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How many grams of protein intake recommended


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Some of us believe that focusing on hypertrophy often leads to poor health.

 

No sarcasm, if you believe that then this forum probably isn't up your alley. Loads of raw boards out there.

 

The dietary school I belong to holds its beliefs as strongly as you hold yours.

 

It isn't the emotional strength of beliefs that count, but the evidence that can be reliably reproduced for a belief that counts.

 

Am I supposed to go dig up and repost all 100 plus journal articles and post them here?

 

If you make extreme claims that aren't backed up by facts that people are acquainted with, yes, you should have some evidence for what you write if you don't want people to disagree with you on a discussion board.

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LrnWithFn - consider why you strongly believe you can't build muscle being vegan. Notice you believe; not know. Beliefs often come from propoganda(like in bodybuilding magazines, meat industries/commercials, slowly swaying public perception)

 

I'd like to take this opportunity to say I agree with beforewisdom - Some people are saying things that aren't related to the original topic. One of them happens to be a raw-foodist, but he didnt mention raw - he only mentioned 10% protein; that's not synonimous with raw. Raw was first mentioned by beforewisdom:

There is a diet trend called raw foodism

The original poster didn't ask about that either.

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Some of us believe that focusing on hypertrophy often leads to poor health. And this website is about "bodybuilding AND fitness." IMO, anyone who sacrifices their health to obtain muscles bigger than needed for a great quality of life is making a mistake similiar to taking steroids.

I always knew you were here to provide support.

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Some schools of raw veganism, like the one I agree with, are predominantly science based. I earn a six figure income as a professional scientist and know good science when I see it. Imagining that ALL raw veganism is starry eyed new agism is misinformed.

 

All thoughts are beliefs. Some of you folks need some serious grounding in Philosophy 101!

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Some schools of raw veganism, like the one I agree with, are predominantly science based. I earn a six figure income as a professional scientist and know good science when I see it. Imagining that ALL raw veganism is starry eyed new agism is misinformed.

 

All thoughts are beliefs. Some of you folks need some serious grounding in Philosophy 101!

I can't hear anything that you say due to you bragging style.

i.e.

self proclamed intellectual

six figure income as a professional scientist.

 

not to mention denegrading other people.

i.e.

need some serious grounding in Philosophy 101

 

Not usually the style of someone who sits in the position you so discribed.

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Some schools of raw veganism, like the one I agree with, are predominantly science based. I earn a six figure income as a professional scientist and know good science when I see it. Imagining that ALL raw veganism is starry eyed new agism is misinformed.

 

All thoughts are beliefs. Some of you folks need some serious grounding in Philosophy 101!

 

That is all good stuff. I'm serious. It is all good stuff, but the burden of proof is upon you.

 

I've been a nutrition buff since I was 14. My vacations for the last few years have been mostly going to nutrition conferences where the speakers have been vegan medical professionals.....good ones who keep up on current research. At best, these professionals stay politely silent to/about raw foodists. There just isn't much out there in the literature. The best there has been were some small studies that showed some young raw foodists, slightly underweight, just getting by on the diet.

 

If there is a school of raw foodism based on scientific thinking, with evidence in scientific literature then my suggestion is for you to start publishing that information. Blogs are easy, you can start one in 15 min and they are free.

 

If you put up a web site with real references on it to real clinical literature I will take a look at it with an open mind.

 

Until then I just don't have a reason to see what you post to be any different from any other raw foodist fiction.

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Some schools of raw veganism, like the one I agree with, are predominantly science based. I earn a six figure income as a professional scientist and know good science when I see it. Imagining that ALL raw veganism is starry eyed new agism is misinformed.

I am the human incarnation of all the subconscious thoughts of society's best-educated nutrition scientists -- so I definitely know what I'm talking about -- and you're totally wrong. I assume that my qualifications absolve me of the need for evidence just as well as yours do, right?

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To answer the original topic, I'd recommend reading these:

 

"Protein Requirements for Strenght and Power Athletes" by Lyle McDonald

"Protein Controversies" by Lyle McDonald

 

Also, check out dr. John Berardi, he's a Ph.D. and one of the best in his field (sports nutrition).

 

Basically, it's quite difficult to overdose on protein (unless you're nailing 800g/day), so the more the better. This is especially true since we're vegans and most of the protein in our diet is more or less inferior to animal proteins. Also, make sure you eat LOADS of veggies and some fruits to bumper all the acid that forms with a higher protein consumption (not an issue at all, if you consume plenty of veggies and fruits).

 

Good luck!

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This is especially true since we're vegans and most of the protein in our diet is more or less inferior to animal proteins.!

 

That is only true if you don't compliment your proteins ( see "Diet For A Small Planet" by Frances Moore-Lappe):

 

whole grains + legumes

legumes + seeds

 

Back when most people never heard of the internet you could get on something called Usenet ( primative, non-gui based forums ) and find people who REALLY knew things to talk with. Authors, scientists, engineers, etc. I used to talk go Lyle Macdonald back in those days. Unlike 80% of the people on the web now, he knew what he was talking about. He is a researcher. He could provide citations. He was a research professional. He also has his biases. One of them is against veg*ism. Unless something was the best route for becoming as huge as IFBB contestants, he brushed it off as crap. He also had a bad attitude. I suspect from years of reading opinions from people reading pop "nutrition" books telling him things authoritatively as if they were as qualified as he was. Given the funky stuff I see posted to vegan forums I can now see where he was coming from.

 

What I am trying to say is to keep reading Lyle MacDonald's opinions, but take them with a little bit of salt. He doesn't consider too many things beyond how they serve lifting weights. Like everyone else he is right about some things and wrong about others, leaving it to you to figure out the later.

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That is only true if you don't compliment your proteins ( see "Diet For A Small Planet" by Frances Moore-Lappe):

 

whole grains + legumes

legumes + seeds

 

Back when most people never heard of the internet you could get on something called Usenet ( primative, non-gui based forums ) and find people who REALLY knew things to talk with. Authors, scientists, engineers, etc. I used to talk Lyle Macdonald in those days. Unlike 80% of the people on the web now, he knew what he was talking about. He is a researcher. He could provide citations. He also has his biases. One of them is against veg*ism. Unless something was the best route for becoming as huge as IFBB contestants he brushed it off as crap. He also had a bad attitude. I suspect from years of reading opinion from people reading pop "nutrition" books telling him things authoritatively. Given the funky stuff I see posted to vegan forums I can now see where he was coming from.

 

What I am trying to say is to keep reading Lyle MacDonald's opinions, but take them with a little bit of salt. He doesn't consider too many things beyond how they serve lifting weights. Like everyone else he is right about some things and wrong about others, leaving it to you to figure out the later.

 

I agree - always keep an open mind and never cross out the possibility of being wrong. Both McDonald and Berardi are rather obviously anti-veg*n, but I find their articles about nutrition and sports performance very informative and comprehensive. You just have to keep in mind that not everything that's optimal for lifting weights is necessarily optimal for health. But I think that most of the lifters on here already acknowledged that fact to themselves and made the decision to pursue what their already doing regardless. In my opinion, that's just life, anyway - it's extremely difficult to excel in a particular field while at the same time not sacrificing other things.

 

Also, I don't see why eating plenty of protein, loads of veggies/fruits and a little bit of healthy fats would be bad for health.

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To answer the original topic, I'd recommend reading these:

 

"Protein Requirements for Strenght and Power Athletes" by Lyle McDonald

"Protein Controversies" by Lyle McDonald

 

Also, check out dr. John Berardi, he's a Ph.D. and one of the best in his field (sports nutrition).

 

Basically, it's quite difficult to overdose on protein (unless you're nailing 800g/day), so the more the better. This is especially true since we're vegans and most of the protein in our diet is more or less inferior to animal proteins. Also, make sure you eat LOADS of veggies and some fruits to bumper all the acid that forms with a higher protein consumption (not an issue at all, if you consume plenty of veggies and fruits).

 

Good luck!

To counterbalance here's a good article by McDougall: Protein Overload.

Also, of course, The China Study is a good read.

I believe from what I've read during the years that overly processed food in any form will be harmful. There is a HUGE industry behind supplements and it might take awhile to know what have emerged as side effects in the labs when it comes to "fake" protein. This is, after all, a money making machine (from peoples desperation) that hardly has any regulation. It's gambling and noone knows how bad it might be and you can be sure that the people making the money won't tell you (in case they know).

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I believe from what I've read during the years that overly processed food in any form will be harmful. There is a HUGE industry behind supplements and it might take awhile to know what have emerged as side effects in the labs when it comes to "fake" protein. This is, after all, a money making machine (from peoples desperation) that hardly has any regulation. It's gambling and noone knows how bad it might be and you can be sure that the people making the money won't tell you (in case they know).

 

True - most of the calories, protein, carbs, fats, etc. in anyone's diet should come from whole foods. I wasn't arguing against that.

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"I believe from what I've read during the years that overly processed food in any form will be harmful. There is a HUGE industry behind supplements and it might take awhile to know what have emerged as side effects in the labs when it comes to "fake" protein. This is, after all, a money making machine (from peoples desperation) that hardly has any regulation. It's gambling and noone knows how bad it might be and you can be sure that the people making the money won't tell you (in case they know).

 

 

Do you think that "fake" meats, TVP, seitan, and tofu fit into this catagory of overly processed food?

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This is especially true since we're vegans and most of the protein in our diet is more or less inferior to animal proteins.!

 

That is only true if you don't compliment your proteins ( see "Diet For A Small Planet" by Frances Moore-Lappe):

 

whole grains + legumes

legumes + seeds

 

This has since then been refuted. Jeff Novick on the subject.

 

Offense.

 

That is a mistaken notion. The ADA Position Paper On Vegetarianism was cowritten by two prominent vegan nutrition authors. The Position Paper only states that complementing isn't necessary at every single meal for basic health. That is different from optimal health, optimal training results and getting optimal quality vegan protein. Most vegans are only looking for basic health so this point has often gotten confused over the years but you can find a copy of the position paper online.

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To counterbalance here's a good article by McDougall: Protein Overload.

Also, of course, The China Study is a good read.

I believe from what I've read during the years that overly processed food in any form will be harmful. There is a HUGE industry behind supplements and it might take awhile to know what have emerged as side effects in the labs when it comes to "fake" protein. This is, after all, a money making machine (from peoples desperation) that hardly has any regulation. It's gambling and noone knows how bad it might be and you can be sure that the people making the money won't tell you (in case they know).

 

Offense, I would be interested in your opinion of his fish & soy DVD. I'm too skeptical to buy it because of his anti-soy rant I heard at Summerfest. He may be right, but it is hard to take someone seriously when they talk about a food you have been eating for almost 30 years as being poisonous. It sounds like from his DVD he has a new opinion about soy that is more moderate, less hysterical. Again, I would be interested to hear your view about what McDougal has to say on that DVD.

 

Years ago, in that aforementioned usenet group with MacDonald and his crew ( also uber lifters and researchers ) one of his crew mentioned that he thought protein supplements ( for omnivores ) was unnecessary, that their place was as a convenience for bobybuilders who didn't want to always eat 100% right.

 

I think that is true of vegan bodybuilders as well.

 

To me the whole point of protein powders is to get more protein into your system while not putting in too many more calories. I have an occasional protein drink because no matter how much I work out I have a "fuel efficient" system that requires very little food, but I find I function best keeping my protein above a certain number. Then there are the fitness and figure competitors who need more protein for fewer calories to get cut.

 

However, for vegans not on a calorie managed regime there is plenty of protein to be had. I can get about 90 grams of protein a day on about 1500 calories. If my system was more "normal" requiring over 2000 calories a day I could easily get hundreds of grams of protein. No need for powders.

 

I agree most, not all protein and other supplement use is for people to make money.

 

Having said that, I would like to leave people with the "not all" part as vegans like to pretend they are supermen who don't need supplements as long as they eat organic raw lettuce harvested in Himilayas harvested by the high Huntza Priests.

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Do you think that "fake" meats, TVP, seitan, and tofu fit into this category of overly processed food?

 

I don't think that about tofu. It isn't a whole food like tempeh or soy beans, but it is pretty low tech, low processed.

 

I do think that about the rest of the ones you mentioned. They are literally just texturized flour products. I gladly eat them, but mostly when I go out to eat or as occasional thing. I use them as treats, not staples.

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Offense.

 

That is a mistaken notion. The ADA Position Paper On Vegetarianism was cowritten by two prominent vegan nutrition authors. The Position Paper only states that complementing isn't necessary at every single meal for basic health. That is different from optimal health, optimal training results and getting optimal quality vegan protein. Most vegans are only looking for basic health so this point has often gotten confused over the years but you can find a copy of the position paper online.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

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Do you think that "fake" meats, TVP, seitan, and tofu fit into this category of overly processed food?

 

I don't think that about tofu. It isn't a whole food like tempeh or soy beans, but it is pretty low tech, low processed.

 

I do think that about the rest of the ones you mentioned. They are literally just texturized flour products. I gladly eat them, but mostly when I go out to eat or as occasional thing. I use them as treats, not staples.

Yeah, that.

I use soy sparsely because I tend to fart alot after eating it but I don't think it's harmful in any way in the form of tofu, natto, miso or tempeh. Seitan is definitely processed as it is more processed than even white flour, same thing with TVP.

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To counterbalance here's a good article by McDougall: Protein Overload.

Also, of course, The China Study is a good read.

I believe from what I've read during the years that overly processed food in any form will be harmful. There is a HUGE industry behind supplements and it might take awhile to know what have emerged as side effects in the labs when it comes to "fake" protein. This is, after all, a money making machine (from peoples desperation) that hardly has any regulation. It's gambling and noone knows how bad it might be and you can be sure that the people making the money won't tell you (in case they know).

 

Offense, I would be interested in your opinion of his fish & soy DVD. I'm too skeptical to buy it because of his anti-soy rant I heard at Summerfest. He may be right, but it is hard to take someone seriously when they talk about a food you have been eating for almost 30 years as being poisonous. It sounds like from his DVD he has a new opinion about soy that is more moderate, less hysterical. Again, I would be interested to hear your view about what McDougal has to say on that DVD.

All of the "gurus" (to use a bad word) have flaws including McDougall. The two most outspoken (Fuhrman and McDougall) have different agendas and they tend to leave out good science because it doesn't fit their model. Same goes with Esselstyn. The ones that I trust the most is Jeff Novick, Colin Campbell (both the oil guy and the diet guy. Brilliance seems to be attached to this name ) and Brenda Davies. I kind of take their word for most things related to health and diet.

Soy is one of the things that I think McDougall went overboard on. He is missing a point stated by Campell (and Fuhrman), namely that it's about whole food, not where it originated from. Kidney beans is most likely unhealthy too if you strip of everything but the starch or the protein.

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Also, check out dr. John Berardi, he's a Ph.D. and one of the best in his field (sports nutrition).

 

Agreed. Berardi is awesome and one of the best!

I agree with you that a high protein diet is probably the most efficient way of getting from "normal" to ridiculously shredded. However, after reading Overdosed America and The China Study I've seen how extremely efficient big pharma is on not letting people in on vital info. And that is a highly regulated industry compared to the supplement industry.

When it comes to experts on bodybuilding they tend to not see the forest for all the trees. They just quote study after study loosely connected and draw too big conclusions from it. They use data from bad studies (that look good since they are published and peer reviewed) and also use the bad conclusions that come from these studies (that are paid for by the same manufacturers that sells the product). This is all extremely complicated and if one is not constantly on the watch one will most likely get tricked. I urge you to read Overdosed America to find out exactly how smart they are and what they have don in the past without any regards to human health (and, again, this is in a much more regulated business).

I'm not sure of anything but that whole plant foods is good for me, we've known that for 5000 years (at least). Sometimes you seem very sure of your model

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Food recommendations are highly politicized. The Food and Nutrition Board in the US for example (which makes the food pyramid taught in our schools) is usually chaired by meat or dairy industry lobbyists. Scientists on the board who have tried to get the fat recommendation below 20% have been told it can't happen because that would essentially require a vegan diet; the agribusiness lobbyists on the board will kill any low-fat proposal even though the scientific evidence strongly supports it.

 

It's pretty telling to me that not a single protein advocate in here can sight ONE person they have known who eats sufficient daily calories who is protein deficient. Nor can any of you explain raw vegans like me, who eat well under 10% protein a day, who are stronger pound for pound than 95 plus percent of the population-even at 48 yrs old. Dr Graham, who I learned the diet from, has not missed a day of work from illness in over 20 years. I have photos of him, at 58, doing handstands. I haven't missed one hour of work since becoming raw vegan last year or taken so much as an aspirin. Also, for just about the first time in my pretty long life, I am at my ideal body weight, and I maintain it while eating lots of food and doing almost no aerobic exercise and less than an hour of weight lifting a week (I'm currently working 60 hour work weeks and don't have much time for working out.)

 

A man in the user group for the diet I use recently cut his ultramarathon (something like 100 miles) time from 28 to 18 hours after switching to raw veganism. A low-fat raw vegan diet is not about subsistence as some of you have convinced yourselves; it's about high strength, high endurance, high flexability, super immunity, moderate cost, simple preparation, super underlying health like low blood pressure and cholesterol, environmental sustainabilty, and non-violence.

 

Four very credible critics of high protein consumption are:

Dr Colin Campbell- perhaps the leading nutritional epidemiologist in the world

The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

The World Health Organization

Dr Douglas Graham

 

Finally, I obviously believe many of you are misinformed and encouraging others to engage in unhealthy behavior. Seems to me this type of debate is bound to be a little rambunctious, though I put a lot of effort into maintaining a reasonably civil tone.

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Out of curiosity, as I haven't heard this discussed elsewhere - Do rawfoodists believe that if they had exactly the same diet, but just cooked, they would lose the benefits? I haven't formed an opinion one way or the other about rawfoodism. But, the recommended rawfood diet seems to contain high amounts of vegetables, low or no processed foods, low salt, and often low fat (although it depends from person to person) and the types of fat consumed seem better (from nuts and seeds rather than cooking oils etc). I can see the benefits of those things. But has there been an experiment done where someone ate exactly the same foods, only they cook them?

 

Because it seems incorrect to compare two diets, one cooked and one raw, if they aren't even eating the same foods. It seems obvious that if a cooked foodist is eating a bunch of crap, and the rawfoodist is eating salad after salad, that the rawfoodist will be in better health. But if the cooked foodist was eating the same vegetables, but steamed, it would be a fair comparison, and I would be interested in the results. In my mind, it's possible to eat a very healthy cooked food diet, it isn't as simple as cooked food all being processed, high in fat, high in salt - a rawfood diet and cooked food diet need not be any/much different.

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