Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Vegan Joe]

Spider-Man, "with great power comes great responsibilty"

[CollegeB]

nice selection Joe.

[RobertSupreme]

+1 VJ. I think this thread should be closed to be honest.

[nobbi]

nobbi i'm curious as to what motivates you to keep going given your pessimistic view of the world and your own life.

 

Well, I am stuck in a relationship and killing myself would destroy someone elses life too.

[Richard]

Ahoy. Please, debate the subject without hostility, or I'll take your ball(s) and go home.

 

Remember that whatever anybody says about your opinion, there are only really two outcomes. Either what they've said convinces you to change your mind, (in which case you change your mind and there is no longer an argument), or you think their opinion is incorrect, and therefore there is a difference of opinion. In the case that there is a difference of opinion, what would it take to change your opinion on this subject? Is there a way? Has your opinion on this matter changed in the last 3 years or whatever? Have you ever changed anyone else's opinion? If you've never succeeded, and you've seen the same points of view again and again, what makes you think it would be different this time? What is the goal of the conversation? Do you enjoy the conversation now that it is very hostile? Ask yourself these questions before spending another 6 pages spinning your wheels.

 

I don't like to see the hostility, especially when I know it won't lead anywhere, it's not like anything constructive is going to come out of it. The original poster wondered what everyone's opinions were - it is possible to state your opinion and read others without attacking one another. Especially as there is so little wiggle room on this issue, I just think the debating of it is generally futile and usually volatile. It also confuses me as many people are so sure of themselves on this issue, yet they constantly feel the need to defend their position. Why don't you have the confidence to say "I am right, I don't need to listen to this, and if people don't agree with me, too bad"?

 

I imagine people don't want to take that approach because:

 

A) They feel strongly that their opinion is important and there is a problem caused by those who don't share it.

 

B) They feel their opinion is the truth / logical / correct, and therefore there is no reason not to explain it, and other people should appreciate that it is correct.

 

However, that's all pointless as nobody ever changes their mind. Once you accept that, and step outside the conversation, you see how pointless it is.

 

or possibly the reason is that it seems arrogant or impolite to not explain your position. However, this isn't being done in a polite fashion anymore.

[RobertSupreme]

Would be amazing if that was made known on every forum.

[Im Your Man]

Mostly I just want to point out that no one 'gets' you pregnant. It takes two to tango so an unwanted pregnancy is equally the fault of each partner.

Now what kind of tango is that :

Woman kept in basement for 24 years, subjected to incest.

In an Austrian incest case revealed Monday morning, 42-year-old Elisabeth Fritzi, who has been considered missing for the past 24 years, was found captive in a windowless cellar, where her father has kept her imprisoned since her disappearance on August 24, 1984.

 

Elisabeth’s father, 73-year-old Josef Fritzi, started sexually abusing her when she was 11 and, seven years later, handcuffed and locked her in their cellar. A letter later arrived at the Fritzi’s doorstep, supposedly from Elisabeth, stating that her parents should not look for her. Elisabeth’s mother figured that she had disappeared at her own will, completely unaware that her daughter was being held prisoner in the cellar. She was also unaware that Josef fathered seven children with his daughter during these 24 years.

http://www.clipmarks.com/clipmark/716F0ABC-D02E-4B3B-A64C-55FF8A272FBA/

[blabbate]

Mostly I just want to point out that no one 'gets' you pregnant. It takes two to tango so an unwanted pregnancy is equally the fault of each partner.

Now what kind of tango is that :

Woman kept in basement for 24 years, subjected to incest.

Augh, ok, yes, it's true that FH was generalizing and ignoring cases of incest and rape, but it's not like he doesn't know they exist.

However, it's also true that it didn't sound like HCP was talking about incest or rape when she said:

If some dude gets me pregnant and I don't want it, I'm more than happy to give the embryo to him so that he can carry it, give birth to it and raise it as his own.

Only she can speak to what was in her mind when she wrote that, but it certainly comes across poorly.

[xjohanx]

She wasn't saying you really would be happy about that, it was a way of talking.

 

Would you reason the same way if I wrote that you love to rape women and kill people of a different skin color? Cause you know, that just a way of talking too.

 

Saying she's sick... you make me sick.

 

I do not care

Edited February 19, 2009 by xjohanx

[Zack]

Mostly I just want to point out that no one 'gets' you pregnant. It takes two to tango so an unwanted pregnancy is equally the fault of each partner.

Now what kind of tango is that :

Woman kept in basement for 24 years, subjected to incest.

In an Austrian incest case revealed Monday morning, 42-year-old Elisabeth Fritzi, who has been considered missing for the past 24 years, was found captive in a windowless cellar, where her father has kept her imprisoned since her disappearance on August 24, 1984.

 

Elisabeth’s father, 73-year-old Josef Fritzi, started sexually abusing her when she was 11 and, seven years later, handcuffed and locked her in their cellar. A letter later arrived at the Fritzi’s doorstep, supposedly from Elisabeth, stating that her parents should not look for her. Elisabeth’s mother figured that she had disappeared at her own will, completely unaware that her daughter was being held prisoner in the cellar. She was also unaware that Josef fathered seven children with his daughter during these 24 years.

http://www.clipmarks.com/clipmark/716F0ABC-D02E-4B3B-A64C-55FF8A272FBA/

 

Why would you even mention the rare extreme like this?

 

FH is correct that women are equally responsible.

[xveganjoshx]

Mostly I just want to point out that no one 'gets' you pregnant. It takes two to tango so an unwanted pregnancy is equally the fault of each partner.

Now what kind of tango is that :

Woman kept in basement for 24 years, subjected to incest.

In an Austrian incest case revealed Monday morning, 42-year-old Elisabeth Fritzi, who has been considered missing for the past 24 years, was found captive in a windowless cellar, where her father has kept her imprisoned since her disappearance on August 24, 1984.

 

Elisabeth’s father, 73-year-old Josef Fritzi, started sexually abusing her when she was 11 and, seven years later, handcuffed and locked her in their cellar. A letter later arrived at the Fritzi’s doorstep, supposedly from Elisabeth, stating that her parents should not look for her. Elisabeth’s mother figured that she had disappeared at her own will, completely unaware that her daughter was being held prisoner in the cellar. She was also unaware that Josef fathered seven children with his daughter during these 24 years.

http://www.clipmarks.com/clipmark/716F0ABC-D02E-4B3B-A64C-55FF8A272FBA/

 

Why would you even mention the rare extreme like this?

 

FH is correct that women are equally responsible.

Women are not equally responsible, because women are not equally capable of making decisions as men are.

 

/sarcasm

[Im Your Man]

I saw an investigation about the abortion industry...

a Danish tv crew went to Barcelona to denounce the tourism for abortion... an 8-month pregnant journalist with a spycam met with Dr. Morin who accepted the aborting the sameday for 4,000 euros.

The investigation led to police raids in Spain and the arrest of several officials, including Dr. Morin.

In Canada, late abortions are performed until the 23rd week of pregnancy. Beyond this period, patients are sent to the United States to undergo an intervention for 20,000$, paid by the governement... the taxpayers. Every year about 35 women go to United States to get late abortions.

The case of Chantale Daigle in 1988 in Canada, she don't wanted her baby anymore and had to go to Supreme Court to get aborted at the 22nd week, she won and Supreme Court declared that foetus has no right. No limit were fixed, so technically it could go up to 36 weeks. But for logistic reasons after 23 weeks women are always sent to U.S.

[Zack]

I saw an investigation about the abortion industry...

a Danish tv crew went to Barcelona to denounce the tourism for abortion... an 8-month pregnant journalist with a spycam met with Dr. Morin who accepted the aborting the sameday for 4,000 euros.

The investigation led to police raids in Spain and the arrest of several officials, including Dr. Morin.

In Canada, late abortions are performed until the 23rd week of pregnancy. Beyond this period, patients are sent to the United States to undergo an intervention for 20,000$, paid by the governement... the taxpayers. Every year about 35 women go to United States to get late abortions.

The case of Chantale Daigle in 1988 in Canada, she don't wanted her baby anymore and had to go to Supreme Court to get aborted at the 22nd week, she won and Supreme Court declared that foetus has no right. No limit were fixed, so technically it could go up to 36 weeks. But for logistic reasons after 23 weeks women are always sent to U.S.

 

paid by canadian taxpayers?

 

Hopefully not US tax payers. I don't wanna be paying for foreigners to come here to murder a new life.

 

(flamesuit= on)

[Im Your Man]

yeah, by canadian taxpayers.

[revolushuneyz]

IYM, you have chosen an extremely rare case. You are talking about 35 out of 100,000 abortions. Third trimester abortions in Canada are generally refused save for medical purposes (the birth would pose a risk to either the baby or the mother). Where did you get your info from? What was the reason for the abortions?

 

You selected an example from 1988. You're being extremist. It's equivalent to saying that some people go vegan to mask an eating disorder so veganism is a symptom of an ED.

[Im Your Man]

I'm not extremist or anything, I didn't even say my opinion, I just talked about an investigation I saw on tv (this is the source where I got the infos).

 

The 1988 is not a rare case, it's the first case, this is when it started, so after this there's no case which require to go in court, you just go to the doctor, and if it's later than 23 weeks he sends you to the U.S. That's all I was saying I wasn't saying abortions are right or wrong, I already said my opinion about it in previous posts.

[Im Your Man]

You are talking about 35 out of 100,000 abortions. Third trimester abortions in Canada are generally refused save for medical purposes (the birth would pose a risk to either the baby or the mother). Where did you get your info from? What was the reason for the abortions?

From what I understand in the video it's that there is no law for abortions in Canada, technically since 1988 it would be allowed to do late abortions, but there is an implicit rule that says we don't do it, our doctors are not even trained to do it or don't have the equipment, also the reasons you mentioned about safety, and there's no real demand for it (only about 35 per year) so the women who wish this are sent to U.S. Of course if we would do late abortions in Canada I guess more than 35 would happen. It's like for medications like Viagra, its popularity increases like a fashion over the years.

The reasons for late abortions, this question is asked in the video -- aparently there's many: the couple goes well but after a few months the man becomes agressive or violent, they break up and the woman doesn't want the baby anymore. Or a doctor told about a case of a pregnant woman, she had a good salary as a lawyer, everything was fine, but suddenly, after about 30 weeks, she panicks and doesn't want it anymore, so he sent her to U.S to get aborted. He said otherwise she would be thinking about commiting suicide.

... my opinion... who knows if she really would have killed herself, maybe not. Maybe the next week she would have changed her mind and would like to have the baby more than anything else in the world. But if she kills herself, yeah maybe abortion is better: one dead instead of two. On the other hand, I guess there's many women who perhaps feel regrets and remorse after abortion, and not only several days after, but in some cases many years after also. In other cases, it's a relief. Would be interesting to see statistics about the proportion of women who feel they made the right choice or took a bad decision.

 

You wanted to know where I got the information. Due to copyright, this news story is not available on the Internet, but there is a short summary/excerpt from it (in French though), it's at the bottom of this page.