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For those who think the Iraq war is costing to much money.


Vegan Joe
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Look dude my wife was an illegal for a bit and we didnt get any money or funding, no one spent tax money on us.

All of the information we get ever ,about anything in this world is through the media.

Its never going to be proven, all numbers are fabricated by special intrest groups, which is why people who hate illegals say they cost tons while people for it have different sets of numbers.

The difference here is one of morality.

War is fucked, it kills innocents, kids, friends of mine stuck in a fucked place.

Nothing comparable to people trying to get clean water, more money for hard work, and more saftey for their kids.

Look if you are pro-war fine, if you are anti-illegals fine, but for the sake of all that is good dont quote a bunch of numbers that make no sense to anyone, its all lies, and untill you either have lived it or payed out of your own pocket all these funds just say what you are really trying to say.

All I have been catching from you is a lot of right wing ideals in a mostly left wing board, are you simply baiting arguments, well from someone who lived hiding my wife for a bit, and someone who lost friends in war, I must say, you are being a douche.

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With a little thought you might understand that these "aliens" are real people and have real families and real problems that they might need help with. And if we don't help them they might die.

This is not the case. and for you to imply that this is the exact situation only further weakens your argument for illegal immigration .

vivalasvegans wrote:

Did you post it to get an honest inquiry and discussion going, or to get people mad? I don't get it.

 

I asked the same thing. He just said that I called him a racist

Apparently you both have trouble dealing with the truth and your only argument againt it is to call me names.

 

My talk isn't cheap. My work, for years, has been studying immigration.

 

I don't have trouble dealing with the truth either. And, I have not argued against your initial post by calling you names. It's weird you would say I did. Please re-read carefully.

 

You've used a lot of logical fallacies in your posts here. The one you just used above is called an ad hominem attack. That's when someone attacks the person they're supposed to be debating with, instead of their arguments.

 

So, I'm not gonna talk to you about this any more, VeganJoe.

 

For people who are interested in reading more about the topic, these are good places to start. There are more complex, in depth, and boring analyses available too, if you want more.

 

http://www.aollatinoblog.com/2008/04/14/do-immigrants-pay-their-fair-share-of-taxes-you-bet-they-do/

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584

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And, I have not argued against your initial post by calling you names. It's weird you would say I did. That's when someone attacks the person they're supposed to be debating with, instead of their arguments.

 

vivalasvegans wrote:

Did you post it to get an honest inquiry and discussion going, or to get people mad? I don't get it.

I had no idea this statement was one of praise.

Excuse me for misinterpreting criticism.

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Immigrants Pay More in Taxes Than They Use in Services Over Their Lifetimes: Depending on skills and level of education, each immigrant pays, on average, between $20,000 and $80,000 more in taxes than he or she consumes in public benefits

This statement from one of your loinks says nothing.

Everyone pays sale taxs, can't get out of the store without paying them.

What about the average American? How much tax do they pay compared to the public benifits they recieve.

Most illiegal workers don't pay income taxes, as many are payed "under the table".

This statement alone says nothing unless it is compared to something else.

Baseless statements are easy to produce.

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Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy.

I missed the part about how they are lowering the standard living wage for the average American.

The statement in red is false.

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=54502

 

05/25/2006 12:08 AM ID: 54502

Illegal Immigrants to Collect Social Security

The United States Senate quietly voted last Thursday to allow illegal immigrants to collect Social Security - even if the employment was obtained through fradulent or stolen documents.

Edited by Vegan Joe
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Immigrants Educated on Home Country's Tab: The roughly 26 million immigrants now in the United States who arrived when they were over the age of 18--after their upbringing and basic education were paid for in their home countries--represent a windfall to American taxpayers of roughly $2.8 trillion. The US receives all of the tax payments made by these immigrants, while bearing almost none of the costs of raising and educating them.

 

A windfall?

How backward thinking is that?

Funny but shouldn't that statement start with the words "Illegal Immigrants"

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Joe my opposition to the state is not based on some utopian ideal, but upon morals. If my positions are unreal to you because they seem idealistic then I take it that you are saying morals (a sense of right and wrong) are idealistic as well. They are in a sense, however I believe you can live by your morals whereas idealism really never goes anywhere. The highest mark of a person's moral development is going beyond a concrete stage of rationalization which holds that laws by the government must be obeyed completely. For example if it becomes law that a certain group of people are not allowed to exist within a geographic region and must be exterminated it follows that those with higher levels of moral intelligence will not follow such dictates and will most likely do their best to subvert them. This is hardly idealistic since it is a scenario that has played out in human history more than once. It just so happens that my morals against stealing and murder follow the laws your bureaucrats have put upon this nation, however they have made laws against how fast I can drive, things I can consume, things I may purchase, what I can say and where, what I can own, etc. I don't follow these laws as I have no moral reason to do so. I can see why you would think that what I am saying is idealism, however this is the reality of my life. I really cannot separate my morals and the way I live. Just because something is the written law does not justify it in my mind. If you are so worried about your tax money and welfare but also have no problem with immigrants you should take a more principled stand against the welfare system entirely. It's also an easier argument to make instead of justifying welfare for some but not others, and trying to work out legal immigration. The K.I.S.S. methodology...such broad applications.

 

Back tot he subject at hand...Laws pertaining to immigration have by and large been inspired by racism and protectionism. After WWII the same immigrants invited into the US to work while the boys were away were chased out when the boys came back. I also think that if the "average american" is losing work to people who come to this country and can't even speak english, let alone lack an american high school education then so be it. May the best man (or woman) win. My money shouldn't be stolen from me just to help someone's sorry ass be comfortable and hard working people shouldn't be kept out by the force of law just to limit competition. Using force to limit competition...that is something gangsters do.

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Laws aren't something to base ethics upon, laws should come out of ethics, and it's going to be impossible to make laws which everyone would agree are ethical. So it's not really accurate to say "it's the law therefore it's right" and "it's against the law therefore it's wrong". I know of plenty of laws that I think are unethical or silly, and I know of many things which I consider to be wrong which are legal. To say that someone is illegally in a country, isn't evidence that it is wrong, that's just the system of that particular country. Like in this country the age of consent is 16, and so to an American, everybody in this country who is in a relationship with a 16-year-old is a pedophile / sex offender, and if they moved to America it'd be illegal. But that doesn't mean that it's intrinsically and universally "wrong", just because there is an American law against it.

 

I don't know enough about immigration to have an opinion one way or the other on the actual topic though

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Not picking sides with either opinion here, but just wanted to clear some things up from a different perspective -

 

U.S. economics would be deeply and really heavily f***ed up if there were no illegal aliens. Fruits would be a LOT more expensive and huge amounts of people would have no housemaids.

 

Fruits picked inside the USA would unquestionably be more expensive because there's not a high demand from those of legal employment status wanting to do that line of work. This can be due to varying factors - the usual claim being that the pay, if it were scaled for citizens who were of legal employment status, would be minimum wage by most estimates, and you won't find a lot of people lininig up to make the least money possible. It would make more sense for people to look for off-the-books paying jobs as, $7/hour untaxed is worth a lot more than $7/hour after taking nearly 25% off the top.

 

Those that can afford full-time housekeepers/maids/etc. rarely hire an illegal because it's the only way they can afford live-in help for cooking/cleaning/etc. If you can afford someone to be working all day to clean and cook your food, then chances are, you're not hurting for money and could easily afford to hire someone who is of legal employment status. But, the very wealthy are often notoriously cheap when it comes to certain factors, so they're happy to exploit illegal labor so that they can save a few thousand dollars and have someone do all their daily home duties for them rather than employ someone who may want fair pay, benefits or insurance. Why pay someone $35k/year or more when you can hire an illegal who will live in constant fear of losing their job if they speak up who will work for less than half of that? It's usually simple greed that makes someone hire an illegal immigrant more than anything else. Pay them less, don't give benefits, be as demanding as you want...nothing for the benfit of the worker, but it saves the rich more money so to them, it's a viable option. And, as tends to happen, when they get caught they just play dumb, wave to their former employee as they're dragged off by the I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Services, who will happily deport back those that they catch), and hire another of the many who are waiting to take their place.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people from Mexico and other central American countries are working in clothing industry -> American clothes would be a lot more expensive without illegal aliens.

 

Many of those who are here that are not legal citizens that work in the clothing industry are often working in American sweatshops. California, particularly Los Angeles, has MANY of them, just as there are many in other large cities like New York. You can't get a true "on-the-level" legal job here in a company as an illegal immigrant under normal circumstances. Companies that are reputable, which are usually the ones with higher standards for employee care, don't hire illegals because technically, it's not legal to do so, even if they'd like to assist those that come to the USA looking for employment and a new life (they can be fined greatly or jailed for hiring illegals depeding on the situation). Companies that hire illegals are doing so at their own risk, and sadly, the main reason that companies hire illegals is because it's far cheaper to pay someone a flat rate in cash "under the table" vs. hiring someone that wants a fair wage, who wants insurance of benefits, and doesn't want to possibly be coerced into working excessive hours, or in unsafe conditions, or to be made to work extra without overtime compensation. As I've said before in threads regarding taxation, business are raked over the coals and made to pay so much in employee taxes that it's tempting for many businesses to skip over hiring legal workers because of the huge savings that hiring illegals will net them. If you're working as an illegal, you're pretty well guaranteed to not be listed anywhere on a company's books that will trace back to you, with your payment being buried in expenses in other areas wherever it can be concealed. That way, the employer is paying you less (claiming that you can work for less because you're not being taxed on your income), and the person being paid is not paying taxes on their income. Yes, they'll pay things like sales tax when they make purchases, but here in Wisconsin, they basically wouldn't be paying the average 23% in taxes on income that I would pay when I get my check

 

While it may seem noble from an outsider's perspective to hire illegal immigrants to work at a shop in the USA, it is almost always done because the company is taking advantage of the immigrants, not because they're genuinely interested in helping them out.

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So true.

This argument is easy to solve.

 

Fighting immigration = conservative policy

conservative policies = wrong

therefore

fighting immigration = wrong

 

 

Also, xjohanx has made a ridiculous number of accurate and truthful posts. Everyone should just read those and be done with this thread.

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Funny how Finlanders and the like know so much about US economic and forien policies. LOL

Back up yopur assumption with some proof. It nice nto talk all that fluffy stuff but in reality the country would do fine with LEGAL immagration. Yes I know my hamburger would cost more. But I'm willing to pay more to see more people live within the confines of the law.

Actually Finnish people on average seem to know more about the U.S. than Americans. We have pretty much the best education system in the world and majority of the people know what's happening in the world.

 

Your country would do fine if all immigration was legal.

 

Illegal immigrants have problems with law because they have no civil rights. If you want people to start obeying the law, give them legal rights ffs, not judge them for being from a poor country!

 

If the foreign policy of the U.S. worked, Mexico would be developing at the same pace as Estonia, which has become wealthy really fast partly because Finnish companies started investing huge amounts of money in there after USSR collapsed and Estonia became independent.

 

Open the borders for people but tighten the control for arms and drugs. Is there any other change? There is no way to keep foreigners away as long as things suck in Mexico. Mexico is pretty much the only poor country in the world right next to a ridiculously rich country.

 

BTW, VeganEssentials had great comments. I agree many people abuse illegal immigrants, but they can always choose to return. As long as there is such a thing as illegal immigrants they will be abused. But abuse doesn't take away the fact that they still are benefical to the economy of the U.S... and thx for the Builder Bars, got them today.

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Based on the orginal post on this thread and posts on the Gen. Colin Powell Endorses Sen. Barack Obama for President thread, I think Vegan Joe has issues of racism and xenophobia. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15212

 

What's the point of posting all those statistics Vegan Joe?

Stop scapegoating undocumented workers!

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.

Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77

March 1995 Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce

White mothers of childbearing ages (2.1 million) were AFDC recipients.

Black mothers of childbearing ages (1.5 million) were AFDC recipients.

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/statbriefs/sb2-95.html

 

According to the statistics, whites form the largest racial group on welfare

Here are the statistics on welfare recipients:

Traits of families on AFDC (1)

Race

--------------

White 38.8%

Black 37.2

Hispanic 17.8

Asian 2.8

Other 3.4

1. Overview of Entitlement Programs, Committee on Ways and Means, U.S. House of Representatives (U.S. Government Printing Office, 1994).

14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants

In The United States'. Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The webpage cannot be found

What happened to the webpage Vegan Joe?

 

Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2005

Statistical Tables

Rape/Sexual assault

White Victims: 111,490

Perceived race of the offender

White: 44.5%

Black: 33.6%

Other: 19.6%

Not known and not availible: 2.3%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf

Edited by veganmomma
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See what I mean, its all numbers, people can see in them what they want to, so I am sure I am playing into your original reason to post this all, you want to argue, so I guess I am somewhat of a douche myself, but you started it, and you are still a douche.

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And now that I have seen your responces to roberts front door I know that you are no one I would care to ever associate with, nor do I understand why you would want to diss on the only man who could keep a evil bitch like Palin out of office.

You are a vegan while this lady stands for everything we are not.

Good luck in this life.

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And now that I have seen your responces to roberts front door I know that you are no one I would care to ever associate with, nor do I understand why you would want to diss on the only man who could keep a evil bitch like Palin out of office.

You are a vegan while this lady stands for everything we are not.

Good luck in this life.

Interesting how you cannot debate any points on the subject. The only thing you can do is show uncontrolled hatred for someone who thinks/believes differently than you. I see this as a character flaw on you part.. I don't choose my presidents by what he or she eats. as very few people are veg..

PS I didn't know Obama was a Vegan, thanks for the information.

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VeganJoe I find it a bit weird (racist) to post only numbers and costs related to immigrants don't you think; as if there wasn't any other costs related to other taxation, and different industries, or government campaigns against smoking or other health issues.

 

Therefore we could say: For those who think illegal immigration is costing too much, see how much costs the war in Irak, and health care, and this, and that... But these things can't be compared to illegal immigration. If you were born in a country where civil war rages, I bet you would like to go to US to save your ass, even if it's illegal... except maybe if you were Iraqi

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Illegal immigrants have problems with law because they have no civil rights. If you want people to start obeying the law, give them legal rights ffs, not judge them for being from a poor country!

 

Open the borders for people but tighten the control for arms and drugs. Is there any other change? There is no way to keep foreigners away as long as things suck in Mexico. Mexico is pretty much the only poor country in the world right next to a ridiculously rich country.

One again these are just the pie in the sky dreams of Idealist with no real solution. It ludicrous to think you could just open the boarder without any major social or economic impact. Pipe dreams are a dime a dozen but real viable solutions will alway elude the Idealist. We all want no wars, a home with a dog, and job for everyone, but some people have put down the hash bowl along time ago and come back to the reality of the world the way it really is. Maybe that's the difference between Socialism and capitalism. In Capitalism you work hard you aquire your home, dog, car, etc. Now lets just give it all away because someone comes along with what ever story he mave have. So you give him your home, dog, car, wife, and you go live on the street. Now that fair right. There are programs in this country for the poor, we give aid to other countries Americans give alot of thier owen money to help the less fortunate. Now listen to this point: We as Americans cannot fix all the problems in the world like the rest of the world thinks we can. Like anyone we want good things for all peoples but we also want good thing for us also. But I quess the only solution for many of you is to give up all you've worked for and go live in the street so the rest of the people in the world can have it good. We can't fix everything and you don't even want to give us credit for trying.

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VeganJoe I find it a bit weird (racist) to post only numbers and costs related to immigrants don't you think; as if there wasn't any other costs related to other taxation, and different industries, or government campaigns against smoking or other health issues.

 

Therefore we could say: For those who think illegal immigration is costing too much, see how much costs the war in Irak, and health care, and this, and that... But these things can't be compared to illegal immigration. If you were born in a country where civil war rages, I bet you would like to go to US to save your ass, even if it's illegal... except maybe if you were Iraqi

I'm a racist because why?

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