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Asking someone to prove raw veganism is like asking them to prove evolution: there are entire bookshelves of evidence. It would take me a year to rewrite all the evidence that is already documented. So proving , in a forum like this, consists of refering to books, articles, and links that a sincerely interested person then must make the considerable effort to read . I have repeatedly referred to these sources in my many posts. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

 

So I'll say a few of them again, for the ten biollionth time:

 

The 80/10/10 Diet by Dr Douglas Graham

Many books by Dr Herbert Sheldon

rawfoodexplained.com

"White Tide" is standard text book digestive physiology

and on and on and on...

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There's enough for endurance athletes. For bodybuilders, I guess not. Of course that is only since you are asking about the sweet, juicy flesh of fruits.

Nuts are fruits and seeds are part of fruits. Fruitarians (frugivores), do eat other things. It's just that fruits are predominant.

You said it yourself that nuts and seeds contain lots of protein, and yet they're fruits themselves. So, what exactly is the point of this thread? It's more hypothetical than practical or scientific, since by a scientific definition, fruits can have lots of protein(seeds and nuts).

 

For example, the protein amount in a watermelon can change if you also include eating the seeds http://www.peertrainer.com/DFcaloriecounterB.aspx?id=3360

1 cup has 31 grams of protein

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There's enough for endurance athletes. For bodybuilders, I guess not. Of course that is only since you are asking about the sweet, juicy flesh of fruits.

Nuts are fruits and seeds are part of fruits. Fruitarians (frugivores), do eat other things. It's just that fruits are predominant.

You said it yourself that nuts and seeds contain lots of protein, and yet they're fruits themselves. So, what exactly is the point of this thread? It's more hypothetical than practical or scientific, since by a scientific definition, fruits can have lots of protein(seeds and nuts).

 

For example, the protein amount in a watermelon can change if you also include eating the seeds http://www.peertrainer.com/DFcaloriecounterB.aspx?id=3360

1 cup has 31 grams of protein

 

From My experience a lot of Fruitarians Don't eat nuts and seeds.

If they do, they tend to call themselves Raw Vegans.

 

That's an interesting point about watermelons, I always eat the seeds anyway...

This is the sort of thing I'm looking for, keep going with this sort of stuff, give me more, give me more!!!!!

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Cool, I eat mountains of watermelon and had no idea the seeds are full of protein; no more throwing them away.

 

So a Fruitarian only eats fruit including nuts and seeds (which are fruits). A Frugivore, like me, eats only fruit and green leafy veggies. Both are raw vegans-and there are also many other types of raw vegans.

 

I definitely avg under 10% protein in my diet. I'm more of a fitness buff than a bodybuilder though weight lifting is my favorite sport. At 6-1 169 pounds, I can easily do the entire 305 pound stack a dozen times on the leg extension machine in my gym. I'm planning on building myself up over the next 6 months to 185 to 200 but don't want to go higher than that- I'm already bigger and stronger than most everyone I know except really hard core body builders; my strength already exceeds what I need for day-to-day living. So far, it's been very easy for me to put on muscle: in the 6 months I've been high-intensity lifting I've put on 13 pounds. That's half a pound a week!

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Just a thought on the water melon seeds.

Unless you bite them, then they tend to go through your digestive track whole (Speaking from personal experience)

this would tend to indicate you don't get anything from them... wouldn't it?

Ok, so we have Fruitarians and Frugivores...

Seeds aren't fruits - Ok here comes the Botany.

Here are some definitions for you from a Plant Taxonomy Point of view

 

Fruit - the reproductive body of a seed plant consisting of one or more seeds and usu. various protective and supporting structures

 

Seed - the fertilized and ripened ovule of a seed plant comprising a miniature plant usu. accompanied by a supply of food (as endospernm or perisperm), enclosed in a protective seed coat, often accompanied by auxiliary structures (as an aril or caruncle), a nd capable under suitable conditions of independent development into a plant similar to the one that produced it.

 

Berry - any simple fruit that has a fleshy pericarp (as the currant, grape, gooseberry, cranberry, tomato, or banana)

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I don't know why are people so against a raw food diet, think for a moment, humans can't make vitamin-c we have to get it trough food, and vitamin-c is destroyed over 40 celsius, and scientists prooved it how important is vitamin-c is, even in fighting cancer

 

Consequences of cooked food

 

* The body struggles for years to stay healthy, despite the fact we keep putting devitalised food into our mouths. When the body loses this struggle we begin to develop disease.

* Many childhood illnesses are not necessary and can be avoided if parents had only known the importance of eating vital foods, rich in natural enzymes.

* Enzymes are essential in building and maintaining health. Heating food to high temperatures destroys those living enzymes so they’re unable to function. (For more information click on enzymes).

* Cooking converts digestible food into a substance that is difficult to digest. No matter how hard our bodies try to break it down, we get very little value from cooked food.

* Cooked food places a constant strain on the human digestive system. Instead of the simple and efficient digestion that occurs with natural food.

* The body has to deal with food that has been turned into an alien substance. Toxaemia is the result and it invariably leads to a variety of illnesses and diseases.

* Cancer, arthritis, rheumatism, heart disease, obesity and most other non-genetic diseases are symptoms of toxaemia. However, this situation can be reversed if a raw food diet is followed.

* Disease is the result of trapped poisons in the tissue of the body. Trouble normally begins in the colon with an impaction of the tissue walls and a general clogging of the body’s waste elimination system.

* Corresponding poisons collected in the human organism stimulate the strong craving for addictive substances. Going without bread for a week is difficult for a cooked food eater but going without a banana is not. This happens because one is addictive and the other is not.

* Humans become addicted to substances that contain toxins such as cooked food, heated tea, coffee, tobacco and alcohol.

* When food is cooked in high temperatures, its protein becomes coagulated; its sugar becomes caramelised, it’s natural fibbers are broken down, which means it will take longer to move through the intestinal tract, 30% to 50% of its vitamins and minerals have been destroyed and 100% of its enzymes have been destroyed.

* When we treat foods with fire, we lose up to 97% of the water-soluble vitamins (vitamins B and C) and up to 40% of the lipid soluble vitamins (vitamins A, D, E and K).

* Cooking causes the inorganic elements to enter the blood, circulate through the system, settle in the arteries and veins and deaden the nerves.

* The body loses it’s flexibility, arteries lose their pliability, nerves lose the power of conveying impressions, the spinal cord becomes hardened, the tissue through out the body contract, and the human being becomes prematurely old.

* Matter is deposited in the various joints of the body, causing enlargement of the joints. In other cases, it accumulates in one or more of the internal organs, finally accumulating around the heart valves.

* Heating changes the lipids. Changed fats are incorporated into the cell wall and interfere with the respiration of the cell, causing an increase in cancer and heart disease.

* After eating cooked foods, the blood immediately shows an enormous increase of leukocytes of white blood cells. Corpuscles, the white blood cells are a first line of defence and called “the immune system”.

* This spontaneous multiplication of white corpuscles always take place in normal blood immediately after the introduction of any virulent infection or poison into the body since the white corpuscles are the fighting organisms of the blood.

* There is no multiplication of white corpuscles when uncooked food is eaten.

 

Water rich foods

 

* Drinking plenty of water is important for many reasons, it is what we are largely composed of and it is constantly evaporating through our skin. Water is nature’s best solvent.

* If enough water is not taken, constipation, headaches and intoxication-associated symptoms will be experienced.

* When a piece of bread is put into our mouth the body uses an incredible amount of energy to break it down, and rarely entirely succeeds in doing so. When fruit is eaten, this does not happen for the body digests it with ease.

* Water rich foods are important because they keep the body clean. They are digested quickly, and the water in them helps to flush toxins out of the body. If water rich foods are not abundant in a diet it must be compensated with drinking water. But in now days we know that drinking water is not reliable….

 

Intestinal clogging and constipation

 

*

 

Cooked food eventually leads to intestinal clogging and constipation and it also clogs and constipates the body on a cellular level.

*

 

When cooked starch is eaten, the body absorbs more than it needs. Getting rid of the excess starch then becomes another burden to the body.

*

 

Those who defend cooked foods often make the point that since the body cannot absorb raw starch, this is a sign the food should be cooked. Another way to look at it, however, is that the body absorbs just enough of the raw starch for its needs and then passes out the rest.

*

 

Cellulose – the woody, fibrous part of food- was previously believed to be unnecessary to the body. Because the body did not absorb it, it wasn’t considered important. Now people know that this fibber is what keeps things moving through our body so that we don’t become constipated.

*

 

Raw fibber has the ability to unclog the intestinal tract and keeps it clean. Cooked fibber has lost the ability to do this for us.

 

Dirty arteries

 

* Arteries are also clogged by cooked food. It has been demonstrated that saturated fats triggers the bad cholesterol of the body to rise, which leads to clogged arteries and eventually to heart disease but not all fats are bad for the human body.

* The fats found in avocados, olives, flax seeds and other nuts have been shown to reduce the amount of bad cholesterol in the body.

 

Cancer

 

* Another common cause of death and pain in the industrialized societies is cancer. Although a lot of research has been done over the years a solution has not yet been withdrawn.

* One thing that has been found is that cancer is strongly related to nutrition and lifestyle.

* On the other hand, it is in raw fruits and vegetables that we find the higher concentration of cancer fighting components, such as antioxidants like vitamin C. Many studies have shown that diets that include plenty of raw foods and vegetables are associated with a lower risk of cancer.

* Eating a diet of raw foods lowers cancer risks in two ways. By not ingesting most of the food substances that cause it and by eating the foods that help prevent it. (For further information click on Why should we eat raw foods?)

 

Stress

 

* Fast releasing sugars create a state of stress in the body, stimulating the release of cortisol. Slow releasing carbohydrates, on the other hand, provide energy.

 

Depression

 

*

 

There are many nutritional related causes of depression, the most common being bad nutrition habits resulting in poor mental and physical energy. Disturbed bloods sugar balance can result in periods of depression.

*

 

Adrenal exhaustion is usually brought on by stress and over-use of stimulants can have this effect.

 

Headaches

 

*

 

There are many causes of headaches and migraines, ranging from blood sugar drops, dehydration and allergy to stress and tension.

 

Caffeine

 

* Caffeine has a powerful effect on both mind and body. This drug is found in coffee and tea and in lesser amounts in chocolate, coca-cola and cola drinks.

* Excess caffeine can produce anxiety, mood swings, tremors, insomnia, abnormal heart rhythms, and sweating and weight loss. Hyperventilation sometimes accompanies these symptoms, producing breathlessness, chest pains, tingling in the toes and fingers, dizziness and fainting.

 

Sugar

 

* All forms of concentrated sugar – white sugar, brown sugar, malt glucose, honey and syrup are fast releasing, causing a rapid increase in bloods sugar levels.

* If this sugar is not required by the body it is put into storage and may emerge as fat. Most concentrated forms of sugar are also devoid of vitamins and minerals, unlike the natural sources such as Fruit.

* Fruit contains a simple sugar called fructose, which needs no digesting and can therefore enter the blood stream quickly like glucose or sucrose. However fruit is considered slow releasing. This is because the body cannot use fructose as it is, since cells only run on glucose. As a result the fructose first has to be converted by the body into glucose, which effectively slows down this sugar’s effect on the metabolism.

 

Bread

 

*

 

Bread is made of cereals, largely of denatured cereals, mixed with salt, soda, yeast, lard and often other ingredients and subjected to a high degree of temperature and then eaten three or four times a day in considerable quantities, mixed indiscriminately with all classes of foods and taken in addition to much other starch food. This exhausts the digesting system terribly.

 

Cooking takes time…

 

*

Cooking wastes preparation and clean up time as well as cooking fuel. Many hours are spent around the stove preparing meals as well as washing greasy dishes and pots in the sink….

 

Are Human beings vegetarian?…

 

The question has arisen, but there are not any conclusive answers because scientists have not yet reached an agreement….so read this article and withdraw your own conclusions…..

 

“ I am a stronger follower of veganism by principle, not just because of moral and aesthetic reasons. I truly believe in a vegetarian lifestyle and I have my faith and hopes in a change of human destiny, thanks to the physical effects and benefits of a healthier diet and its influence on the character of the people. It will bring about some benefit and improvement to human society.”

 

Albert Einstein

 

There are several theories about the correct nutrition system for human beings, some researches point out that man is omnivores, as other defend that man fed himself on plants and fruit, but some strongly defend that man was exclusively fruitarian, eating fruits, nuts and seeds...

 

Their studies are essentially based on the observation of our ancestors eating habits, the comparison of the digestive tract of animals and human beings as well as their teeth.

 

Carnivorous animals

 

Some researches explain that carnivorous animals, including the lion, dog, wolf, and cat, etc., have many unique characteristics, which set them apart from all other members of the animal kingdom. They have a very simple and short digestive system - only three times the length of their bodies. They tell us that this happens because flesh decays very rapidly, and the products of this decay quickly poison the bloodstream if they remain for a long time in the body. They affirm that a short digestive tract was evolved for rapid expulsion of putrefactive bacteria from decomposing flesh, as well as stomachs with ten times as much hydrochloric acid as non- carnivorous animals to digest fibrous tissue and bones. Carnivores do not transpire by their skins.

Vegetarian animals

 

They explain that vegetarian animals, such as the cow, horse, zebra, deer, spend much of their time in the sun gathering their food, and they freely perspire through their skin to cool their bodies. One of the most significant differences between the natural meat eaters and other animals is their teeth. Along with sharp claws, all meat eaters, since they have to kill mainly with their teeth, possess powerful jaws and pointed, elongated, “canine” teeth to pierce, to spear and tear flesh. They do not have molars (flat back teeth) which vegetarian animals need for grinding their food. Unlike grains, flesh does not need to be chewed in the mouth to predigest it; it is digested mostly in the stomach and the intestines.

 

Fruitarian animals

 

They say that fruit eaters include mainly the anthropoid apes, humanity’s immediate animal ancestors. They explain that the diet of these apes consists mostly of fruits and nuts. Their skin has millions of pores for sweating and they also have molars to grind and chew their food; their saliva is alkaline, and like the grass – and leaf eaters, it contains ptyalin to predigest food. Their intestines are extremely convoluted and are twelve times the length of their body, for the slow digestion of fruits and vegetables.

 

Human characteristics

 

Some researches strongly believe that human characteristics are in every way like the fruit eaters, very similar to the grass –eater, and very unlike the meat eaters: The human digestive system, tooth and jaw structure, and bodily functions are completely different from carnivorous animals. As in the case of the anthropoid ape, the human digestive system is twelve times the length of the body; human skin has millions of tiny pores to evaporate water and cool the body by sweating; man drinks water by suction like all other vegetarian animals; humans tooth and jaw structure is vegetarian; and mans saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin to predigest grains. They defend that human beings are clearly not carnivores by physiology or anatomy and the digestive system shows that humans must have evolved from millions of years living on fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables.

 

In their opinion it is obvious that our natural instincts are non-carnivorous. They base their conclusions on the following facts.

 

*

 

Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would be sickened if they had to do the killing themselves.

*

 

Instead of eating raw meat as all flesh-eating animals do, humans boil, bake or fry it and disguise it with all kinds of sauces and spices so that it bears no resemblance to its raw state.

*

 

One scientist explains that a cat will salivate with hungry desire at the smell of a piece of raw flesh but not at the smell of fruit. Man does not delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its living limbs apart with his teeth, and suck the warm blood. One might conclude that nature did not provide him with a meat-eating instinct.

*

 

Fruit makes mans mouth water, and even in absence of hunger he will eat fruit because it tastes so good.

 

The importance of roughage

 

Researchers defend that the lack of vegetable fibres in human diets triggers constipation. Constipation is more dangerous than doctors believe. Should this condition get worse, the patient would need to take immediate action (enemas) or else could develop severe haemorrhoids, headaches, blood poisoning through re-circulation, bad mood crisis- anger, panic depression, hysteria sore eyes, pain located in several eliminative organs and appendicitis.

 

Meat, eggs, cheese, white bread, cakes and chocolates do not contain any roughage at all. Roughage not only helps the bowel circulation but also acts as a tonic for the stomach and intestine walls, which benefit highly from the corresponding massage and cleaning effects. Roughage helps to keep a clean colon and a clear mind.

Researches opinion

 

Several scientists and naturalists, including Charles Darwin who gave the theory of evolution, agree that early humans were fruit and vegetables eaters and that throughout history our anatomy has not changed. The great Swedish scientist Von Linné states: “Man’s structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables, constitute his natural food”.

 

Many defend that it is possible to spend an entire life living just on vegetables and fruit, as many people do. On the contrary, no one can stand a single week (not even five days) on just meat, without the aid of a piece of bread, or chips, or some other vegetable food that enables better ingestion and digestion.

 

They say that humans mix meat with some roughage in order to allow a quicker evacuation, because meat contains certain poisonous substances like creatine, leaukomine, xanthine, sarcina, uric acid and some more which are highly toxic, for us- but not for carnivores, for which these substances are necessary, in order to keep them healthy. We do not need the help of meat to ease the digestion of vegetables though.

 

They point out that medical science tries to demonstrate that since the dawn of origins, humans have been omnivorous. But they strongly believe that people became omnivorous by accident, or better, by degeneration rather than by original design. It is a common mistake to think that just because we were brought up in an omnivorous way, it does not mean it has always been like that.

 

Yoga Teachers believe that meat and fish are not healthy foods, they say that all kind of dead meat (includes fish, shellfish, white meat, red meat, poultry) clogs and poisons the human system, preventing the passage and circulation of positive energies essential to the body in order to progress in Yoga.

 

“ Stop desecrating your sacred body with such an abnormal diet. The land around us grows the most exquisite and delicious fruits in plenty. The earth gives enough nourishment from just its vegetable realm, without the need for torture or violence.”

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I don't know why are people so against a raw food diet

 

- it is more expensive

 

- it is frequently inadequate for their nutritional needs

 

- it can be more environmentally damaging

(I'm not going to find locally grown coconuts in Washington D.C. )

 

- its claims are exaggerated

 

- its rationales are at odds with fact.

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I don't know why are people so against a raw food diet

 

- it is more expensive

 

- it is frequently inadequate for their nutritional needs

 

- it can be more environmentally damaging

(I'm not going to find locally grown coconuts in Washington D.C. )

 

- its claims are exaggerated

 

- its rationales are at odds with fact.

 

imho we could say the exact same things for a cooked diet

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Well yeah, I think your health worth that plus little money, and is it cheaper if I get sick have to go to the doctor and pay for anti-biotics? and you don't use any energy to cook your food etc. , and you don't have to geek on expensive superfoods to get healthy

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Now? Yes! When I was 5-13 I maybe put some tomatoes on my burgers but usually just ketchup and mustard.

That isn't hte issue. I think that everyone can agree that raw foods are good for you. What raw foodists are saying is that you have to eat 100% raw to reach your true potential and optimal health and that is where we disagree.

Dr Fuhrman who is a big promoter of raw foods has written a small text on the issue that I think is pretty good http://www.drfuhrman.com/faq/question.aspx?sid=16&qindex=4

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I don't know why are people so against a raw food diet

 

- it is more expensive

 

- it is frequently inadequate for their nutritional needs

 

- it can be more environmentally damaging

(I'm not going to find locally grown coconuts in Washington D.C. )

 

- its claims are exaggerated

 

- its rationales are at odds with fact.

 

imho we could say the exact same things for a cooked diet

 

Not if you learned what the facts are.

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I don't say I'm detoxing when I'm sick, back in february someone said I most be sick because I'm only vegan for 2 weeks, but no, that was a simple flue, now I eat 100% raw I didn't got sick, lot of people had fever and etc. I had days feeling more tired than usual and one day I had a clogged up nose, but that's all, I'm happy that I didn't got sicker, as before I went out to the cold and the next day I was dying lol

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I think that everyone can agree that raw foods are good for you. What raw foodists are saying is that you have to eat 100% raw to reach your true potential and optimal health and that is where we disagree.

 

Yes, at these booths that I go to when I talk to people who are on the fence with just being VEgan or being a raw foodist, I always suggest to them that they do 50%, or just make a contientious effort to eat their veggies and fruits raw and the rest a good balance of proteins, nuts, complex carbs, etc. I wish more people would embrace the balance of the two worlds.

 

Also, I think what makes it so contraversial is that SOME... not all, but some raw foodists seem to push their lifestyle on you. We're all Vegans... why can't that be enough? Its almost that SOME feel that you're not quite enlightened enough or haven't quite accepted the true path to spiritual awakening if you don't embrace this life.... I dunno... maybe they don't mean to come across that way, but that's how I often feel when speaking to SOME raw foodists.

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Now? Yes! When I was 5-13 I maybe put some tomatoes on my burgers but usually just ketchup and mustard.
at this age were you never sick like now?

That isn't hte issue. I think that everyone can agree that raw foods are good for you. What raw foodists are saying is that you have to eat 100% raw to reach your true potential and optimal health and that is where we disagree.

I haven't read the link you gave but I will take a look. But, do we agree that a food keeps more of it's nutrients and qualities if it isn't cooked ? Then, why a 100% raw diet wouldn't give more potential than a 98% raw diet ? Also, it's easily observable on microscope that the white blood cells react against molecules of cooked food. Although we can't prove there is any direct effects of this on health, we can surely say it's not natural and normal that the body wants to defend itself against food, which is supposed to nourrish the body. And everything unatural is not good.

 

I'm not defending raw food, I eat some cook food myself, I'm just saying what I think.

But from personnal experience, during the last 4 days I've been eating only this each day, while having more energy than ever in my entire life:

 

morning: 1 apple

afternoon: 1 banana

evening: 1 carrot

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I certainly believe low-fat raw is superior to vegan, otherwise I wouldn't eat low-fat raw. As to pushing it on people, we have a right to express ourselves regardless of prevailing ideology. ( The soil your washing into the ocean is our common heritage and I have a duty to protect it for all our sakes, and so on.) Expecting people to be silent is repressive and oppressive.

 

About the only thing I've ever felt I can do to accomodate the cooked majority is be very referential with my writing and avoid comments directed at people. A well crafted critique really should be taken as a possible opportunity to learn and grow, and if your nutritional belief system isn't strong enough to withstand criticism, you should wonder why you have it.

 

I say take these arguments as scientific discovery, and leave the refined sensitivity for nonscientific venues; referential language, like science, does not tend to emphasize interpersonal relations. Science is like exploring in the jungle, you should expect some insect bites and bumpy roads, but the discomfort is often worthwhile. After a while, once you know what to expect, the bumps along the way don't phase you much at all. And in the end, sometimes we discover some amazing things! So suck it up people; as they say in bodybuilding, "no pain, no gain."

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