New Vegan, 2 Questions

[nou]

1. What is a good alternative to fish oil other than flax?

 

2. What is a good protein powder? I've been using Designer Whey.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

edit; third question added

 

3. What are your guys' thoughts on post workout meals? If you're eating 6 meals a day every few hours, is a PWO meal necessary to recover?

Edited September 19, 2008 by nou

[GreenMachine]

Whats wrong with Flax?

 

And there are alot of Vegan protein powders. Pea protein, hemp protein, soy protein. Just look around.

[DV]

I assume that you are looking for an oil that gives you the different omega 3 fatty acids, such as the ALA, EPA and DHA found in fish. There is no plant oil that contains EPA and DHA as they are found in microalgae in oceans. Flax only contains the short chain ALA. Spectrum brand has a flax oil with DHA added. There are a couple of companies that sell the long chain DHA (such as http://www.veganessentials.com or http://www.foodfightgrocery.com) in supplement form. The only supplement that contains both long chain omega 3s, EPA and DHA, is found at http://www.water4.net. It is much cheaper to order direct from the company than to order from anyone else.

 

You may see other oils out there that advertise a balanced omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid ratio. They are a waste of your money since you get more than enough omega 6 fatty acids. If you cannot/will not take flax oil then other options are canola oil or walnut oil. Both contain more omega 6 than 3 fatty acids, however. IMO, if you have the money then supplement with the http://www.water4.net product and eat 2 tablespoons of ground flax seed per day, while decreasing your overall fat intake by avoiding processed foods and added oils.

 

As for protein powders, I'm not a fan for unless you are using them very short term - like the few weeks before a competition. Someone else can answer that question.

 

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[SeaSiren]

1. http://www.vegsoc.org/info/omega3.html

 

2. Many, many, I'm partial to sunwarrior:

http://www.denisenicole.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=DNE/CTGY/S

 

3. I use one of the six meals as my PWO meal

[RawVgn]

IMO (obviously) supplements are a waste of money; eat only the right things to begin with and you'll achieve better long term health. Health isn't so much about what you put in your body as what you don't pollute it with so it's inate excellence can shine through. Don't imagine for a moment that all our little chemical inventions can improve on nature's genious and millions of years of evolutionary design and building. Read Douglas Graham's book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and start getting a feel for just how far we have strayed from nature's plan for us, and how we can optimize our health all naturally without synthetic junk.

[GRardB]

IMO (obviously) supplements are a waste of money; eat only the right things to begin with and you'll achieve better long term health. Health isn't so much about what you put in your body as what you don't pollute it with so it's inate excellence can shine through. Don't imagine for a moment that all our little chemical inventions can improve on nature's genious and millions of years of evolutionary design and building. Read Douglas Graham's book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and start getting a feel for just how far we have strayed from nature's plan for us, and how we can optimize our health all naturally without synthetic junk.

 

I second this. Everything you need is in the food you eat (assuming it's the right food). Otherwise, our ancestors in the wild would've died out extremely quickly without their multi-vitamins, protein powders, omega-3 pills, creatine, etc.

 

Also, protein/fat needs are pretty low, even when it comes to building muscle. Don't listen to the dairy/meat industry lies.

[GreenMachine]

IMO (obviously) supplements are a waste of money; eat only the right things to begin with and you'll achieve better long term health. Health isn't so much about what you put in your body as what you don't pollute it with so it's inate excellence can shine through. Don't imagine for a moment that all our little chemical inventions can improve on nature's genious and millions of years of evolutionary design and building. Read Douglas Graham's book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and start getting a feel for just how far we have strayed from nature's plan for us, and how we can optimize our health all naturally without synthetic junk.

 

I second this. Everything you need is in the food you eat (assuming it's the right food). Otherwise, our ancestors in the wild would've died out extremely quickly without their multi-vitamins, protein powders, omega-3 pills, creatine, etc.

 

Also, protein/fat needs are pretty low, even when it comes to building muscle. Don't listen to the dairy/meat industry lies.

 

Our ancestors ate meat and so got there omega 3s, b12s, proteins, creatines etc

 

were the new age radicals who are choosing compassionate diets at the expense of what I lsited and so we need mutlivitamins, omega 3 pills but protein and creatine poweders arent neccesery unless you really need to build big muscle.

[GRardB]

IMO (obviously) supplements are a waste of money; eat only the right things to begin with and you'll achieve better long term health. Health isn't so much about what you put in your body as what you don't pollute it with so it's inate excellence can shine through. Don't imagine for a moment that all our little chemical inventions can improve on nature's genious and millions of years of evolutionary design and building. Read Douglas Graham's book "The 80/10/10 Diet" and start getting a feel for just how far we have strayed from nature's plan for us, and how we can optimize our health all naturally without synthetic junk.

 

I second this. Everything you need is in the food you eat (assuming it's the right food). Otherwise, our ancestors in the wild would've died out extremely quickly without their multi-vitamins, protein powders, omega-3 pills, creatine, etc.

 

Also, protein/fat needs are pretty low, even when it comes to building muscle. Don't listen to the dairy/meat industry lies.

 

Our ancestors ate meat and so got there omega 3s, b12s, proteins, creatines etc

 

were the new age radicals who are choosing compassionate diets at the expense of what I lsited and so we need mutlivitamins, omega 3 pills but protein and creatine poweders arent neccesery unless you really need to build big muscle.

 

Not true. The first humans probably didn't eat meat. It's not our instinct to know how to make spears, swords, or any other hunting weapon. Our bodies are not capable of hunting many animals without any kind of weapon, and our anatomy is that of a herbivore. The China Study shows that humans are healthier on a vegan diet, so why would we be omnivores? It makes no sense. My personal, logical belief is that humans can digest meat only for survival needs, if abundant vegetation isn't accessible. I don't believe it's healthy at all for those who have sufficient plant foods.

 

Omega-3's are found in plant sources, and I believe they're overrated. They seem to be "in" right now because they're a relatively new discovery (I believe?), and people are now obsessing over getting it.

 

B-12 is created by bacteria that grows on plants. How would meat (pigs, cows, chickens) get B-12 if it wasn't in the food they ate (especially cows, which are herbivores)? It's in plants, but our vegetables and fruits are washed so much that the B-12/bacteria is washed off the plants. Fortified foods give you more than enough B-12 in today's world (1 cup of Silk's soy milk contains 50% of the DV).

 

I believe that everything you need is in the food you eat. Creatine certainly helps, but so do steroids. It's produced in our bodies already, and that's all we should get in my opinion. Protein is overrated and is found in most foods. Supplementation is unnecessary.

[DV]

The real issue with omega 3 fatty acids is not that we need so much more of them, but that they've been replaced in our diet by an overabundance of omega 6 fatty acids. Even omnis who get most of their fat sources from farmed animals (fish, beef, eggs) are at a loss because the diets those animals are fed result in fat that has much less omega 3 fatty acids than in the past and many more omega 6 fatty acids. We do need both 3 and 6 omega fatty acids but the amounts are small and the balance of the two are very important. This topic has been discussed in great detail on this forum in the past so I'll stop here.

 

As for the first humans being omnivores, carnivores or herbivores, I believe that we can only theorize on this. The best theory I've ever heard is that humans have a great capacity to survive on plant and animal sources. Just as vultures don't need spears to eat meat, neither did early humans if they waited around with other smaller animals after a kill. Regardless of what we consider to be a healthy diet, a hungry or starving human is fortunate to be able to adapt to numerous diets.

[RawVgn]

Heart disease and cancer are not very effective adaptations-both closely linked to eating animals. Humans, like all the other anthropoid primates, are herbivores: our genes , anatomy, physiology, and empirical epidemiology all prove it. Try to kill and eat a deer without tools of any kind-no fire or heat, no guns or spears or knives, no anything, just your hands and mouth. And if by some bizarre means you do succeed for an hour or two, without getting deathly sick from the mess, try repeating it everyday year in and year out! We evolved eating raw fruit and green leafy veggies and some occasional nuts; try eating just these natural foods for a few weeks and watch how your health and vigor soar. Like most animals in nature, we occupy a pretty narrow evolutionary food nitch: lions eat meat, cows eat grass, and anthropoids, like humans, eat "fruit and shoots."

[GRardB]

Heart disease and cancer are not very effective adaptations-both closely linked to eating animals. Humans, like all the other anthropoid primates, are herbivores: our genes , anatomy, physiology, and empirical epidemiology all prove it. Try to kill and eat a deer without tools of any kind-no fire or heat, no guns or spears or knives, no anything, just your hands and mouth. And if by some bizarre means you do succeed for an hour or two, without getting deathly sick from the mess, try repeating it everyday year in and year out! We evolved eating raw fruit and green leafy veggies and some occasional nuts; try eating just these natural foods for a few weeks and watch how your health and vigor soar. Like most animals in nature, we occupy a pretty narrow evolutionary food nitch: lions eat meat, cows eat grass, and anthropoids, like humans, eat "fruit and shoots."

 

I'm not a raw foodist, but I agree 100%. I couldn't have said it better

[Im Your Man]

 

Our ancestors ate meat and so got there omega 3s, b12s, proteins, creatines etc

 

were the new age radicals who are choosing compassionate diets at the expense of what I lsited and so we need mutlivitamins, omega 3 pills but protein and creatine poweders arent neccesery unless you really need to build big muscle.

Yeah like RawVgn and GRardB explained it very well, a plant-based diet is optimum. A vegan diet is not new, and it certainly contain more omega-3 and vitamins than in meat. There's many things we don't want in meat, like all the toxins accumulated along the food chain, while plant-based foods are at the bottom of the food chain and contain everything essential to life : enzymes, vitamins, minerals, oligo-elements, oxygen, chlorophill, etc. The carnivores depend on the vegetarians and plants. I like how it explains the food chain:

Some dinosaurs were carnivores (meat-eaters)(35%) but most were herbivores (plant-eaters) (65%). In any food chain, there have to be more organisms at the lower levels of the chain because the transfer of food energy is inefficient and much of the energy is lost at each stage of the process.

www.enchantedlearning.com

[DV]

Just remember that you cannot compare gorillas, monkeys and chimpanzees to humans. I am SOOOOO tired of these comparisons in these types of discussions. And I'm sure that there are those out there who do not understand the anatomical/physiological differences between us who will think I'm being too dogmatic. But if some of us don't represent the more "rational" arguments for veganism, who will stand up for us in the real (ie, not forum) world? Just asking......

[GRardB]

Just remember that you cannot compare gorillas, monkeys and chimpanzees to humans. I am SOOOOO tired of these comparisons in these types of discussions. And I'm sure that there are those out there who do not understand the anatomical/physiological differences between us who will think I'm being too dogmatic. But if some of us don't represent the more "rational" arguments for veganism, who will stand up for us in the real (ie, not forum) world? Just asking......

 

What do you mean by more "rational" arguments for veganism? I don't see how animal rights is more rational than the argument that humans are herbivores.

 

If eating an omnivore diet was truly better than a vegan diet because humans were meant to eat like that, then to me, veganism would be an ignorant choice. I think the best thing about veganism is not saving animals, but the health that comes with it. It's the way humans were meant to eat.

 

I don't mean to say animal rights aren't important. But if humans were truly meant to eat animals, I wouldn't think it's wrong to kill them for food, I think that since we aren't SUPPOSED to eat them, and it harms us, it is extremely cruel to kill animals. It's like walking down the street and shooting a human that will never affect your life, although the murder would affect your life in terrible ways.

 

Just saying...

[DV]

There is NO proof that veganism is the way humans were meant to eat. Even the China Study has no vegans, only humans who eat little animal foods. Veganism is a fabulous choice that wealthy humans can consider, but it has not been studied in much detail in history since there have been no recent wealthy humans who could choose to eat plant foods at will (ohhh, asparagus in December and sweet potatoes in April, oh my!). I freely choose veganism even though there is no proof that humans evolved to eat vegan. But that does not make it "natural" even if it does make it an intelligent choice.

[RAINRA]

If you have not watch this clip yet it will help explain lot of these arguements.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1549763175867837730&ei=qfzVSMHUCoa6rgK0r5DYAg&q=vegsource&hl=en

 

Lot of people come to veganism through different means. Not everything can be 100 fact. Just there more cases and so on that favor a plant based diet. My sister said oh my friends grandfather is 90 and he ate cheese his whole life. I was like great but imagine how much longer he could live if he had not even that extra heart clogging fat. Plus there are always people who break the norm. Not in the case for most people.

 

I studied nutrition two years. Listening to nutrition podcast every day 8 hours for the last two years. Including sitting through Berkley's nutrition lectures. I started trying to eat whey shakes and bulking and I ended up after doing more and more research as a Vegan. That should say something about the evidence. More fruits and veggies less or no meat and dairy. China study is just a small part in the evidence for optimal health. No animals is us. We still can look for hints or ideas of how they live and how it may be similar to our way. Yet we got job stress environmental pollution and so on which also pay a toll on our health as well.

 

Plus I think all aspects of veganism are important not just one. I came in through health and now feel strong about animals and I get upset for the mention of animals as food.

 

 

Everyone has

all good points if you ask me.

[VegannNY]

Just to throw out a few answers to Nou:

 

1) In addition to flax, isn't hemp oil an option for alternative EFA's?

 

2) Re: protein powder...just as an FYI, designer whey isn't vegan (IE: the dairy) - but there are vegan protein powders available such as Nitrofusion (have some, tastes okay in chocolate) and Gemma Powder (haven't tried it, but it gets good reviews.) There are tons of other options, too, from Soy or Rice Protein to several brands of raw food powders like Vega.

 

Got to admit, I've yet to see amazing results from any protein powder I've tried - either now, or in my omni days. But maybe that's just me, or I haven't found the right brand yet...

[GreenMachine]

Dont alot of the 'Vegetarian' Animals also consume insects though? So thats where they get there B12. A cow chewing on grass all day is probably eating a few ants as are apes.

 

So unless your eating insects you better take that b12 supplement!

[RawVgn]

B12 is made by bacteria in the soil; if you ate like the rest of the anthropoids, our primate family, directly from nature with soil residue still on your fruit and greens, you would get adequate B12. All animal sget B12 from the soil just like plants are the only original source of protein: animals don't make it.

 

There is massive evidence that humans are herbivores; many of us believe it is overwhelmingly conclusive which is why we eat vegan. If I believed I was inately omnivorous, like a cat is inately carnivorous, then it would be ethically necessary for me to eat animal products: if I was a biological omnivore then that's the only way I could be healthy. Nature dictates the proper diet for each species, based on the ecological niche they evolved in. We evolved in tropical forests on fruit and nuts and shoots. We are more than 98% genetically identical to bonobos and definitely have a recent common ancestor; bonobos eat fruit and shoots, just like chimps, orangatains, gorillas and the other members of our primate family. That some of our primate relatives very rarely eat minute amounts of animal products, usually when under severe habitat and food stress, does not change this fundamental fact of our nature. Of course, there are many additional lines of evidence, which I previously alluded to, which support the human herbivore theory.

 

Finally, even a health vegan like myself can be an ethical vegan: I don't hunt or fish for entertainment, I don't buy leather products, or any other products that contain animals, and so on. To me, it is simply a coincidence of nature that my natural diet does not include animals, and I am deeply grateful to occupy such a potentially benign niche.

[beforewisdom]

Information about vitamin b-12 by a registered dietitian who is a vegan

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10882

[GRardB]

B12 is made by bacteria in the soil; if you ate like the rest of the anthropoids, our primate family, directly from nature with soil residue still on your fruit and greens, you would get adequate B12. All animal sget B12 from the soil just like plants are the only original source of protein: animals don't make it.

 

Exactly. B12 does not come from insects -_-. http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html

 

Very few plant foods provide good sources of B12, they say. In a way that's true, but only because the source of B12 is not plants OR animals; neither manufacture their own B12. In the B12 reality, Bacteria are the B12 producers on which both plants and animals rely.

 

 

There is massive evidence that humans are herbivores; many of us believe it is overwhelmingly conclusive which is why we eat vegan. If I believed I was inately omnivorous, like a cat is inately carnivorous, then it would be ethically necessary for me to eat animal products: if I was a biological omnivore then that's the only way I could be healthy. Nature dictates the proper diet for each species, based on the ecological niche they evolved in. We evolved in tropical forests on fruit and nuts and shoots. We are more than 98% genetically identical to bonobos and definitely have a recent common ancestor; bonobos eat fruit and shoots, just like chimps, orangatains, gorillas and the other members of our primate family. That some of our primate relatives very rarely eat minute amounts of animal products, usually when under severe habitat and food stress, does not change this fundamental fact of our nature. Of course, there are many additional lines of evidence, which I previously alluded to, which support the human herbivore theory.

 

+1. This guy is the man ^^^

 

I guess I never really answered nou's questions, so here I go *gulp*

 

1.) Hemp is considered the best source of omega-3/omega-6 because of it's ratio (I believe?)

2.) Hemp protein is supposed to be great, but if you're looking for pure/cheap protein, gemma or rice are probably the best.

 

Still, I think we shouldn't stress over fats, and once my container of protein is finished, I won't be getting any more after what I've watched/read about the growth hormone stuff (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14311).

 

Cheers

[RawVgn]

Thanks everyone for debating so civilly; I love VEGANS!

[Aaron]

(ohhh, asparagus in December and sweet potatoes in April, oh my!)

 

Good call.

[Im Your Man]

DV, what's wrong with comparing our anatomy with other animals, don't you know we're animals too? We're surely not pure spirits, otherwise we wouldn't need to eat or to go to the bathroom. I don't mean we should compare our bodies with those of fish or microbes, but we're primates. Our physiology is very similar to some apes.

[veggieprincess]

1. What is a good alternative to fish oil other than flax?

 

2. What is a good protein powder? I've been using Designer Whey.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

edit; third question added

 

3. What are your guys' thoughts on post workout meals? If you're eating 6 meals a day every few hours, is a PWO meal necessary to recover?

 

1) I think it's good to get a variety in. Flax Seed, Udo's, Hemp, Safflower... a little of everything

 

2) Nitrofusion, Vega, Procore Advance, Gemma Pea Protein... just google some of these names and you'll find bunches

 

3) I don't get hung up on post and pre workout meals. I just try to eat within 45 minutes of a workout and then get something in 30 - 45 minutes prior that has a balance of Protein, Carbs and good fats