A short list of Gods - Kinda how I feel about things

[robert]

I really like the way George puts things:

 

 

I've always admired logic, reason and sensibility.

[beforewisdom]

I've been an atheist since I was about 18. I usually avoid the favorite past time of some atheists, talking about the irrationality of many religious beliefs. Too easy, it is like shooting fish in a barrel. I think it is much more of a challenge and scary, to ask yourself how you know what you know about things you don't question. Not many people have the guts to direct the lights of empiricism and logic on things they are attached to.

 

On the whole, one of the reasons I'm an atheist is that I don't enjoy talking about religious beliefs. I am doing that more these days because theists are overstepping their bounds and trying to take the freedom of others away.

[Vegan Joe]

My logic say that if someone embrace some form of religion that practices within the bounds of the law, and it makes them feel good, and gives them comfort, and it teaches them a sense of morality. I'm not going to knock them for it.

Even though I am without a doubt a Jack Mormon, and I have no guilt for not living up to any expectations, or standards, because I have my own truths. I do enjoy going to church most Sundays, though, and don't look down upon any there.

PS I not to long ago passed level I at the local Buddist Temple.

[robert]

I see where you're coming from but, my point is that religion is ridiculous to begin with and that finding "truth" within a religion that has a God, still isn't true since God does not exist. Therefore, since belief in God is nullified, belief in the religion based around that God is also nullified and untrue.

 

Logic and free thinking tells me it's all a scam, and what an unfortunate scam it is to be the cause of so many millions of deaths through wars based around religious beliefs and the other evils connected with it.

 

I understand that it gives many people hope, security and comfort, but that doesn't make it true.

[Vegan Joe]

God does not exist.

Guess that all depends on your definition of.

"Monism is any philosophical view which holds that there is unity in a given field of inquiry, where this is not to be expected. Thus, some philosophers may hold that the Universe is really just one thing, despite its many appearances and diversities: or theology may support the view that there is one God, with many manifestations in different religions."

"The nineteenth century Darwinist philosopher Ernst Haeckel distinguished between dualism - the religious idea of a God separate from his creation - and monism - the thesis that there is "one sole substance in the universe, which is at once "God and Nature"; body and spirit"

[Richard]

Yeah I love it. Who is this comedian? I don't like arguments and all that, especially on the subject of religion because of how frustrating it gets, but sadly it's pretty necessary. I think it's good that people are ripping religion, because it shouldn't be sacred, it shouldn't be something people can't make fun of or analyze - just like everything else. To skirt around it and say "I 'respect' your beliefs" is to give it some special aura and put it on a pedestal, which it doesn't deserve.

[Amy]

I see where you're coming from but, my point is that religion is ridiculous to begin with and that finding "truth" within a religion that has a God, still isn't true since God does not exist. Therefore, since belief in God is nullified, belief in the religion based around that God is also nullified and untrue.

 

 

Hi Robert! I am a Christian and I do believe there is a God. It is more than a belief of mine because I know he is in my heart. How do I know he exists? It is not from bible teaching. It is not from what others tell me. It is from what he has shown me in my life. One small example is every time I tithe. I can have very little in my checking account, give 10% as an offering, and every time it comes back to me without fail. A check for something will arrive in the mail. A bill that I thought had to be paid somehow is mysteriously taken care of. I used to be "all about me". I try to be all about HIM every day. It is a hard thing to do since I can't see him physically. I just have faith that he is there.

 

Let's just say that God doesn't exist since I have never seen him. Let's just say that all of the faith that I have placed in him was misguided. Am I harming anyone? I honestly don't believe so. I don't try to push my faith on anyone. The way I lived my life in the past was harmful to myself. My faith and belief in God has made me a better person today. I am by no means perfect at all. I am happier today to have him in my life. I could go on and on about how my life is better now. I can't physically introduce you to God. I can only share how he has helped me in my life. (I would love to share by the way).

 

I am really not trying to start a debate or upset anyone by sharing my personal beliefs. Just like I am sure you aren't trying to upset anyone by sharing yours. I believe everyone on this forum are very loving individuals. It is shown by everyone's respect for life. My question is how can anyone prove that God does not exist?

[hsorlando]

Amy I agree with you 100%. I'm also Christian, but I don't push what I believe on anyone. I won't get in a debate either, because there will always be many opinions that make sense.

[sinisterkungfu]

My question is how can anyone prove that God does not exist?

 

 

The burden of proof lies with the believer.

[robert]

I realize there are lots of different beliefs here on the forum and my intent isn't to insult or offend anyone, I just try to write in terms of logical sense.

 

Such as, why don't people believe in the thousands of other Gods that you could believe in? Isn't that somewhat irresponsible for a person of faith to dismiss thousands of other Gods and only believe in one, say the Christian God or Mormon God? It just doesn't make sense, especially since dozens, perhaps hundreds or perhaps thousands of other Gods actually make a little more logical sense than the Christian God for example, who is one of the most unbelievable Gods to ever be conceptualized.

 

It's just not something I can grasp, so I struggle with the idea of God. I've been to Church many times, perhaps more than some Christians here, but I could always see right through the BS from the very beginning, and I remember it very clearly as a child at Vacation Bible School "learning" about people living to over 900 years of age, and learning of predator and prey marching peacefully 2 by 2 onto a large boat without harming one another, learning of a talking snake in a tree and a virgin birth, and learned of many other things that just couldn't have happened. Scientifically, Biologically, physiologically impossible acts that are believed to have actually happened. I just can't grasp it or buy into it, for more reasons than I could list here.

 

For the most part I don't have a big problem with individuals who follow religion, but as a whole I see it as very evil because of all the hate behind it. Religion is the cause of many and most wars now and throughout our entire history, religion is the reason people who are gay cannot marry one another in most places around the world, religion is the reason we have suicide bombers, and religion is the root cause of a long list of other problems that plague the world everyday.

 

Again, not to offend anyone, but just wanted to share some thoughts. Across the board, I am very respectful person. The reason I talk about this subject is because I have often actually felt insulted by others because they look down on me for not being "enlightened" yet, though I refuse to feel as if I'm the foolish one in this equation. So with all due respect, I share these ideas.

[blabbate]

Such as, why don't people believe in the thousands of other Gods that you could believe in? Isn't that somewhat irresponsible for a person of faith to dismiss thousands of other Gods and only believe in one, say the Christian God or Mormon God? It just doesn't make sense, especially since dozens, perhaps hundreds or perhaps thousands of other Gods actually make a little more logical sense than the Christian God for example, who is one of the most unbelievable Gods to ever be conceptualized.

I don't think any of them make particularly more sense than any others, but it's a different thing to say "there is no God" than it is to say "all the Gods we've made up are probably wrong." I agree that religion is silly, and often very harmful, but I also find it mind-boggling that we exist, period. That's what it all comes back to for me. Within our world, I don't need imaginary men in the sky to explain why and how things happen. But when it comes to the fundamental question of existence, I don't know.

 

It's just not something I can grasp, so I struggle with the idea of God. I've been to Church many times, perhaps more than some Christians here, but I could always see right through the BS from the very beginning, and I remember it very clearly as a child at Vacation Bible School "learning" about people living to over 900 years of age, and learning of predator and prey marching peacefully 2 by 2 onto a large boat without harming one another, learning of a talking snake in a tree and a virgin birth, and learned of many other things that just couldn't have happened. Scientifically, Biologically, physiologically impossible acts that are believed to have actually happened. I just can't grasp it or buy into it, for more reasons than I could list here.

Agreed! I went to sunday school for maybe 5 or 6 years, but I never quite bought it. They all just struck me as stories, as fables. So much so that for years I kept mixing up which stories were biblical and which weren't. I could never remember where I read about David and Goliath, for example. But I'm a born skeptic and cynic, so I think I was never meant for religion.

[Fallen_Horse]

IMO atheism is nearly as bad as believing in a religion. Since we humans have no real idea how we got started and where everything came from, the choice to not believe in a God is nearly a religious belief in itself. I think that the truth of the matter is that there could be a God, there could be many Gods, or there could be something entirely different. Closing off any of those possibilities doesn't make sense to me. The Bible is obviously folly and entirely rubbish, the Qur'an goes on a bit better but it has it's fallacies as well. No religious book written today can accurately explain a way to live or a way to act. I'm proud to be a confused agnostic!

[Richard]

I think that most atheists are open to actual evidence, something which religion has lacked so far. Atheists who are not open to actual evidence - I'd say they are slightly closed-minded. However, given that there has been no evidence whatsoever I think that it makes more sense to be closed-minded and say that God does not exist, than it does to be closed-minded and say one does.

 

I generally call myself agnostic, just to get rid of any confusion - I am open to evidence. But I haven't seen any evidence, and religion makes no sense to me at the moment

[Mik]

I see where you're coming from but, my point is that religion is ridiculous to begin with and that finding "truth" within a religion that has a God, still isn't true since God does not exist. Therefore, since belief in God is nullified, belief in the religion based around that God is also nullified and untrue.

 

 

Hi Robert! I am a Christian and I do believe there is a God. It is more than a belief of mine because I know he is in my heart. How do I know he exists? It is not from bible teaching. It is not from what others tell me. It is from what he has shown me in my life. One small example is every time I tithe. I can have very little in my checking account, give 10% as an offering, and every time it comes back to me without fail. A check for something will arrive in the mail. A bill that I thought had to be paid somehow is mysteriously taken care of. I used to be "all about me". I try to be all about HIM every day. It is a hard thing to do since I can't see him physically. I just have faith that he is there.

 

Let's just say that God doesn't exist since I have never seen him. Let's just say that all of the faith that I have placed in him was misguided. Am I harming anyone? I honestly don't believe so. I don't try to push my faith on anyone. The way I lived my life in the past was harmful to myself. My faith and belief in God has made me a better person today. I am by no means perfect at all. I am happier today to have him in my life. I could go on and on about how my life is better now. I can't physically introduce you to God. I can only share how he has helped me in my life. (I would love to share by the way).

 

I am really not trying to start a debate or upset anyone by sharing my personal beliefs. Just like I am sure you aren't trying to upset anyone by sharing yours. I believe everyone on this forum are very loving individuals. It is shown by everyone's respect for life. My question is how can anyone prove that God does not exist?

Good post. Whether God exists or not (which I personally believe he does), most of the 'disprovals' in themselves are pretty nonsensical to me; as are the desparately drawn paralells with religion and violence; Ive yet to meet an atheists who doesnt deny that any anti religious persecutions by secular governments were a fault of atheism/absence of religion and most will try to find God in an violent situation when any theological motivation is so conspicuously absent. Good, generous deeds done by religious believers or nonprofit religious organisations will be passed off as coincidental with religion or believers selfishly looking for a ticket to heaven; which clearly shows lack of understanding.

 

Even the most hardline, fundamental atheist (who lets face it really is the same as a religious fanatic minus the belief in God) will claim that atheism isnt a religion, and to an extent they're right but the so called 'new atheism' draws many parallels with a cult.

 

If a Muslim or Christian book or website labelled itself openly as 'anti infidel, disbeliever' or whatever, atheists would come down on it like a sack of bricks, refering to it as a terrorist, fundamentalist etc etc site but so many atheists now happily refer to themselves as being 'antitheists' anti faith etc etc; and unfortunately (not all; i personally dont think Richard Dawkins is a bad person) many of them happen to be phenominally obnoxious people; the results you'll get after googling new atheism or better still surfing youtube are a tribute to that. Some of these losers will even copy and paste their rant against religion onto nearly video on the site! Even borat and ali g videos are full of comments from ignoramouses saying 'GOD IS A LIE BLAH BLAH BLAH'!!!

 

atheist caricatures of everyday theists are also appallingly innacurate. sure, the atheists doesnt imagine literally every christian to be a gay basher, each muslim to be a suicide bomber etc, but so many atheists will swear that each Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Sikh etc loathes the others religions, swears it is completely a load of rubbish and is at the throats of other believers but the truth is is that most believers have respect for other religions; and sure some theological and maybe the odd ethical disagreement but find much more common ground with one another then those with no religion.

 

Also the really smug labels atheists give themselves are kinda annoying; some may deserve the self proclaimed title of 'logical freethinker' others dont; some atheist arguments might be logical which isnt to say that I agree with them but other atheists schools of thought, generally ones featured in the 'new atheism' er religion....I mean well whatever they want to call it are just as silly as those of any primitive preacher.

[Vegan Joe]

Giving and volunteering, by the numbers

 

How do religious and secular people vary in their charitable behavior? To answer this, I turn to data collected expressly to explore patterns in American civic life. The Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (sccbs) was undertaken in 2000 by researchers at universities throughout the United States and the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research. The data consist of nearly 30,000 observations drawn from 50 communities across the United States and ask individuals about their “civic behavior,” including their giving and volunteering during the year preceding the survey.

 

From these data, I have constructed two measures of religious participation. First, the group I refer to as “religious” are the respondents that report attending religious services every week or more often. This is 33 percent of the sample. Second, the group I call “secular” report attending religious services less than a few times per year or explicitly say they have no religion. These people are 26 percent of the sample (implying that those who practice their religion occasionally make up 41 percent of the sample). The sccbs asked respondents whether and how much they gave and volunteered to “religious causes” or “non-religious charities” over the previous 12 months. Across the whole population, 81 percent gave, while 57 percent volunteered.

 

The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.

 

Socioeconomically, the religious and secular groups are similar in some ways and different in others. For example, there is little difference between the groups in income (both have average household incomes around $49,000) or education level (20 percent of each group holds a college degree). On the other hand, the secular group is disproportionately male (49 percent to 32 percent), unmarried (58 percent to 40 percent), and young (42 to 49 years old, on average). In addition, the sccbs data show that religion and secularism break down on ideological lines: Religious people are 38 percentage points more likely to say they are conservative than to say they are liberal (57 percent to 19 percent). In contrast, secular people are 13 points more likely to say they are liberal than to say they are conservative (42 percent to 29 percent).

 

It is possible, of course, that the charity differences between secular and religious people are due to these nonreligious socioeconomic differences. To investigate this possibility, I used a statistical procedure called probit regression to examine the role of religious practice in isolation from all other relevant demographic characteristics: political beliefs, income (and hence, indirectly, the tax incentives for giving), education level, gender, age, race, marital status, and area of residence. The data show that if two people — one religious and the other secular — are identical in every other way, the secular person is 23 percentage points less likely to give than the religious person and 26 points less likely to volunteer.

 

Note that neither political ideology nor income is responsible for much of the charitable differences between secular and religious people. For example, religious liberals are 19 points more likely than secular liberals to give to charity, while religious conservatives are 28 points more likely than secular conservatives to do so. In other words, religious conservatives (who give and volunteer at rates of 91 percent and 67 percent) appear to differ from secular liberals (who give and volunteer at rates of 72 percent and 52 percent) more due to religion than to politics. Similarly, giving differences do not disappear when income is neutralized. This should not be particularly surprising, however, because the sccbs data show practically no income differences between the groups. Furthermore, research on philanthropy has consistently shown that the poor tend to give more frequently — and a higher percentage of their incomes — than the middle class. For example, economist Charles Clotfelter and others have shown that the poor tend to give a proportion of their income to charity that is comparable to the giving proportion of the very wealthy — and nearly twice that of the middle class.2 (This seems to be true only for the working poor, however. Welfare support appears to depress giving substantially.3)

 

Charity differences between religious and secular people persist if we look at the actual amounts of donations and volunteering. Indeed, measures of the dollars given and occasions volunteered per year produce a yawning gap between the groups. The average annual giving among the religious is $2,210, whereas it is $642 among the secular. Similarly, religious people volunteer an average of 12 times per year, while secular people volunteer an average of 5.8 times. To put this into perspective, religious people are 33 percent of the population but make 52 percent of donations and 45 percent of times volunteered. Secular people are 26 percent of the population but contribute 13 percent of the dollars and 17 percent of the times volunteered.

 

These differences hardly change when we consider them in isolation from the other demographics, using a statistical technique called tobit regression. Religious practice by itself is associated with $1,388 more given per year than we would expect to see from a secular person (with the same political views, income, education, age, race, and other characteristics), as well as with 6.5 more occasions of volunteering.

 

Some people might object to my conflation here of religious and nonreligious charity. One might argue, for example, that religious charity is more likely to take place for non-altruistic reasons than is nonreligious giving and volunteering: Religious people might give because of social pressure, for personal gain (such as stashing away rewards in Heaven), or to finance the services that they themselves consume, such as sacramental activities. Therefore, disparities in charity might disappear when we only consider explicitly nonreligious giving and volunteering. The sccbs data do not support this hypothesis, however: Religious people are more generous than secular people with nonreligious causes as well as with religious ones. While 68 percent of the total population gives (and 51 percent volunteers) to nonreligious causes each year, religious people are 10 points more likely to give to these causes than secularists (71 percent to 61 percent) and 21 points more likely to volunteer (60 percent to 39 percent). For example, religious people are 7 points more likely than secularists to volunteer for neighborhood and civic groups, 20 points more likely to volunteer to help the poor or elderly, and 26 points more likely to volunteer for school or youth programs. It seems fair to say that religion engenders charity in general — including nonreligious charity.

 

One might also posit that informal giving (say, to family and friends) by secularists could offset charity to established causes by religious people. My own research, however, makes this look improbable. Using 1999 data on individuals from the Bureau of Labor Standards, I found that, for most people, formal and informal charity are not substitutes for each other. On the contrary, people who give formally are 21 percentage points more likely than those who do not to also give informally. That is, informal giving does not explain the underlying discrepancy; it compounds it.4

[robert]

It still doesn't mean there is a powerful white man in the sky listening to our dreams and answering our requests for new cars or a hotter girlfriend.

 

We all know there is only one powerful white man in the sky who listens to our wishes and his name is Santa!

[Vegan Joe]

It still doesn't mean there is a powerful white man in the sky listening to our dreams and answering our requests for new cars or a hotter girlfriend.

 

We all know there is only one powerful white man in the sky who listens to our wishes and his name is Santa!

Hail Santa,

Amen

[robert]

I knew we could agree on something!

 

[hsorlando]

Ok, I probably shouldn't post, but I will anyway! lol.

I believe that there is one God, not many. I don't believe that there are different Gods for different religions. I believe that people try to personalize God, and that's impossible, because God is not a person. Whether you're Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Hindu, or even Atheist, that just because you believe something different about God, even that He doesn't exist, doesn't mean that there are different God's as the One God is all good. I will most likely get many debates with this post, but I'm just expressing what I have witnessed in my life so far. God doesn't know evil, he doesn't create evil. I know that bad things inevitably happen, but that doesn't mean God is punishing us. When it comes to the Bible you can either believe the first chaper of Genesis about creation, or the second. But both can't be true, because they are complete opposites. If anyone wants to know my beliefs they can check out ChristianScience.com. And no it isn't Scientology! Just because I posted this doesn't mean I want a fight, I'm just tired of the misinformation out there.

Edited November 16, 2008 by hsorlando

[bodybag]

I've been an atheist for most of my 40 years and an agnostic since I was 5 years old. The problem I have with many religious people is they are trying to impose their beliefs on others and turn the US into a theocracy. It's not just the Christian Religious Right. There are many Liberal Christian Democrat social conservative theocrats in the US.

 

They want to change public policy deny women reproductive rights, oppose gay marriage, bring prayer back into public schools, censor the arts, music, literature, film, etc... Historically Christians and Muslims are imperialist. European Jews became imperalist in the 1940's. The secular religions of Marxist-Leninsm and Psychology is a replacement for people who can't think for themselves or come to their own conclusions.

 

Can I prove God does not exist? I have more important things to occupy my mind with than fairy tales and mythology. I think religion is anti-intellectual.

Edited November 16, 2008 by bodybag

[Vegan Joe]

The problem I have with many religious people is they are trying to impose their beliefs on others and turn the US into a theocracy.

I guess the same could be said of the Athiest. Like I said before. "Righteous indignation knows no bounds, be it religious zealot or atheist"

Kinda like two blind people having a stare down. Niether can tell if the other guy blinked, and niether is going to admit it.

[RawVgn]

I'd be hard pressed to find many things more TRUE than comfort and hope-compassion, forgiveness, and love come to mind. All central themes of most religions. How can personifying and symbolizing benevolent beliefs, so that they live in the forefront of our minds, and that enrich our humanity, be untrue?

 

A well constructed deity is a symbol, the personification of cherished values and beliefs, a figurative representation of much that is dear or significant in our minds. You might as well say you don't believe in verbs as say you don't believe in figures.

[Vegan Joe]

I'd be hard pressed to find many things more TRUE than comfort and hope-compassion, forgiveness, and love come to mind. All central themes of most religions. How can personifying and symbolizing benevolent beliefs, so that they live in the forefront of our minds, and that enrich our humanity, be untrue?

 

A well constructed deity is a symbol, the personification of cherished values and beliefs, a figurative representation of much that is dear or significant in our minds. You might as well say you don't believe in verbs as say you don't believe in figures.

Awesome words RawVgn.

[bodybag]

BANNED CARTOON OF MORMONS GHOST SPIRIT DEMONIC SATANISM KIDS

What's this crap about the negro race?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS7PJLxjBNo

[bodybag]

Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology

http://www.xenu.net/