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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080813164638.htm

 

ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2008) — People who use monosodium glutamate, or MSG, as a flavor enhancer in their food are more likely than people who don't use it to be overweight or obese even though they have the same amount of physical activity and total calorie intake, according to a University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Public Health study published this month in the journal Obesity. ...

 

Explain all of those thin Chinese and Japanese people who eat boat loads of MSG.

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Can you imagine what would happen if someone ate "nightshade" vegetables topped with an MSG based sauce cooked in a microwave!!

 

 

The body, being unable to cope with all of the poisons would explode into a unicorn, causing much harm and cuteness . . . can't prove it wouldn't happen . . . and my company is PC based.

 

you guys are amazing

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080813164638.htm

 

ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2008) — People who use monosodium glutamate, or MSG, as a flavor enhancer in their food are more likely than people who don't use it to be overweight or obese even though they have the same amount of physical activity and total calorie intake, according to a University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Public Health study published this month in the journal Obesity. ...

 

Explain all of those thin Chinese and Japanese people who eat boat loads of MSG.

I can only assume it has something to do with their caloric intake, and physical activity.

Sound like a plausable explaination to you?

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Can you imagine what would happen if someone ate "nightshade" vegetables topped with an MSG based sauce cooked in a microwave!!

 

 

The body, being unable to cope with all of the poisons would explode into a unicorn, causing much harm and cuteness . . . can't prove it wouldn't happen . . . and my company is PC based.

 

All of that could be reversed by eating only raw cabbage cultivated in volcanic soil by farmers who do polarity therapy to balance the energy they transmit through their work.

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Aha! So absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I knew it! I'm going to ride home on my unicorn-powered cotton-candy sled, since you can't prove that I don't have one.

No, but in nutrition that's how it works, when it's not good for the body,

Bzzt, stop right there. You don't know it's not good for the body. Hence, "absence of evidence." If it's not good for the body, the rest of your statement might be true. But you seem to have consistent problems differentiating between theories and facts.

Yes I know it's not good for the body I wrote :

"about MSG (...) we know for sure they're not fondamentally good things, they just can't be, they don't contain any vitamins or any essential nutrients that the body can use to optimize health or even not calories to transform in energy. When a substance don't provide anything good to the body,(...) the body can't use it, and it tries to get rid of it, it's just a nuisance and a pain in the ass.

Eventhough water don't contain any calories or vitamins and only traces of minerals, it is good because the body (and life) needs water. But MSG don't even contain water - or only traces, like everything.

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080813164638.htm

 

ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2008) — People who use monosodium glutamate, or MSG, as a flavor enhancer in their food are more likely than people who don't use it to be overweight or obese even though they have the same amount of physical activity and total calorie intake, according to a University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Public Health study published this month in the journal Obesity. ...

I became a bit more interested in this after you posted that link. Let's check it out a bit more!

 

Direct link to abstract: http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v16/n8/abs/oby2008274a.html

 

Eighty-two percent of participants were MSG users. Average intake was 0.33 g/day (s.d. = 0.40).

 

OK, this is not much. Just 330mg per day! Let's look at the amount of glutamate of food in general:

 

Free glutamate content of foods (mg per 100g)

 

roquefort cheese 1280

parmesan cheese 1200

soy sauce 1090

walnuts 658

fresh tomato juice 260

grape juice 258

peas 200

mushrooms 180

broccoli 176

tomatoes 140

mushrooms 140

oysters 137

corn 130

potatoes 102

chicken 44

mackerel 36

beef 33

eggs 23

human milk 22

 

The average consumption was similar as eating 200g (7 oz.) tomatoes. Now the real question is, how do different glutamates affect? If you count the free glutamate in normal food everyone gets more it than the amount people added to the food in the Chinese study. They only checked the amount of MSG added as a powder to the food but did not check the amount of MSG in soy sauce, for example.

 

Let's check what MSG is, btw. Wikipedia helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate

 

MSG is normally obtained by the fermentation of carbohydrates, using bacteria species from genera such as Brevibacterium, Arthrobacter, Microbacterium, and Corynebacterium. Yields of 100 g/litre can be prepared in this way. From 1909 to the mid 1960s, MSG was prepared by the hydrolysis of wheat gluten, which is roughly 25% glutamic acid. Glutamic acid is one of the least soluble amino acids, which facilitates its purification.

 

It is made with fermentation process. I think it would be unfair to say it's unnatural or synthetic. And if you are not seriously fat I wouldn't worry about the use of MSG.

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"about MSG (...) we know for sure they're not fondamentally good things, they just can't be, they don't contain any vitamins or any essential nutrients that the body can use to optimize health or even not calories to transform in energy. When a substance don't provide anything good to the body,(...) the body can't use it, and it tries to get rid of it, it's just a nuisance and a pain in the ass.

Eventhough water don't contain any calories or vitamins and only traces of minerals, it is good because the body (and life) needs water. But MSG don't even contain water - or only traces, like everything.

That is not true. You would be dead if there weren't glutamate in your body. There's loads of glutamate in you!

 

http://www.food-info.net/uk/intol/msg.htm

 

Origin and function in the body

 

Monosodium glutamate, is a salt of glutamic acid. Glutamic acid is one of the 20 amino acids making up proteins. From a nutritional standpoint it is called a non-essential amino acid which means that it can be synthesized in our body.

 

In food as well as in tissue glutamic acid can be present in two forms: in a bound' form when it is linked to other amino acids to make up proteins or in a free' form when present as a single amino acid. Only free glutamate plays an important role in food flavour.

 

Recent studies have demonstrated that food-derived glutamate is the main energy source of the intestine. The intestine has such a voracious appetite for glutamate, and it has been shown that of all the glutamate eaten as food only about 4% passes into the body. This implies that the rest of the body has to synthesize nearly all of the glutamate that it needs.

 

Any glutamate in the food, whether bound in protein or free, or added, is converted in the intestine into free glutamate, and used for energy production by the intestine. Glutamate is also used in the brain as a neurotransmitter. However, the blood brain barrier which controls what type of molecules can enter the brain, does not allow its passage. Therefore, the brain has to synthesize its own glutamate from glucose and other amino acids.

 

Due to the central position of glutamate in metabolism, it has important functions such as substrate for protein synthesis, precursor of glutamine, nitrogen transport, and so on.

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Bzzt, stop right there. You don't know it's not good for the body. Hence, "absence of evidence." If it's not good for the body, the rest of your statement might be true. But you seem to have consistent problems differentiating between theories and facts.
Yes I know it's not good for the body I wrote :

"about MSG (...) we know for sure they're not fondamentally good things, they just can't be, they don't contain any vitamins or any essential nutrients that the body can use to optimize health or even not calories to transform in energy. When a substance don't provide anything good to the body,(...) the body can't use it, and it tries to get rid of it, it's just a nuisance and a pain in the ass.

"They just can't be" is not fact. It's theory. Without studies, we don't know whether MSG contains anything useful. And even if it doesn't, that doesn't mean it's harmful. I know you like to believe everything needs to fall into one of the two categories of "good for the body" or "toxic," but that's also just a theory. Conjecture. Guesswork.

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I had bad headaches and palpitations a couple of times last year, I realised it was because I’d eaten at an Oriental vegan buffet beforehand on both occasions and that I was sick as a result of all the MSG they add – some of the cheap vegan buffets are notorious for the amount of MSG they use.

 

I think MSG in small quantities is probably OK, but from personal experience not in the amounts they put in certain veg foods and/or at certain (Oriental) vegan establishments is not good for you at all.

 

Consuming MSG and feeling unwell afterwards is well known - Google ‘Chinese Restaurant Syndrome’. I think it’s indicative that some Chinese restaurants promote themselves as ‘MSG free’.

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If MSG is found naturally in foods like walnuts, then there can be nothing wrong with it when it is in its natural place & quantity, Ie: In a walnut.

 

If it is being isolated & put into lets say crisps or soup, in quantities above what it is found in natural sources, then it is very likely it will cause harm to the body, unless the body removes it, which in turn takes energy.You dont need a study to prove this, you just need a brain that has access to common sense.

 

Its like for example, vitamin C.Its healthy, & naturally found in oranges.Eat 2 oranges a day - great.What if we isolate the vitamin C from 100 oranges, & squash them into a small cube.Eating the cube is likely to be harmful, considering the body only needs 60 mg a day, & you would be providing it with vastly more than that! The body then has to deal with the excess which at the very least, takes energy, & maybe causes other problems like uric acid?

 

I dunno, its just my quick take on the thread.

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If MSG is found naturally in foods like walnuts, then there can be nothing wrong with it when it is in its natural place & quantity, Ie: In a walnut.

Natural doesn't mean harmless. There are huge amounts of poisonous plants, natural but deadly. But walnuts are safe even though there is glutamine in them since glutamine is not dangerous.

If it is being isolated & put into lets say crisps or soup, in quantities above what it is found in natural sources, then it is very likely it will cause harm to the body, unless the body removes it, which in turn takes energy.You dont need a study to prove this, you just need a brain that has access to common sense.

No, it is not likely that it will cause harm to the body if it is isolated. There is a possibility it will cause harm. You can take like 10 x the required amount of vitamin B12 a day and you'll be perfectly fine. I already pasted an article that said: "and it has been shown that of all the glutamate eaten as food only about 4% passes into the body" -> you can eat LOADS and you will only get it very little in your body.

 

It would be fun to know how much MSG there is in crisps or soups since it really isn't that much.

 

Its like for example, vitamin C.Its healthy, & naturally found in oranges.Eat 2 oranges a day - great.What if we isolate the vitamin C from 100 oranges, & squash them into a small cube.Eating the cube is likely to be harmful, considering the body only needs 60 mg a day, & you would be providing it with vastly more than that! The body then has to deal with the excess which at the very least, takes energy, & maybe causes other problems like uric acid?

 

I dunno, its just my quick take on the thread.

You are right, vitamin C may be unhealthy if you take HUGE amounts of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Adverse_effects

 

Here's a direct link to a study in which they gave 6 grams of vitamin C per day to people: http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v05je20.htm

 

Nausea, diarrhea ect... nothing deadly but a lot of adverse effects. 6gr equals about 100 oranges. 15mg per body weight in kg is the recommended maximum level.

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Thanks for all the links and info, Tuc; pretty interesting.

 

But concerning the glutamate that the body synthetize itself, that's important, it shows we don't need any extra, like cholesterol, and the fact that "of all the glutamate eaten as food only about 4% passes into the body" just prove what I was saying that the body don't want/need this and tries to get rid of it.

 

Again, I would like that people stop mistaking between natural things and the synthetic version of it or products made by isolating an element and used as supplement or additive. Glutamic acid is an non-essential amino acid naturally found in food and synthetized by our body. Monosodium glutamate or MSG is an isolated sodium salt from glutamic acid, they don't have the same name and not the same molecular structure, don't have the same purpose. It's not the samething and it causes different reactions of course.

 

About the experiements with ascorbic acid (vit. C) on humans to find if mega doses cause adverse effects, they didn't use any placebo to compare, which would have been a good thing. And they use only vit. C in a synthetic form, with pills or injections, never with foods naturally containing vitamin C.

 

They say: you need to have your calcium, you need to have your vitamin C. Let me explain a basic fact of life that scientists don't seem to understand yet: who eats a big bar of calcium? we don't eat calcium, we eat sesame seeds. We don't eat vitamin C, we eat oranges. We don't eat calories, we eat food.

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Nobody is claiming that MSG should be consumed as a supplement to improve health. That's not the issue here. MSG is a flavour enhancer, and it does what it's supposed to--it enhances the flavour of food. I don't think anyone would say the body needs MSG. The question is just whether it is harmful to the body. And Tuc is saying that there is no evidece that it is. And it's not just that it hasn't been studied at all--it has been studied a bit and the studies that have been done have failed to find an adverse effect (excepting the correlation with higher BMI).

 

Isolates are not necessarily bad for health in the right doses. Vitamin and mineral isolates can be very useful and important--for example, the B12 I take or the Vit D that people in dark areas/seasons should take. Sure, it's better to get vitamins and minerals from food as that means you're eating healthful food and getting other nutrients and benefits as well. But supplement or isolated forms are not necessarily harmful and will often fulfill the specific purpose they are meant for.

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Isolates are not necessarily bad for health in the right doses. Vitamin and mineral isolates can be very useful and important--for example, the B12 I take or the Vit D that people in dark areas/seasons should take. Sure, it's better to get vitamins and minerals from food as that means you're eating healthful food and getting other nutrients and benefits as well. But supplement or isolated forms are not necessarily harmful and will often fulfill the specific purpose they are meant for.

They also allow us to find the harmful threshold of otherwise harmless substances (Vit C, Iron, etc) without trying to get a sample of people to eat 100 oranges or 15 pounds of spinach or their own weight in soybeans. Without isolates we couldn't even control sufficient variables or perform blind studies.

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Isolates are not necessarily bad for health in the right doses. Vitamin and mineral isolates can be very useful and important--for example, the B12 I take or the Vit D that people in dark areas/seasons should take. Sure, it's better to get vitamins and minerals from food as that means you're eating healthful food and getting other nutrients and benefits as well. But supplement or isolated forms are not necessarily harmful and will often fulfill the specific purpose they are meant for.

They also allow us to find the harmful threshold of otherwise harmless substances (Vit C, Iron, etc) without trying to get a sample of people to eat 100 oranges or 15 pounds of spinach or their own weight in soybeans. Without isolates we couldn't even control sufficient variables or perform blind studies.

Yeah but is there a study comparing vitamin pills and vitamins in real food? If not, it would be about time to do one! I've read from some specialists that vitamins or minerals in the form of supplements instead of food are not absorbed well and can even harm health rather than optimize it. What we can't trust all scientists say, can we ?
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Guillaume, stop being riddiculous.

 

MSG is good for humans as it makes the food taste better and that's why people use it. Period. Are grains of sand bad for you? Are they toxic? And is everything you sweat, piss and shit toxic as your body is getting rid of it by removing it from your body? Yes, they don't really have anything to give to human body, but you won't die from getting some sand in your body.

 

But MSG actually HAS something you're body needs and is able to use. And as it's in many "natural" (fuck that shitty "natural" argument ) whole foods, you should see how it shouldn't be dangerous as you'd be dead already if it was.

 

This thread is retarded.

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Millions, if not billions of Japanese and Chinese people eat MSG every day. They don't get sick, they don't get fat.

 

Millions of Americans eat peanut butter every day. They don't get sick, they don't get fat.

 

There are people who are allergic to peanuts and who will get ill eating peanut butter. People without peanut allergies who use too much peanut butter in one sitting will not feel well. Like I did last night.

 

That doesn't mean peanut butter is bad for everyone.

 

It just means that like MSG, some people can't handle it and that if you eat too much in one sitting ( really CHEAP, crappy Chinese restaurants ) you will not feel so great.

 

It is really sad that common sense level thinking like this has to be broken down for people. I don't believe any of you are stupid. You are just in the habit of not slowing down to think things through and arguing as a game of one upmanship.

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Guillaume, stop being riddiculous.

 

MSG is good for humans as it makes the food taste better and that's why people use it. Period. Are grains of sand bad for you? Are they toxic? And is everything you sweat, piss and shit toxic as your body is getting rid of it by removing it from your body? Yes, they don't really have anything to give to human body, but you won't die from getting some sand in your body.

 

But MSG actually HAS something you're body needs and is able to use. And as it's in many "natural" (fuck that shitty "natural" argument ) whole foods, you should see how it shouldn't be dangerous as you'd be dead already if it was.

 

This thread is retarded.

 

 

Millions, if not billions of Japanese and Chinese people eat MSG every day. They don't get sick, they don't get fat.

 

Millions of Americans eat peanut butter every day. They don't get sick, they don't get fat.

Eventhough Japanese and Chinese always been known for low obesity rate, it's changing since a few years.

And they don't get sick ??? wow, they're lucky. And there's no hospitals, no doctors there, or are they all unemployed?

 

Americans don't get sick ??! Go visit an hospital, my friend.

 

Americans don't get fat !? Oh yeah, it's true, now they're not #1 world most obese country, they're only #2 or #3, so yeah, they're lean...

 

It is really sad that common sense level thinking like this has to be broken down for people.
I thought you were one of those who value scientific methods, not common sense. I think you better stick to what you're good at.

 

=============

 

I think we've all agreed that MSG may (or may not, lol... those damn "scientific" studies) "be positively related to increased BMI"... I think that's a pretty weird effect, for a calorie free substance, but if you guys find it normal, that's fine.

What Wikipedia doesn't say about this study, is how much time the subjects have been observed...

You see the thing with those substances that are commonly found everywhere, is that the adverse effects may be degenerative, and cause real harm only after 20, 40 years, resulting in a cancer, for instance.

That's why they've been aproved, because they're "safe" in small amount, short term, tested on rats, and tested alone (not combined with other substances, which is not very realistic, since in society we are exposed to hundreds of substances every day and they act together... do you know how to make gunpowder ? You need to mix a few substances together to make it a deadly product, while each substance alone won't have such an explosive effect). But what about long term... once the product is released in our consumption of all days, surrounded by hundreds of other illicit substances, it's hard to know what causes what.

 

So Tuc said MSG can kill rats, but it doesn't matter because those are high doses, and that us, humans, only eat tiny little amounts of MSG... But then we have Hilary who writes in the next post "I eat HUGE amounts of MSG since 45 years in Chinese food"... So what is it, tiny amounts or huge amounts ?

 

Ok so MSG is just something from an harmless amino acid... ?

Does Aspartame ring any bell to you? This also is just derived from an harmless amino acid... two harmless amino acids, to be more precise, when combined together it makes a sweet flavor... A controversial aproval by the FDA even if some tests showed some really weird stuff, this substance from Monsanto, who were involved in research to develop the first nuclear weapon (the manhattan project), and then produced the Agent Orange to destroy the Vietnam jungle, they produced plastics, rubber, stylene, were responsible for the Texas City Disaster (600 death) and then they invented beautiful products like DDT, PCB, Aspartame, the bovine growth hormone, genetically modified organisms (GMO), their RoundUp herbicide is used in Venezuela to destroy the coca fields (destroying the forest at the same time and killing people nearby), et cetera...

 

Anyways, I'm not saying MSG or Aspartame or whatever other substances are dangerous, I'm just saying what I wrote there in this post.

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My actual quote was:

 

" I've been eating lots of MSG for about 45 years (not deliberately, but it is heavily used in Chinese food). I'll keep you posted if I develope any health problems when I get older."

I said this slightly tongue in cheek as I am already "older". This is very different than saying "HUGE amounts"

You shouldn't misquote people even if it is for dramatic effect.

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There were no Gemma protein powders 200 years ago - or MSG isolates in soup, crisps or chinese food.People like Hilary may say, "well I've been eating MSG's (chinese foods) for 45 years" or "tests have been done on protein powders & show that they are not harmful" but you guys fail to grasp a vital point.

 

These products have only been consumed by our generation, our parents, & maybe our grand parents at the most.Therefore all the studies & case studies you quote are simply not the full picture.Sometimes things take a long time to have their effect, hundreds of years, maybe thousands.Certainly more than 3 generations.

 

Its like people who say "GM foods are fine, there is no evidence that they are harmful" What a load of crap.We havn't left it long enough to know.

 

The human body has been evolving for millions of years.It has been evolving, sourcing its energy & vitamins from natural foods like fruit, vegetables & nuts.These foods contain natural levels of these things.The human body has geared itself up for these natural levels.In the last few decades we have been extracting the vitamins, proteins or MSG's from these foods, & taking them in large doses.I dont think its possible that this will be harmful, I think its quite likely.

 

Crappy tests done in the last few decades are frankly of minor relevance.When these tests are done over a few hundred years, & still nothing harmful shows up for MSG's isolates, then maybe its ok to eat it.

 

Until then, we should all stick to what Im Your Man tries to do, which is avoid these processed un-natural products, and favour whole foods.He is simply one step ahead of you.

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The point that is not beig grasped by those who mis-quote and misrepresent what I say is this: I am relating my life experiences . . . not test results. I have never once advocated the use of MSG , supplements, or protein powders, nor have I taken a stand against them. I am stating the facts of my experience with them. I have used supplements, protein powder and have eaten MSG for some 45 years. I started in martial arts at age 9 (some people used to make fun of my name, can you imagine?) I started on supplements and soy protein at age 10 with hopes of improving my endurance. I started eating lots (not a HUGE amount) of Chinese and Korean food then as well. I have continued to use protein isolates, supplements, and eat MSG ever since. I have good health, good energy and I really ENJOY my food and diet. (even though Vegan Joe looks better, and has a wicked cool mustache) This has been my real experience with these substances. This may not work for everyone, but it works for me. Does someone telling me that this is detremental to my health change my life experience? Will I change my diet, enjoyment and opinions simply because a natural food zealot condems these items? No.

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