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Dr. Vivian Vitrano B12 Clarification


vvginovv
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"In summary, vegans and raw fooders all have sufficient amounts of coenzyme B12 in their diets, and FROM THAT produced in their bodies. The most common basic cause of a natural cobalamin deficiency is a failure to digest, absorb and utilize the various cobalamins from food and from the intestinal tract as in the case of gastritis or gastroenteritis. The cause of malabsorption is commonly a gastrointestinal disorder and this was known by pathologists way back in the l800s. In this case, one's lifestyle must be assessed and brought into unison with the needs of the living organism."

 

i guess the B12 in supplement form isn't even absorbed or used by the body either.

 

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html

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"In summary, vegans and raw fooders all have sufficient amounts of coenzyme B12 in their diets, and FROM THAT produced in their bodies. The most common basic cause of a natural cobalamin deficiency is a failure to digest, absorb and utilize the various cobalamins from food and from the intestinal tract as in the case of gastritis or gastroenteritis. The cause of malabsorption is commonly a gastrointestinal disorder and this was known by pathologists way back in the l800s. In this case, one's lifestyle must be assessed and brought into unison with the needs of the living organism."

 

i guess the B12 in supplement form isn't even absorbed or used by the body either.

 

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html

 

I wouldn't trust what this person has to say as I have heard vegan doctors giving nutrition lectures telling the audience that it is anatomically impossible for people to use the b-12 produced in their intestines. If this person is ignorant of that medical fact I wouldn't trust what else s/he has to say.

 

I would read the article on B-12 at the link Offense quoted above. It is written by a vegan registered dietitian who has a good reputation for knowing his stuff.

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Thanks Offense and BeforeWisdom! I am continuously amazed at the misinformation concerning B12 in vegan and raw food circles. Omnis never seem to deny that even though they eat B12 in their food, they may be deficient. Here we have a small group of people who do NOT eat B12 in their food but think that by removing the very foods that supply it in their diet somehow does not affect their B12 levels in time.

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It can take years to exhaust a bodies stored b-12 and years to get visible symptoms.

 

Many processed foods vegan, healthy, mainstream and otherwise are fortified with amounts of b-12 that are inadequate for optimal health, but enough to stave off deficiency symptoms.

 

Given those things it is hard to get people who are looking for magic through their diet to consider that they have been misinformed.

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Yea i thought this was weird as well. She comes recommended by many of the raw gurus.

Dr. Vitrano has been raw for 25 years, but she just must be lying.

I guess the argument is that B12 is made by the body and plants, nuts, seeds are the facilitators of that process, as well as the opinion that the supplement doesn't actually work. When deficiencies occur, it is actually because the person has an absorption issue.

I guess the deficiency rate is consistent across ALL diets. The percentage of meat eaters who are deficient is equal to that of vegans because it is merely absorption issues of the vitamin that is occurring among the deficient. B12 is formed from bacteria and is all around us. Doug Graham says we even breathe it.

 

B12 @ 1:49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyHQy9B1GQA

 

 

I have no clue though I am just a newb reading superficially without a scientific education on the matter

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Vvginovv, glad you didn't take anything personally since we weren't bashing you. It's difficult to sniff out the "gurus" who spew misinformation when you're a newbie (indeed, some are never able to do this). There is a certain faction of vegans/raw foodists who believe that they still live in an era when humans had not changed their environment to the point that supplementation was necessary for many at some point in their lives. I'm personally happy with my creature comforts and consider supplementation with vit B12 and vit D a small price to pay for fresh vegetables grown by a farmer while I work indoors, life in the cloudy NW with cultural events 7 days a week and climate control while I type on my computer. That's my reality in my environment. Not perfect but works for me.

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i think the fact that the deficiency percentage remains constant among everyone is an extemely salient piece of information in this case. It serves as a sort of mini experiment, the variable being vitamin b12.

 

There are a percentage of people who are consuming b12 in the form of animal products or supplementation that are still becoming deficient. This means that the deficiency is not caused by lack of vitamin, but as mentioned, failure some where in the body of that particular person as it relates to the means of absorption.

 

im not sure of the actual number,

but for instance if 2% of vegans are deficient in B12.

Doug is saying that the same ratio applies across all.

2% of western dieters are deficient

2% of med. diets are deficient

2% of raw foodies are deficient

2% of vegetarians are deficient

 

Since the consumption of B12 is in half of those diets and NOT in the other half, The intake of B12 isn't changing anything.

The same result occurs consistently through various diets, which almost proves that the variable (the addition of b12 through animal products/supplementation) is ineffective in regard to B12 deficiency.

 

So all of the horror stories of deficiency actually have nothing to do with B12 consumption, its that persons ability to absorb it that is the real culprit. And as Doug said (again, not sure if hes lying), we actually get B12 from breathing, swallowing among many other passive methods, so it is only extraneous to add more.

 

whatev im still supplementing, its like $40/year

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Yea i thought this was weird as well. She comes recommended by many of the raw gurus.

 

*Some* ( only some ) people get some nice, temporary results by going raw. They move from a junk food diet to a higher fiber, lower calorie, higher vegetable, higher vitamin/mineral diet with more water in it.

 

However, raw food authors, who are rarely degreed health professionals, make bizarre explanations for why people feel better ( at least temporarily ) going raw that contradict basic biology. They also go on make extreme recommendations to people.

 

No offense to anyone, but I would take anything you read from raw foodists only as an invitation to further research -- if you are interested.

 

 

 

 

I have no clue though I am just a newb reading superficially without a scientific education on the matter

 

You might want to read this sticky I made in that case. It points people to reliable vegan nutrition information written by degreed vegan health professionals with good reputations:

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13710

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This is a pretty popular vegan and raw food doctor, seems to be logical and informative. Even though I'm raw I'm going to take b12 if I get to the point where I need it. Rather save my health than try to live to a principle. Right now my b12 levels are fine, I got a blood test, 5 months into being raw, 15 months into being vegan. I'll get another blood test in a while and see how things are.

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Even though adults require only 2 micrograms (mcg) of vitamin B12 daily, according to the new Recommended Dietary Allowances, the mineral is present only in tiny quantities, and primarily in meats.

 

Assuring a good intake of vitamin B12, whatever the source, does not guarantee that it will be properly absorbed. A good supply of what is called the intrinsic factor is necessary for this vitamin to become available to the body.

 

The intrinsic factor, despite its rather cryptic name, is nothing mysterious. It is innumerable tiny, open ended protein capsules created by the stomach in the exact shape and size required to fit a cobalamin molecule.

 

These capsules randomly weave and bob around amid digesting food. When they bump into vitamin B12, they quickly trap it inside, snap the open and shut, and transport it to the farthest end of the small intestine, the only place in the gut where cobalamin can be absorbed.

 

Without intrinsic factor, most B12 could never reach its destination, because bacteria which line the intestine are hungry for this nutrient and would intercept it. So you can be starved for vitamin B12 even when it is richly supplied.

 

Making protein for the intrinsic factor depends on a good supply of many different amino acids, available mainly from varied animal sources. Plant sources seem to specialize in making one kind of amino acid rather than many, and therefore, a strict vegetarian diet may not offer the required raw materials to synthesize the needed and specialized protein.

 

What happens if there's a dearth of intrinsic factor? Intestinal bacteria gobble up much of the vitamin B12, and the rest is excreted.

 

Ingesting enough vitamin B12, therefore, is not enough. The vitamin has to be delivered to the right spot in the upper intestine for absorption. Otherwise, the consequences can be serious.

 

One of the serious consequences is dementia, which can mean anything from mild mental impairment to insanity.

 

A recent study by Ralph Carmel, M.D., a specialist in hematology and a professor of medicine at the University of Southern California, reveals the temperamental character of vitamin B12.

 

Carmel wrote that "a certain segment of the population, especially the elderly, cannot absorb vitamin B12 from food ... Some of them go on to develop low B12 levels with biochemical abnormalities that cannot be detected by standard tests, and some develop dementia.

 

"In 99 percent of cases, B12 deficiency arises from an inability to absorb the B12 ingested in food. The Schilling test can determine the extent to which a person is able to absorb the B12.

 

"However, in our study sample, 90 percent of the patients with unexplained low levels of B12 had normal Schilling tests. How could they have developed B12 deficiency if they were adequately absorbing B12?"

 

An answer to Carmel's question came from a study done some years ago by Dr. Doscherholmen at the University of Minnesota, showing that certain people, particularly the elderly, can absorb B12 normally when it is given in a pill in the Schilling test, but cannot absorb it in food.

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0860/is_n2_v52/ai_8540075

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This is a pretty popular vegan and raw food doctor, seems to be logical and informative. Even though I'm raw I'm going to take b12 if I get to the point where I need it. Rather save my health than try to live to a principle. Right now my b12 levels are fine, I got a blood test, 5 months into being raw, 15 months into being vegan. I'll get another blood test in a while and see how things are.

 

 

It can take some ( some people much less ) people 5 years to deplete their bodies store of b-12. It isn't like filling up a gas tank either. A human body can only absorb a little bit in a sitting. A human body also will not start storing b-12 again unless it receives b-12 on a steady basis.

 

B-12 in supplements are grown from bacteria, so you can reframe it a a "natural product" instead of as a "pill". FWIW

 

Thanks for making the smart decision for your health. The vegan doctors and RDs I talk to have said that b-12 deficiencies happen. The victims just paste their stories on billboards.

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