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Patrick
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DV, I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style.

Ugh, this thread is making me susceptible to autism. You hear sarcasm in her writing, Mr. "I guess the articles haven't told you anything"?

 

And whether or not you care for wikipedia itself, the sources referenced in the thiomersal controversy article are quite extensive and, more impressively, many are from peer-reviewed journals. I haven't seen you provide anything of the sort.

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DV, I hear a bit of sarcasm in your writing. I was and am not at all offended by your style.

Ugh, this thread is making me susceptible to autism. You hear sarcasm in her writing, Mr. "I guess the articles haven't told you anything"?

 

And whether or not you care for wikipedia itself, the sources referenced in the thiomersal controversy article are quite extensive and, more impressively, many are from peer-reviewed journals. I haven't seen you provide anything of the sort.

 

Patrick, thanks for debating so civily (is that a word?) in this very sensitive subject.

 

I do see both sides of this argument and for me the jury is still out. It doesen't mean I would hesitate to vaccinate my child, but my best friend and another very close friend have autism on the male side and they are being very careful about the vaccinations and are very concerned.

 

We have alot to learn on this subject still. I didn't read through the thread in its entirety, but isn't there just one vaccine in particular that causes the contraversy? Not all of them?

 

What if someone chooses not to do it. Are the kids still allowed in school? From what I understand it's a prerequisite to entering any public school for children

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It varies state by state. In a lot of states, including Oregon, you just check a box claiming a religious exemption for the kids when the time comes to do the paperwork for school, even through university. Then if there's an outbreak, they contact the families so they won't come to school and risk exposure.

 

Somewhere up this thread someone mentioned something about some tragic polio outbreak... I understand that most of those old school outbreaks were due to a live (attenuated, weakened) vaccine being given. When they did that, the virus would get excreted live intact by vaccinated kids. The vaccinations actually helped spread the virus to unvaccinated kids. The research I read on that era of attenuated vaccine said even regularly chlorinated pool water wouldn't necessarily kill it...

 

Vaccines are big BIG business. Just like a lot of pharmaceutical drugs and products of other big business lobbies, much of the science, testing, safety and effectiveness claims around their products have to be scrutinized extremely closely.

 

For instance, as vegans, we probably all know something about the questionable yet govermentally thumbs upped claim that cow lactation secretions are a great source of usable calcium for humans. The same sociopolitical and economic processes that lead to all the "science" that shows how great cow milk is for us are the same processes that led to this thing with the live polio vaccine. It's the same thing that leads us to now require our kids to be vaccinated against mild illnesses like chicken pox, and to be injected with relatively ineffective vaccines against whooping cough that are filled with potential toxins.

 

Personally, I think it's naive to believe that big pharmaceuticals are out to make our lives better. They are out to make massive profit. Period. (Just like Texaco and Chevron aren't there to make our transportation methods just a little handier and the USDA isn't there to make sure that happy happy cows don't go extinct.) That includes big pharma mandating kids be injected with garbage, if it makes them money.

 

I think the best we can all do at this point around the issue is to educate ourselves as best we can, talk to people with informed, alternative views grounded in scientific method and experience, and not judge other peoples' decisions on stuff like this. These are confusing times. Big corporations who share board members with other big corporations and have big economic agendas have immense power.

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Hi veggiceprincess,

 

thanks for the kind words. I reckon Bruce and DV appear to be very touchy on this matter. As I said before, I am not against vaccines, but the crap that is in them. Although many, if not all vaccines are suspect or should be scrutinized to its final drop. According to Bruce, I have not illustrated anything substantial in regards to this topic. Well, if citing several articles and websites, in particular one http://www.wnho.net/vaccine_coverup.htm does not tickle anyone’s mind...well...that's okay. It's okay to be on polar opposites (all I am trying to do is raise a question and not a heated discussion). But I gather Bruce and DV are taking this rather very personally. Who knows why? Makes no difference to me.

veggicepriincess, yes you are correct, but I think that's the problem in that these vaccinations are forced on babies. And threatening parents with the notion that their children will not be able to attend school. What a crock. That too me is fishy. In Europe certain insurance companies are even offering people a monetary incentive just to get inoculated. Now, if that isn't strange and not to mention corrupt then I don't know what is. I realize I have now addressed another matter (which I will not discuss here) and that is a financial incentive for the Rx companies and their affiliates.

 

Another aspect: A lot of children contracted measles, mumps or other illnesses well after they have been vaccinated. I'd rather not vaccinate a child, I'd rather have them battle the measles or mumps naturally as youngsters because only then will their immune system be able to defend itself and build immunity against it. Now that is true immunity. It has been written and studied time and time again that vaccinations are not a preventable measure for anything. In fact, many studies (for example take the whooping cough syndrome in Japan) which has been halted for babies who are less than two years old. Before, when babies were vaccinated with the whooping cough, they were dying left and right. Now, the Japanese govt. has insisted that children under the age of two will not receive this vaccine. Only after the 24 or somewhere along 28 months would they be vaccinated. Golly, and the mortality rate of these young children has decreased close to 100%. I am not a doctor or an epidemiologist, but now isn't that interesting? Certainly I'll get a rebuttal by Bruce and/or DV, and that's okay. The argument to inoculate a child with possibly 17 shots before they turn two years old is not only irresponsible, but absolutely insane. Their immune system is not equipped to handle the onslaught. I'm not riding anyone’s (for instance Dr. Balylock's) coat tail, I'm just looking at this logically. To some, this may be illogical, but as I said earlier that's okay and who knows some of us may be right or wrong. But DV mentioned earlier in the thread, that she wouldn't allow her child attend school with some children who have not been vaccinated. There is no merit to her point. And yes I know DV, you will counter by listing a website or a CDC article that states how important it is or how detrimental it could be to a vaccinated child if they come in contact with not vaccinated children. How about drinking from same bottles or biting the same sandwich. Do you think a child can pass illnesses this way? I guess we should just then join the LOST crew and live on an island.

Also, to suggest that the GWS is not caused by vaccines is a rather touchy subject, but I would recommend to some why not saunter down to medical facilities where folks come back from unfamiliar territories and see for themselves and actually interview them. How they lost their hair, contracted leukemia, have deformed babies, passed diseases on to their spouses, etc, etc. "Oh it can't be from that." Certainly depleted uranium is not only a major cause for concern, but one of the culprits.

This may be a bad analogy, but I'll throw it in there: It's like when tragedy struck in New York on 11 Sept. 01 and the people as well as rescue workers contracted various horrible illnesses from the debris (asbestos, and other crap) and are now left standing with medical bills upon bills and told "oh it can't be from that." This "oh it can't be from that" is the same reasoning a lot of medical professionals mention when they hear concerned parents about the problems their children are experiencing from vaccines. The only problem is is that babies can not talk and if they could they'd probably tell the doctor to stick the needle elsewhere. In any case, this is the last thread for this discussion I am adding, so I'll let Bruce and DV have their final say.

 

veggieprincess: I am sorry to hear the problems your family or friends are suffering with their children. But I would seek other solutions to treating such devastating symptoms. Ritalin, I would definitely look very skeptical toward.

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I have seen folks argue that they would not let their children be around unvaccinated children. Thats fine and all but if your vaccines are so good, where's the harm?

 

Also I refused to get vaccinated as soon as I had the legal authority to do so. I've not had to be vaccinated recently until I moved to IL, and I told the school no; filed a religious objection (which they didn't want to accept since I didnt use terms like god and what not, but that's their problem). From what I understand some vaccines have animal products in them, and the one the school wanted me to have had some egg stuff in it. I reject those. I'm not opposed to the ones without animal stuff on a vegan level.

 

 

I drink enough green tea and emergen-c powder that i'm immune to everything. I'm also not cool so I don't worry about social and communicable diseases as I'm never exposed. I only wash fruits and vegetables part of the time-all natural health, baby!

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The vast majority of notable medicines/vaccines have been tested on tens, hundreds or thousands of animals.Some are tested on smaller animals but most are tested on mammals including monkeys, rats & guinia pigs, and cats & dogs.

 

Whilst doctors say welfare standards are good in animal testing, especially compared to animal farming, unfortunatley pain, severe discomfort & death are the inevitable result of putting chemicals in animals eyes etc.

 

But unsurprisingly, DV seems to be in love with vaccines & medicines & see's nothing wrong with them.She even did her studies in a related field of research.Laughably, she sees no problem with being so vehemently pro-science & pro-medicine despite the fact that she is also a vegan!

 

Patrick, you will learn, if you continue to debate this point or any other points with DV, that there is little point wasting your time.She will take the incorrect side of an argument, then not listen to yours, then get sarcastic or abusive.Its a pattern as regular as the tides.

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Patrick, "touchy" I am not. However, you appear to be getting a bit emotional concerning this topic so I'll let it drop.

 

Dan, there is really no point in jumping into a thread for the sole purpose of insulting a member unless you want to appear like a jerk.

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Hi DaN,

 

You are right. And that's why I am concluding this thread. I had that same thought way earlier in the back of my mind, but didn't want to address it.

Interesting characterization about citing emotions.

 

Cyber-hear and read you around.

 

Be zestful and happy and emotional when need be.

 

Patrick

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Dan, there is really no point in jumping into a thread for the sole purpose of insulting a member unless you want to appear like a jerk.

 

I have read the entire thread from start to finish, so I am not jumping in 'like a jerk'

 

Just becasue I havn't posted, doesnt mean I'm not around.It just seems to me that you appear to have no real logic behind your approval of modern science, when it is all tested on animals? They are at real odds with eachother, dont you think?

 

I am not critcising you, just asking a question?

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Just have to share here...vaccination will be proved in the near future to have been one of the most henious crimes committed against humanity. Do your scientific research. I have, and have had classes in virology as well....read about the chain of immunity natural to the body and research how vaccination works. Research the hidden politicial and social agendas of the pharmaceutical industry and their lackeys-teh CDC, WHO, AMA, JAMA, et el. Do some REAL research, not just sound bite from big pharma PR, and you will be utterly shocked that people still subject their children to this genocidal campaign.

 

ALL of the epidemics-including the great influenza epidemic in the early 1900's, were CAUSED by vaccination. HIV, SARS, influenza...they are all manufactured via bioweaponry programs. Gulf war syndrome, and now the cervial vaccine...very, very bad. Federal Courts have already ruled that vaccines create autism.

 

Research Dr. Mercola's stuff, and many other sources. Google it. This information is widely available now.

 

I have a degree in premed and worked in the medical field for many years, am a mom with 2 kids will will NEVER be vaccinated, and have studied this subject from all angles. Information is the key to sovereignty. Do not willingly surrender yourself to having your physiology controlled or raped. If you do, only YOU are responsible for the outcome....Blessings~

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For those of you who want to believe in flying saucers and conspiracy theories - go for it. Trying to have a discussion about anything related to science or reality on this forum is useless. I'll see you all in that most evil of institutions, the hospital, when your immune system, pseudoscience and amulets fail you.

 

For those of you who stumble across this thread and are swayed in any direction, I leave you with some reading that will help you to use your critical thinking skills:

 

The Anti-Vaccination Movement - with REAL references by REAL scientists and doctors who have REAL degrees and have done REAL research!

 

Measles on the Rise in the UK - I bet the parents of the first dead child are proud of themselves for avoiding those horrible vaccinations.

 

Why People Believe Weird Things

 

How We Know What Isn't So

 

RateMD - actual patients of Mercola tell you what he's really like. Big pharma bad, big supplement good?

 

Mercola - If it Quacks Like a Duck

 

The Quack Files

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Listen, the last time I talked to Elvis, he landed his translucent, golden UFO in my backyard. We drank codeine cough syrup from cut crystal wine glasses. He laid some killer chlorella laced with raw toast and Maui wowee (circa 1972) on me. As he shot back into the eternal cosmos, I noticed that my dandruff had been cured, but I still have a craving for peanut butter banana sandwiches on Wonder bread.

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For those of you who stumble across this thread and are swayed in any direction, I leave you with some reading that will help you to use your critical thinking skills:

 

The Anti-Vaccination Movement - with REAL references by REAL scientists and doctors who have REAL degrees and have done REAL research!

Well, I hardly see what doctors and fancy degrees and research have to do with medicine and science. I will continue to get my medical advice from soothsayers, RFK Jr, and the local chirurgical bloodletters, thank you very much. I bid you good day, madam.

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Do your scientific research. I have, and have had classes in virology as well....read about the chain of immunity natural to the body and research how vaccination works. Research the hidden politicial and social agendas of the pharmaceutical industry and their lackeys-teh CDC, WHO, AMA, JAMA, et el. Do some REAL research, not just sound bite from big pharma PR, and you will be utterly shocked that people still subject their children to this genocidal campaign. ALL of the epidemics-including the great influenza epidemic in the early 1900's, were CAUSED by vaccination. HIV, SARS, influenza...they are all manufactured via bioweaponry programs. Gulf war syndrome, and now the cervial vaccine...very, very bad. Federal Courts have already ruled that vaccines create autism.

Polio was caused by vaccination? By vaccination + time machine, I guess? Typhus? Plague? Cholera? Smallpox? As to the Spanish Flu epidemic, that was a theory first put forth by Eleanora McBean (PhD and ND, but not MD) based on her claim that the flu only affected the vaccinated, as far as she knew. Of course, this was 30 years ago, so maybe we can forgive her for completely ignoring the huge Asian, African, and Native American populations wiped out by the disease, despite not having access to vaccinations. And we certainly can't blame her for not expecting the flu's genome to be mapped by 2005, pegging it conclusively as an avian flu variant.

 

Yes, vaccines have side-effects, as do many substances we put in our body, including plenty of natural or "holistic" remedies. And yes, some people are going to get sick or die. But overall, they save many times more lives. Millions upon millions more than they cost. This doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make them safer, or to ignore possible side-effects, but calling them genocidal is just fear-mongering. For example, we have one case in which the evidence is sufficient to show that vaccinations aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disease, causing manifestation of symptoms associated with autism. That's the federal court case you mention above. We also have many, many international studies showing no causal connection whatsoever. To me, that says that the vaccines are nearly always safe, but with isolated cases of serious side-effects. It warrants research, but not cessation of vaccinations.

 

I have a degree in premed and worked in the medical field for many years, am a mom with 2 kids will will NEVER be vaccinated, and have studied this subject from all angles. Information is the key to sovereignty. Do not willingly surrender yourself to having your physiology controlled or raped. If you do, only YOU are responsible for the outcome....Blessings~

I agree that information is the key here, but you know who else have degrees in pre-med and work in the medical field? Doctors and researchers whose studies and knowledge you choose to ignore. I don't doubt that your heart is in the right place, but you're cherry-picking your information just as badly as you accuse us of doing. How do you explain away the studies listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy? Feel free to ignore the wikipedia content itself and just go to the references. There are plenty from the UK, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, the US, etc. Are they all part of the conspiracy? What research are you looking at that is so strong as to discredit all of the opposing evidence?

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