Being vegan and having a dog/cat

[compassionategirl]

forcing an animal to eat vegan, just because you do is unethical and wrong.

 

Sister, while I am not saying I disagree with you, this is an interesting assertion from somebody who apparently subscribes to moral relativism.

[Michelle]

compassionategirl, thanks for sharing the link for http://www.iamscruelty.com - I've been looking for a list of more responsible pet food companies, so I can at least make an informed choice when I feed my cats.

 

The good news is that one of the brands we have right now is in the list of brands that do not test on animals, so I'm happy about that. The other brand we have, http://www.petpromiseinc.com isn't. I really hope that it's just because they weren't contacted for the survey, because I like everything else about this brand.

[sinisterkungfu]

forcing an animal to eat vegan, just because you do is unethical and wrong.

 

Sister, while I am not saying I disagree with you, this is an interesting assertion from somebody who apparently subscribes to moral relativism.

 

What happened to the rest of your post where you agreed with me?

 

ps. it's sin-is-ter, not sister.

[compassionategirl]

compassionategirl, thanks for sharing the link for http://www.iamscruelty.com - I've been looking for a list of more responsible pet food companies, so I can at least make an informed choice when I feed my cats.

 

 

Tis my burning duty for our animal friends to get their voices heard, so no thanks necessary. I am glad you found it helpful Michelle. Although I suspect that if a company is not on the list, it is not because PETA did not send them a survey. The more likely explanation is that either they have admitted to engaging in laboratory testing, OR they failed to respond, in which case it can be inferred that they engage in such testing.

 

If I was in your shoes, and I really wanted to know about a particular company/brand that I otherwise like, this is what I would do: contact them and inquire directly about why they are not on PETA's list, AND ask them point blank whether they engage in any form of laboratory testing on animals. If they claim to do home testing and not laboratory testing (which is what we want to hear), then I would ask them to send me their alleged cruelty free testing policies in writing. I would also tell direct them to the iamscruelty.com site where the list can be found, and ask them to contact PETA and get on the cruelty free list, and advise them that until they do so, my business will be going to companies that ARE on the cruelty free list. This way, companies start paying attention to such cruelty free lists when they realize that consumers actually give weight to such lists when making decisions about what to buy and what to avoid. When companies start taking sch lists seriously, that can only help our animal friends!

 

Or, if you want a quicker option, you can always email peta directly at [email protected] and ask them about their experience/interaction/correspondence with that particular company. This might actually be a better, faster and more reliable course of action anway.

 

 

When speaking to companies about animal testing policies, please everybody be aware that the telephone operators usually read from a script that has been carefully devised by their public relations people to sound as progressive and animal friendly as possible. Consumers who contact companies about their animal testing policies are usually given information in very ambiguous indirect ways so as to mislead. For example, if an inexperienced individual were to contact Proctor and Gamble, and inquire about P&G's animal testing policies, they could easily walk away from that conversation under the false impression that P&G is animal friendly NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

 

Remember that P&G owns Iams, and thus has responsibility in the Frankenstien like torture you saw on that link. Not to mention all the animals it has blinded, maimed, paralyzed, tortured and killed for its other popular household brands like Tide Laundry detergent, Mr. Clean, Crest toothpaste, etc. Each time you see a new and improved or new scented or otherwise tweaked version of these products in commercials, be mindful of the dirty, dark, sordid reality of torture and death that these products have resulted in BEHIND the "happy go lucky" commercials.

 

So beware, and please, ask, ask, ask! Confirm, confirm, confirm with organizations and groups that are dedicated to exposing vivisectors!

Edited November 27, 2005 by compassionategirl

[compassionategirl]

forcing an animal to eat vegan, just because you do is unethical and wrong.

 

Sister, while I am not saying I disagree with you, this is an interesting assertion from somebody who apparently subscribes to moral relativism.

 

What happened to the rest of your post where you agreed with me?

 

ps. it's sin-is-ter, not sister.

 

Oops -- sorry Sinister for not being more careful with your name.

 

Dont know what happened to the rest of my post, but what I basically said was what I said on that other thread:

 

Yes I have 2 cats. yes they are rescues. yes I have tried to feed them vegan as I believe we should all try to do. no it didnt work (they wouldnt eat the vegan food). NO I will not starve them into submission because I think that is cruel. YES, I am ethically bothered about feeding them other tortured and abused animals because I think that is also cruel. YES I see the moral dilemma in feeding non-vegan food to my cats and thereby subordinating the rights of other innocent and sentient animals -- including "rodents" which are just as innocent -- to the innate carnivorous desires of my cats. Yes I hate the fact that humans have domesticated animals, and the animals are the ones that once again are paying the price dearly for our selfish needs and pleasures. Yes I think that we have a duty to at least make every effort to try and veganize our cats, and if our cats are eating the vegan food and remaining healthy on it, then a carnivorous diet is unacceptable from a moral standpoint regardless of the fact that cats are carnivores.

 

BUT PLEASE WHEN BUYING PET FOOD PLEASE CHOOSE FROM THE LIST WHICH CAN BE FOUND AT IAMSCRUELTY.COM.

Edited November 27, 2005 by compassionategirl

[sinisterkungfu]

BUT PLEASE WHEN BUYING PET FOOD PLEASE CHOOSE FROM THE LIST WHICH CAN BE FOUND AT IAMSCRUELTY.COM.

 

That website is blocked by the firewall at work as "gruesome content"

[compassionategirl]

When speaking to companies about animal testing policies, please everybody be aware that the telephone operators usually read from a script that has been carefully devised by their public relations people to sound as progressive and animal friendly as possible. Consumers who contact companies about their animal testing policies are usually given information in very ambiguous indirect ways so as to mislead. For example, if an inexperienced individual were to contact Proctor and Gamble, and inquire about P&G's animal testing policies, they could easily walk away from that conversation under the false impression that P&G is animal friendly. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!! I am speaking from personal experience because this is exactly the false impression that I walked away with after a conversation with Unilever personnel about their animal testing policies years ago when I was new and NAIVE to the vivisection industry.

 

hey where did the rest of my post go -- i meant to quote myself and add something else.

 

oh well you all get my drift i'm sure.

[Aaron]

"What I'm saying is that your personal responsibility is much greater to an animal that you choose to take into your home and care for, over some animals at a farm on the other side of the country."

 

Proximity as a bounds of ethical responsibility. Interesting.

 

Although there's still the disassociation of self from the act of paying (transfer of work credit) the animal industry.

[CrispyQ]

My old guy eats health food store chows (meat based) & some canned food. My younger cats (13) eat mostly vegan chows & canned food from this site: http://www.vegancats.com/ If you're concerned about taurine, clam juice is a good source & you can pour some on their chows daily. It's a compromise, but perhaps not as drastic a one as meat food. VeggyMeggy, you are right, vegan cat food is expensive & you must plan ahead. If you run out of chows you can't just run to the store & get some.

 

All that said, I'm a better person for my living with animals. Does that make it right? I don't know, but I would not be as compassionate to all animals had it not been for my intimate interactions with a few animals. However, in the future, I will probably limit my animal companions to ones that are veg or omnivorous. I've had rabbits & they are wonderful creatures - vegetarian too, although you have to read the labels as some manufacturers put beef fat in rabbit food. Go figure.

[compassionategirl]

All that said, I'm a better person for my living with animals... I would not be as compassionate to all animals had it not been for my intimate interactions with a few animals.

 

100% diddo for me. It was my friendship with my first cat that planted the seed for my eventual evolution in consciousness towards veganism and animal rights. I would love to see a future though were all animals are free, none need rescuing from shelters, etc. -- even though I would miss sharing my daily life with animals terribly (but these are selfish tears). What a glorious day of animal liberation that would be and I feel I must in good conscience support that without allowing selfish desires to get in the way. Until then, many animals need rescuing and I would rather see them with TRUE animal lovers (i.e. animal rights people/ethical vegans).

[Bigbwii]

It's so easy to say don't keep animals as pets! but what happens to the animals in the shelters that have been abandoned!!! the problem is that for generations animals have been domesticated so we are always going to have animals around in the mix! I have personal experience with this as I run a Doberman rescue and I've seen some low down stuff!!! you guys can argue,debate and intelectualise the situation all you want the fact of the matter is that the animals are out there!!!! they need help!!! and yes they have a different dietry need to us whever we agree with it or not but I think as people not vegans, we need to decide if we are going to help or not! if your not going to help don't rant and rave about animal cruelty!!!! it makes me sick when I see vegans protest about animal cruelty but then debate about keeping pets when animals are dying in the shelters!!!!! and to make things worse nearly all the animal rescues I know are run by meateaters!!!! think about that when your judging someone for not being Vegan! I feed mine raw meat and bones! I hate dealing with it but it's their natural diet plus it's better than kibble which is like eating beef or lamb flavoured cookies every day?

Edited November 28, 2005 by Bigbwii

[compassionategirl]

It's so easy to say don't keep animals as pets! but what happens to the animals in the shelters that have been abandoned!!! the problem is that for generations animals have been domesticated so we are always going to have animals around in the mix! I have personal experience with this as I run a Doberman rescue and I've seen some low down stuff!!! you guys can argue,debate and intelectualise the situation all you want the fact of the matter is that the animals are out there!!!! they need help!!! and yes they have a different dietry need to us whever we agree with it or not but I think as people not vegans, we need to decide if we are going to help or not! if your not going to help don't rant and rave about animal cruelty!!!! it makes me sick when I see vegans protest about animal cruelty but then debate about keeping pets when animals are dying in the shelters!!!!! and to make things worse nearly all the animal rescues I know are run by meateaters!!!! think about that your judging someone for not being Vegan! I feed mine raw meat and bones! I hate dealing with it but it's their natural diet plus it's better than kibble which is like eating beef or lamb flavoured cookies every day?

 

Such hostility from a VEGAN towards other fellow vegans who are less willing to excuse non-vegans from their selfish, CRUEL and gluttonous lifestyles. Truly sad

 

I dont understand why you are so hostile in your post Big. When you make that "judging somebody for not being vegan comment", I assume this reflects your annoyance with that other thread. Yet, nobody from that thread that was less sympathetic to and tolerant of, non-veganism than you were, posted anything on this thread to suggest that they would turn their backs on animals in shelters. Unless I missed something?

 

As suggested by my previous post, I agree. There are millions of animals in shelters that need us and we need to respond, while, in my opinion, working for that glorious day of animal liberation. I too, like Will, am absolutely opposed to commercial breeding but feel compelled to respond to animals in need. As I have suggested elsewhere, all animals in my life have been rescues, from shelters and otherwise, and I actively encourage people looking for "pets" to adopt from shelters instead of buy from breeders or pet stores. I think most vegans who share their lives with animals feel this way.

[Guest]

[Gym hater]

It's so easy to say don't keep animals as pets! but what happens to the animals in the shelters that have been abandoned!!! the problem is that for generations animals have been domesticated so we are always going to have animals around in the mix!

 

Well, then you can also argue that the meat industry does something positive. Instead of focussing on the killing part they do, you can also focus on the part that they are responsible for the birth of a lot of baby animals. If it wasn't for the meat industry a lot of animals wouldn't have gotten the chance to experience life.

So most thing have a good and a bad side, but it indeed is easy to say that. And I think it is a great thing you run a doberman shelter. I just am not going to get a dog or a cat.

[Bigbwii]

GymHater, that's cool just putting out another perspective because as you said there's different sides to everything

[Crash]

It's because of having Max in my life that I became aware that animals have feelings, needs and it brought their plight closer to me. It made me realize animals were not things and they should have and deserve better than the slaughterhouse and labs. Because of Max I became vegan.

[CrispyQ]

It's because of having Max in my life that I became aware that animals have feelings, needs and it brought their plight closer to me. It made me realize animals were not things and they should have and deserve better than the slaughterhouse and labs. Because of Max I became vegan.

 

Beautifully said!

 

I believe many of us are better people cuz of our interactions with our animal friends -- interactions we would not have had if we had not opened our homes to pets. I agree with Bigbwii that animal domestication is probably here to stay. We should do the best we can for those who need our help, friendship, love & care.

[cryptomancer]

Wow, some very good points, I never actually gave this topic that much thought, now that it was proposed I have and let me tell you, its a hard one. here is my take on it...

 

There is basically no right or wrong answer here, we as a society screwed up royally when we began to domesticate wild animals, now we are left with millions of animals that no longer have a place in nature except by our side. If allowed back into the wild maybe they would eventually re-adapt to nature or go extinct if unable. However, realistically speaking, we are nowhere near a point where we can re introduce domesticated animals back in nature, it would be nice to do it but until that day comes make the best of it and make your own call as to what YOU think is best and try to balance what is best for your ethics, your pet’s well being and the rest of nature.

 

Also, ethics are not sets of rules and standards, those are called morals, lets not confuse the two. You are not compromising your ethics by trying to do what’s best for your pet, your just trying to make the best of a messed up situation. No one in here is 100% perfectly ethical, we all here see a problem with the world and are trying to ether help or at least not contribute to the problem. We really got to be careful to not fall into the whole “I’m more ethical than thou” way of thinking, even if you believe yourself to be a total hardcore vegan bad ass, I bet there are still a few things in your life that contribute to animal suffering, its not your fault, you’re doing all you can but its the way society has being structured. I guess what I’m trying to say is, if any of us think we are perfectly ethical, then we would be hypocrites.

 

I feed my dog (whom I picked up from the street) dry food most of the time and every once in a while canned dog food (with meat). Why should she suffer because I can’t afford expensive vegan dog food (its expensive in my neck of the woods) or because society is all screwed up? for the time being, I’m comfortable with my level of veganess. Eventually when my situation changes, I’ll implement more veganess into my life. That being said, I will check out that list and try a few options with Kor (my doggie friend) and see if it fits into my budget.

 

Great discussion guys!!! I love it here.

 

P.S.

I just found out that I can’t eat skittles, apparently they have gelatin which is made from grinded bones of animals, I loved skittles, that sucks.

[Aaron]

I think there are vegan skittles.

 

Also i think dogs are generally considered omnivores so maybe cheap vegetarian feed exists? no clue. Never had dogs.

[cryptomancer]

Yeah, I can't seam to find any vegan skittles here in the Cali though, I did have a friend from Australia bring me some when he visited Los Angeles, I guess all skittles are vegan down there.

 

Anyone from Australia in here, perhaps we can arrange something

[Aaron]

http://store.foodfightgrocery.com/skittles.html

 

When they've got them in, they've got them in.

 

You could try e-mailing them.

[vermonthiker]

I feed my animals raw chicken parts. I get them from a local organic farm. They raise free range birds with organic feed. My animals (dogs and cat) do very well on this diet. These parts are leftover organs from chickens who would be killed whether or not I purchased the meat. I feel it's a good compromise...

[violet13]

It is also cruel to let some people murder innocent animals so you can feed it to your cat/dog. So telling people meat is murder but feeding a cat meat is kind of hypcrit(or however that is spelled).

 

Gym hater very well said!

I have nothing against vegan cat food as long as my cats enjoy vegan cat food and all nutritional requirements are met.

People who are feeding vegan pet food tell us that animals who are fed vegan pet food are much healthier and live longer.

http://www.madcowboy.com/02_VeganPets.html

[violet13]

http://www.preciouspets.org/rendering.htm

I have hard time to understand people who think it is perfectly ok to feed commercial pet food to their companion animals.

How can we justify feeding of part of factory farmed animals who were tortured LIFE LONG in factory farms and ended their lives in meat packing plant of sea of blood and scream?

Are cats and dogs are more important than billions of farm animals who suffered so much?

I know most people on this forum do not eat factory farmed animals but I have hard time to understand people who cuddle cats and dogs while putting farm animal flesh on their plate.

When we speak about immorality of consuming meat/dairy/eggs and encourage other people to adapt vegan life style, keep feeding rendering plant products to our companion animals is hypocritical to me but in reality, most people do feed commercial pet food to their companion animals because of convenience.

To be honest, I buy nothing but canned fish to my 7 cats but I still feel like hypocrite for someone who wants other people to adapt vegan life style.

My cats love pasta with tomato sauce mixed with canned fish.

[CrispyQ]

Animal companions are definitely a vegan quandry.

 

If you read the entire thread, you will find many who state that it was through their intimate encounters with their animals that they expanded their compassion to include all animals. I agree, that it is contrary to the vegan way of life to feed your companion animals meat, but Violet, at some point you need to come to terms with the fact that we live in a non-perfect world & in many situations compromises must be made. The goal is to set yourself up so you have the most options to make the most non-violent compromises.

 

Sometimes I think you forget you are preaching to the chior here. We're on your side, really, we are, but your constant antagonism wears me down.

 

I have a friend who says that the only perfect vegan is a dead vegan & that you don't want to be in that group!