong for us, but possibly might be right for others?

 

And that simply because one of us might have one empassioned viewpoint, that the whole world shouldn't have to live solely by it?

 

Choice is freedom, choice is democracy.