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are naturally synthesised protein sufficient?


glassorion
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I have been researching Raw diets for a while and am very motivated by Raw athletes like durianrider and others.

untill recently i was supplementing with protein powders to ensure that i was getting enough protein (my goal is to increase lean muscle mass). i have, starting a month ago, stopped all supplementation and am eating 80% raw. I make sure to eat foods with good amino acid profiles. my question is, if i keep replenishing my amino acid pools, will my body synthesize the requisite amount of protein? or do you guys feel that im starving my body of this macro? any advice would be appreciated.

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It's difficult to give a worthwhile opinion without more information. For instance, how tall are you? What do you weigh? What is your lean body mass? What is your maintenance calorie range? What amount of protein/carbs/fats has allowed you to maintain/lose/gain lean mass?

 

In order to know is something is working, you need a "norm" to compare with it. Additionally, metabolism is not just about diet. You must also consider activity level, amount of rest, over/undertraining and timing between meals. All these thing matter, not just ingested protein.

 

Good luck with your goals!

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I know all raw foodists do not believe the same things, but for most of them it seems like the point of avoiding cooking is to prevent the destruction of "something" vital in their food. Hence terms like "living foods".

 

If boiling or baking would destroy this "something vital" in foods wouldn't the intense amount of processing to extract protein from a food to make protein powder also destroy that "something vital"?

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It's difficult to give a worthwhile opinion without more information. For instance, how tall are you? What do you weigh? What is your lean body mass? What is your maintenance calorie range? What amount of protein/carbs/fats has allowed you to maintain/lose/gain lean mass?

 

In order to know is something is working, you need a "norm" to compare with it. Additionally, metabolism is not just about diet. You must also consider activity level, amount of rest, over/undertraining and timing between meals. All these thing matter, not just ingested protein.

 

Good luck with your goals!

 

Here are my stats:

5'10.5"

145 lbs

lean body weight is 136.67 pounds

maintenance calorie range: 2500 - 2700

Till i made the switch i was consuming approx 90 - 100 gms of protein / 100 gms of CHO / >10 gms of fats

my weight leveled off at the mid 140s with this macro profile - i was seeing strength gains though

 

my activity level is the same as before - lift 3x a week. soccer 1x a week (about 2 hrs at a time). i have been consciously trying to get sufficient rest and have been doing well in that department.

 

what i am wondering is whether my body will naturally compensate for the lack of directly ingested proteins (i now est that i consume <20 gms of proteins). i still want to increase size and strength as far as goals are concerned.

what are your thoughts?

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I know all raw foodists do not believe the same things, but for most of them it seems like the point of avoiding cooking is to prevent the destruction of "something" vital in their food. Hence terms like "living foods".

 

If boiling or baking would destroy this "something vital" in foods wouldn't the intense amount of processing to extract protein from a food to make protein powder also destroy that "something vital"?

 

 

Exactly! thats why i have totally cut out processed protein sources. but im worried that my body will not be able to make up the balance through synthesis through amino acids and i wont add mass/ muscles will degenerate. so in your experience, do you see the body making up to that extent (i lift quite heavy/mostly compounds etc).

 

BTW thanks for the link. Its proving to be quite indispensable.

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It's difficult to give a worthwhile opinion without more information. For instance, how tall are you? What do you weigh? What is your lean body mass? What is your maintenance calorie range? What amount of protein/carbs/fats has allowed you to maintain/lose/gain lean mass?

 

In order to know is something is working, you need a "norm" to compare with it. Additionally, metabolism is not just about diet. You must also consider activity level, amount of rest, over/undertraining and timing between meals. All these thing matter, not just ingested protein.

 

Good luck with your goals!

 

Here are my stats:

5'10.5"

145 lbs

lean body weight is 136.67 pounds

maintenance calorie range: 2500 - 2700

Till i made the switch i was consuming approx 90 - 100 gms of protein / 100 gms of CHO / >10 gms of fats

my weight leveled off at the mid 140s with this macro profile - i was seeing strength gains though

 

my activity level is the same as before - lift 3x a week. soccer 1x a week (about 2 hrs at a time). i have been consciously trying to get sufficient rest and have been doing well in that department.

 

what i am wondering is whether my body will naturally compensate for the lack of directly ingested proteins (i now est that i consume <20 gms of proteins). i still want to increase size and strength as far as goals are concerned.

what are your thoughts?

20 g/day can't be nearly enough. ESPECIALLY if it's low-quality vegetable proteins. Spinach, wheat germ, and hemp all have strong protein profiles.

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Enzymes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzymes

 

Protein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein

 

Enzymes check it out ... they are proteins. People don't need protein... what they need is amino acids. Proteins are made up of amino acids that need to be broken down by the body into amino acids this is what I researched. The best way to get your protein is not cooking your food and keep the enzymes in tact aka group of amino acids. Which is in all living foods. Raw nuts raw seeds are a great source of raw protein if you convince your self it is the protein you need and all veggies have protein as well. There are amino acids in most foods because most food has protein. I guess most of us were told that protein is essential for living... protein is the middle man.

 

Cooking is not all bad but it helps to give your body a raw source of enzyme filled food which aids in breaking down these proteins, so it does not have to make the pancreas do all the work as well.

 

I use to think the raw food stuff was BS... and it did not matter. In the past few months I have been researching with a skeptics mind and I realize that we really need to eat more raw foods. That does not mean you have to go all raw or that you have to go out tomorrow and buy a dehydrator or go raw gormet style... Just include more raw fruits or raw veggies.

 

My thoughts on the subject

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An important function of enzymes is in the digestive systems of animals. Enzymes such as amylases and proteases break down large molecules (starch or proteins, respectively) into smaller ones, so they can be absorbed by the intestines. Starch molecules, for example, are too large to be absorbed from the intestine, but enzymes hydrolyse the starch chains into smaller molecules such as maltose and eventually glucose, which can then be absorbed. Different enzymes digest different food substances. In ruminants which have a herbivorous diets, microorganisms in the gut produce another enzyme, cellulase to break down the cellulose cell walls of plant fiber

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Enzymes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzymes

 

Protein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein

 

Enzymes check it out ... they are proteins. People don't need protein... what they need is amino acids. Proteins are made up of amino acids that need to be broken down by the body into amino acids this is what I researched. The best way to get your protein is not cooking your food and keep the enzymes in tact aka group of amino acids. Which is in all living foods.

My thoughts on the subject

 

So what your saying (which is what i got from all the Raw food material out there) is that as long as you have sufficient amino acid sources, you dont need extra proteins?

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Exactly! thats why i have totally cut out processed protein sources. but im worried that my body will not be able to make up the balance through synthesis through amino acids and i wont add mass/ muscles will degenerate.

 

I have heard stories of this happening.

 

I work with a gorgeous Raw Food personal trainer at the gym that I work at who told me she tried to put on muscle with pure raw foods only and all she got was skinny. She said she wasn't able to add any muscle tone until she incorporated in some Brown Rice Protein powder. And now she is BEAUTIFULLY sculpted and has a very enviable body with rounded shoulder caps and beautiful muscle tone

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Glassorion, looking at your stats, you appear to be a somewhat slender man with somewhere around 6-7% body fat - which is great - good work! If you're looking to add lean mass with a raw diet, I'm not sure there is anyone here who can help you by example. All of the raw foodists on this forum are either slim like yourself or they built mass on a regular vegan diet and then went raw. Or they're neither but have opinions on the subject (as happens with any forum). The only large ones I know of use concentrated forms of "raw" foods such as hemp powder or spirulina. I think Lean&Green may have built some mass after going raw, so he may be able to help you. He's held onto his mass after going raw from what I've seen.

 

Eating raw may be great for losing fat and muscle but it's possibly not as effective at building lean mass quickly (as compared to a regular vegan diet). Maybe you can just use a raw diet if you gain too much fat and use a regular diet for gains? Unless you have a burning desire to be a raw foodist, of course.

 

Overall, your protein intake is far too low and your fat intake may be hampering your body's transport of fat soluble vitamins and hormonal functions, amongst other functions. Fats, especially the essential fats such as omega 6s and 3s, are necessary. So, if you are taking in so little fat it's important that you are at least getting what's essential.

 

As for proteins vs. enzymes vs. amino acids - don't sweat it. The explanation in this link is not too complicated but very thorough. Enzymes are proteins. Like any other protein, when they reach your stomach the hydrochloric acid there starts to dismantle them so they can eventually be broken down into amino acids. Your body does not recognize plant enzymes as anything but a protein to be dismantled and used for food. You do not need to eat isolated amino acids. You can go to sources such as http://www.nutritiondata.com to look up the amino acid content in different foods if you think you are lacking any particular amino acid.

 

As for plant-based proteins, while all are "complete" there are some that have low levels of certain amino acids - such as lysine and methionine, for example. There are two ways of looking at this. You can combine foods that are higher in some amino acids with those that are higher in different amino acids to form a "complete" protein. However, this is not an exact science and you will still have an abundance of some amino acids (if you are eating enough protein) or a deficiency (if you are not eating enough protein). The easier way, IMO, to make sure you are getting enough of all the essential amino acids is to eat MORE THAN the suggested daily minimum of protein. This way, you'll still have an abundance of some amino acids but you will most likely meet the minimum intake of those amino acids which appear in smaller amounts in plant foods. Or, you can go the easiesgt way and eat a lot of soy and/or spirulina, which are both high in all essential amino acids. But that might not be the healthiest way to eat.

 

I hope that helped to answer some of your questions. Good luck with your goals!

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So what your saying (which is what i got from all the Raw food material out there) is that as long as you have sufficient amino acid sources, you dont need extra proteins?

 

What I am saying protein is like having a box of amino acids that your body has to basically like open that box (breaking it down) into what it needs. Meat Protein is really hard to extract the amino acids from. Plants and fruit specially eaten raw are simple for the body. Aka dead food not easy to breakdown and puts strain on your pancreas

 

Check out this simple video

http://video.about.com/nutrition/Enzymes-and-Digestion.htm

 

Some foods proteins are easy to breakdown... others are really hard. So the key is to eat foods that are raw and that are easy to breakdown.

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The problem with that video is there are no sources for the information and the misinformation. The idea that we are "overworking" our pancreas with modern cooked food is completely unfounded. Additionally, plant enzymes are denatured by hydrochloric acids, unlike our human enzymes which are specific to our bodies and therefore able to withstand the various environments of our GI tracts.

 

Here is an example of how digested enzymes work in the human body - the example being someone with blocked pancreatic ducts, someone with cystic fibrosis. No one has successfully treated cystic fibrosis by eating raw foods. (Indeed, even those who follow all treatments will eventually succumb to the disease as it affects more than just the pancreas.) Please note that some of the enzymes used by those with cystic fibrosis are coated or encapsulated to avoid being denatured by the hydrochloric acid of the stomach - as raw enzymes are denatured in the stomach. Additionally, plant enzymes are not used for treatment of CF - the enzymes are pig-derived for the most part, although there are some synthetic and even plant-derived enzymes tablets/capsules available now. Perhaps in the future there will be good synthetic enzymes just as we've managed to produce synthetic insulin. But don't look to raw plants as the enzyme answer. Plants do not have the mammalian digestive system so their enzymes do not substitute for ours. Raw plant enzymes are physiologically/chemically impossible of replacing those human digestive enzymes released by the pancreas).

 

(Full disclosure - I have a biology degree, undergrad and graduate nursing degrees, although CF is not my area of expertise. I understand that these concepts can appear more simple than they really are).

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