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Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?


xphilx
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after 2 weeks that lump of cells is definitely a human in form, philosophers will argue about "humanness"... I heard someone on the radio refer to the fetus as a parasite, that got some listeners riled up!

That's bullshit.

 

This is what it looks after 6 weeks:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/6_weeks_pregnant.png

 

It's actually very similar to any other animal:

 

http://www.geocities.com/truedino/embryo1.jpg

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Ever since I invented the internet, I have never seen anybody change their opinion on abortion, one way or the other, as a result of reading what someone else has to say about it on a forum

 

silly you didn't invent the internet, this guy did:

 

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9731/theinternetoj7.jpg

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Ever since I invented the internet, I have never seen anybody change their opinion on abortion, one way or the other, as a result of reading what someone else has to say about it on a forum

 

silly you didn't invent the internet, this guy did:

 

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9731/theinternetoj7.jpg

No he didn't.

 

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

 

But he did have a huge influence in the Internet since he pushed it forward in his politics.

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That's a weird way of putting it. "Forced" to become a parent, they had sex and they should deal with it in a humane way. If they really aren't ready to be parents there is always adoption.

So you think the small lump of human cells which doesn't have a functioning brain or anything is more important than mental health of the woman who accidentally get pregnant? Getting a baby isn't a small thing. It is a huge physiological and mental effort. Would it be nice to throw up 9 months every morning because of pregnancy if you know you don't want the baby?

 

Do you also consider emergency contraception as "killing a baby" since you talk about "it" dying in abortion?

 

I don't think anyone is more or less important. I think that if you have sex you should be prepared for an accidental pregnancy and the child that comes with it. If you think women (notice the plural) throws up every morning for 9 months you def got it wrong but I guess you are overexaggerating to make a point. I strongly feel that you need to reevaluate calling the fetus a "lump of human cells", it implies that you have little to no respect or understanding for life and what you once were. I don't really see how ones brain function is a good measurement of someones right to live or die, do you?

Just remember that you all were a "lump of human cells which didn't have a functioning brain or anything" once too.

 

I consider it to be murder if the egg is fertilized and since I think most EC pills today have the function of killing even those cells I oppose the use of them.

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So, I just have to say this in response to a couple of posts that were made in this thread.

 

I know a lot of women who are just fine with their abortion experiences. They say it didn't cause any problem at all, and in fact was empowering. Not only do I know women personally who feel like this, but I have read and studied a lot of these accounts. They're just not heard much or popularized a lot because of the power of the anti-choicers to stigmatize this view both personally and publicly.

 

Also, not all abortion experiences are physically invasive or physically traumatizing for the woman either.

 

The cultural script that's present in the US especially (but other places too) that says abortion is something to save women from, that it's a horrible, nasty, terrible thing to be avoided because it tears up women and families physically and emotionally is around because

 

the savvy and powerful anti-choice movement is attempting to frame the issue that way and to a great extent has succeeded.

 

Of course some women and some families have had bad experiences around abortion no question. But that would happen less if the abortion issue wasn't framed politically the way the anti-choicers want it to be.

 

There was a time in human history where the aborting of a pregnancy was seen as a normal, every day action that women could take about their fertilities and futures. There are cultures that still approach the issue that way today.

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Ever since I invented the internet, I have never seen anybody change their opinion on abortion, one way or the other, as a result of reading what someone else has to say about it on a forum

 

silly you didn't invent the internet, this guy did:

 

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9731/theinternetoj7.jpg

No he didn't.

 

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

 

But he did have a huge influence in the Internet since he pushed it forward in his politics.

 

 

ok mr serious...I already know it's a false statement, just jokes...

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Pro-choice as I know enough about the developement of an embryo to say that it doesn't really harm them.

 

Whatever you consider the baby to be (a bunch of cells, a life etc) you sure harm "it" when you abort it since "it" dies.

Well is there a soul in this embryo or why is it so important? What about when they make test tube babies? They put in the tube more than just one egg and more than one usually gets inpregnated and is "it". Then some of them are thrown away and some implanted into their mother-to-be's body.

 

And I don't think that everyone should be given the right to be a parent and if someone is forced to it, it becomes even worse.

 

That's a weird way of putting it. "Forced" to become a parent, they had sex and they should deal with it in a humane way. If they really aren't ready to be parents there is always adoption.

Forced is a right word for it. Enviroment, culture, friends and family. Even if they won't be saying it out loud, they have an opinion and it comes out in some way.

 

I'll continue later on.

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Well is there a soul in this embryo or why is it so important? What about when they make test tube babies? They put in the tube more than just one egg and more than one usually gets inpregnated and is "it". Then some of them are thrown away and some implanted into their mother-to-be's body.

 

I'm not sure if I believe in souls but I believe that the embryo is or will become a beautiful person and no one should kill/stop that life. I really think it's stupid when pro-abortion people brings up weird examples to try and find exceptions to ones general opinion in this matter just so they can say "Hah I told you so" or whatever. If you read my response to your finnish friend you'll find your answer.

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Focusing on the fetus is really, in my mind, the wrong way to look it. It's a question of weather people have a moral and legal right to control their own bodies. I think we need to answer(and demand) a resounding yes to that question. Pregnancy, although a wonderful experience for many, is not without dangers. Pregnancy and childbirth put one's life at risk and permanently change the body. Abortion can be a safer option then carrying a child to term.

 

I can understand people's discomfort with abortion, but for anyone to advocate for the denial of women's rights to control their own body is unforgivable. Removal of legal family planning options does little, if anything, to reduce the number of abortions, and greatly increases the risks faced by women.

 

One thing I hope we can all agree on however is that unwanted pregnancy is are a bad thing. The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies. If one is truly troubled by abortion, work to educate and empower people around issues of sexual health and family planning. Don't advocate to remove their rights.

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Just the fact that we have so many abortions is a sad commentary on society today.

 

http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

ABORTIONS BY YEAR

 

Alan Guttmacher Institute Statistics Click here for details and documentation.

 

Center for Disease Control Statistics

Click here for details and documentation.

(Click here for PDF version)

 

 

AGI CDC

1973 744,600 615,831

 

1974 898,600 763,476

 

1975 1,034,200 854,853

 

1976 1,179,300 988,267

 

1977 1,316,700 1,079,430

 

1978 1,409,600 1,157,776

 

1979 1,497,700 1,251,921

 

1980 1,553,900 1,297,606

 

1981 1,577,300 1,300,760

 

1982 1,573,900 1,303,980

 

1983 1,575,000 1,268,987

 

1984 1,577,200 1,333,521

 

1985 1,588,600 1,328,570

 

1986 1,574,000 1,328,112

 

1987 1,559,100 1,353,671

 

1988 1,590,800 1,371,285

 

1989 1,566,900 1,396,658

 

1990 1,608,600 1,429,247

 

1991 1,556,500 1,388,937

 

1992 1,528,900 1,359,146

 

1993 1,495,000 1,330,414

 

1994 1,423,000 1,267,415

 

1995 1,359,400 1,210,883

 

1996 1,360,160 1,225,937

 

1997 1,335,000 1,186,039

 

1998 1,319,000 884,273*

 

1999 1,314,800 861,789*

 

2000 1,312,990 857,475 **

 

2001 1,291,000 853,485 **

 

2002 1,269,000 854,122 **

 

2003 1,250,000 848,163***

 

2004 1,222,100 839,226***

 

2005 1,206,200

 

2006-07 1,206,200 §

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I know a lot of women who are just fine with their abortion experiences. They say it didn't cause any problem at all, and in fact was empowering.

Having to make a difficult decision is one thing, but gloating about having an abortion is pretty sick and twisted.

 

Empowering over what? Society? "The man"?

Abortion gloater: Look, I'll get back at the man now. Look what I can do! *aborts baby* See, I'm really in control now.

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I think she means empowering in contrast to not being allowed to have the abortion. It makes them feel like they have the power to rectify that problem - in contrast to not being able to do anything about it or being expected to have the baby (being powerless). I don't think there is anyone who gloats about having an abortion, since having an abortion is admitting you made a mistake (or were raped), neither are things to gloat about

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I don't think anyone is more or less important. I think that if you have sex you should be prepared for an accidental pregnancy and the child that comes with it. If you think women (notice the plural) throws up every morning for 9 months you def got it wrong but I guess you are overexaggerating to make a point. I strongly feel that you need to reevaluate calling the fetus a "lump of human cells", it implies that you have little to no respect or understanding for life and what you once were. I don't really see how ones brain function is a good measurement of someones right to live or die, do you?

Just remember that you all were a "lump of human cells which didn't have a functioning brain or anything" once too.

 

I consider it to be murder if the egg is fertilized and since I think most EC pills today have the function of killing even those cells I oppose the use of them.

 

How is aborting a fertilized egg the same thing as murder? You agree, I presume, that it isn't "murder" when you kill and eat a broccoli plant? So what's the difference? Obviously it isn't that the fertilized egg (zygote) is alive and the broccoli isn't (in fact by many people's definition of "alive" for animals, it's the zygote that isn't alive). Is it just that it has human DNA? Well in that case, every time you have sex or masturbate, hundreds of millions of sperm are "murdered." Is it that, left to its own devices, it has good odds of in 40 weeks being healthily born and, therefore, by universal definition, a human being? But then, those several hundred million sperm in one ejaculation all have that same potential as soon as they find an egg to fertilize.

 

In short, I don't think the ethical standard that "human life begins at conception and abortion is therefore murder" stands up to logical scrutiny, because the definitions of "life" and "murder" contained in that view don't make sense to me. I think it only makes sense to view abortion from the same ethical standpoint that we view consuming animal products. All of us who are ethical vegans became so because we believe that an animal has a right to live out its natural life (from birth on) and be free from human-imposed suffering. And we believe in animal rights. NOT "plant rights," animal rights. We're not simply against the taking of a life, we're against the taking of animals' lives, because unlike plants, animals have a nervous system and can fear and resist their life being taken. We're also against causing animals emotional or physical pain or suffering of any kind. Plants cannot suffer, nor can they fear and resist losing their life, because they don't have a nervous system. So "murder" is not "taking a life," it's "taking the life of something with a nervous system capable of experiencing fear or pain." Since no nervous system whatsoever exists at conception, therefore it can't possibly be murder to terminate a pregnancy at conception.

 

There isn't much of a nervous system for at least a month after conception. There is considerable debate among scientists as to when the perception of pain becomes possible, but it isn't any time within the first few weeks. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain2.htm for some quotes. All of the researchers quoted there give the time frame as 12 weeks into pregnancy or later. Only after whatever that point is does it make sense to start calling abortion "murder." Not at conception, and not for several weeks thereafter, does it make any sense to label abortion this way.

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Focusing on the fetus is really, in my mind, the wrong way to look it. It's a question of weather people have a moral and legal right to control their own bodies. I think we need to answer(and demand) a resounding yes to that question. Pregnancy, although a wonderful experience for many, is not without dangers. Pregnancy and childbirth put one's life at risk and permanently change the body. Abortion can be a safer option then carrying a child to term.

 

I can understand people's discomfort with abortion, but for anyone to advocate for the denial of women's rights to control their own body is unforgivable. Removal of legal family planning options does little, if anything, to reduce the number of abortions, and greatly increases the risks faced by women.

But according to anti-abortion supporters, the woman isn't just making that choice for her own body, but also for the child. If you look at it as simply a right to control one's own body, you've already decided the fetus isn't a person. And while I tend to agree with you, I can see whether the anti-abortion folks are coming from.

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alright at 2 weeks I guess you make it up as you go along. It's been a while since I looked into this stuff. From what I see though after 10 weeks you get all the fingers and toes pretty visible. Anyone know about nervous system development by that time?

The magical interweb has the answers to your questions, sir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_development

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I don't think anyone is more or less important. I think that if you have sex you should be prepared for an accidental pregnancy and the child that comes with it. If you think women (notice the plural) throws up every morning for 9 months you def got it wrong but I guess you are overexaggerating to make a point. I strongly feel that you need to reevaluate calling the fetus a "lump of human cells", it implies that you have little to no respect or understanding for life and what you once were. I don't really see how ones brain function is a good measurement of someones right to live or die, do you?

Just remember that you all were a "lump of human cells which didn't have a functioning brain or anything" once too.

 

I consider it to be murder if the egg is fertilized and since I think most EC pills today have the function of killing even those cells I oppose the use of them.

 

How is aborting a fertilized egg the same thing as murder? You agree, I presume, that it isn't "murder" when you kill and eat a broccoli plant?

 

If you can't see the difference between aborting and stopping the growing of a fetus and eating broccoli I can't find any point in arguing with you.

Usually I do not discuss abortion because I do not base my opinions in the issue on fact but rather on feelings and to me it just feels wrong. I really think that if all you do is look at how the fetus looks the day when you abort it, and can't see beyond that, you are missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say.

 

I know a lot of women who are just fine with their abortion experiences. They say it didn't cause any problem at all, and in fact was empowering.

Having to make a difficult decision is one thing, but gloating about having an abortion is pretty sick and twisted.

 

Empowering over what? Society? "The man"?

Abortion gloater: Look, I'll get back at the man now. Look what I can do! *aborts baby* See, I'm really in control now.

 

I have to agree with Josh here. When I first read your post I was so ed I didn't even want to comment on it. I know that empowering feeling I think. It's probably the same feeling I get when I beat the shit out of someone in a fight and that is the part I hate most about myself really.

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I know a lot of women who are just fine with their abortion experiences. They say it didn't cause any problem at all, and in fact was empowering.

Having to make a difficult decision is one thing, but gloating about having an abortion is pretty sick and twisted.

 

Empowering over what? Society? "The man"?

Abortion gloater: Look, I'll get back at the man now. Look what I can do! *aborts baby* See, I'm really in control now.

 

There is a very big difference between feeling empowered by your decision & actions, and gloating. Come on.

 

 

I have to agree with Josh here. When I first read your post I was so ed I didn't even want to comment on it. I know that empowering feeling I think. It's probably the same feeling I get when I beat the shit out of someone in a fight and that is the part I hate most about myself really.

Heh, there's no way you could, actually, unless you have actually been pregnant yourself in this climate of other people acting like it's their right to force women to have to carry a pregnancy to term; in this climate where overall, women are still the bottom liners for taking care of kids physically, emotionally, socially, and financially and many dads don't take responsibility for their kids; in this climate of a scrupulously documented feminzation of poverty; in this climate where yeah birth control does fail... in this climate where everyone does not agree with everyone else's view of when life begins yet some people think they can force their views down other peoples' throats.

 

I'm glad you guys are talking about this. I think regarding most other issues, statements wouldn't be made that being empowered and gloating are the same thing, or feels like punching someone in the stomach. This topic just makes people say goofy things.

 

I probably shouldn't have bothered posted but oh well there it is if you care to understand what I said.

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I think it's interesting that the vast majority of the people debating the issue are men. The reality is that men cannot have babies and men are the ruling class, you therefore come at the issue from a different perspective

 

WobbyLifter is completely on point. The question should be about a person's self-determination with respect to her body, not a question of how you "feel" about abortion.

 

Vivalasvegans, your comments on the realities of women as primary caregivers is spot on, imo. It is important to make that clear. Birthing a baby and having a child are only theoretically seperate; women are statistically responsible for both, and as such, the two cannot be separated.

 

I would retort, the anti-abortion argument that a woman who has an abortion is making a decision "for the child" doesn't follow because to render abortion inaccessible is to make that choice for women.

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