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Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?


xphilx
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I'm glad you guys are talking about this. I think regarding most other issues, statements wouldn't be made that being empowered and gloating are the same thing, or feels like punching someone in the stomach. This topic just makes people say goofy things.

But most other issues don't involve people feeling empowered by something that other people consider murder. Wouldn't you feel ed if someone said they felt empowered by strangling a puppy to death? That's the angle from which some people view this. Surely you see that even if you convince them that the action itself isn't reprehensible, they don't understand how you can feel anything positive about it.

 

I probably shouldn't have bothered posted but oh well there it is if you care to understand what I said.

Oh c'mon, don't be passive-aggressively snarky.

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I would retort, the anti-abortion argument that a woman who has an abortion is making a decision "for the child" doesn't follow because to render abortion inaccessible is to make that choice for women.

But if you're talking to someone who brought this up in the first place, your point is useless. They're saying the choice is being made for the child. You're saying it's being made for the woman. Either way, the decision is being forced on somebody, and I doubt you're going to convince an anti-abortionist to choose the resolution that they consider murder.

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I am pro-choice.

 

I absolutely wish that people were careful enough to avoid the majority of unwanted pregnancies. However, even with great care, and unwanted pregnancy is a possibility.

 

Basically, I trust that most people know whether they are ready or in a position to be parents. And if someone isn't ready, then they shouldn't be one. I don't think that life with a parent who never wanted you and can't care for you is actually preferable to never having been born.

 

And yeah, there are people who are so irresponsible and selfish that they don't really give any thought to parenthood and actually do not know that they aren't ready or able to be parents. But whether or not they know it, they aren't ready either, and shouldn't be raising kids.

 

I am sure that many people are thinking about adoption at this point. But that is is not a true alternative. There are already unwanted kids who will never be adopted and will spend their entire lives in foster care or group homes. Now, take the numbers of abortions there are each year and imagine if all of those were actually kids who were born and put up for adoption. Would they really all have loving homes or would the foster care system instead be overburdened and even more broken than it is? How many of the people who suggest putting a baby up for adoption instead of having an abortion actually take steps to making this a viable alternative by adopting kids themselves?

 

People who have a pro-life (or anti-choice) bent seem to see the ideal as all conceptions being carried through to birth. I see the ideal as all kids who are born being wanted, loved, and cared for. I would love for this ideal world to exist due to everyone being responsible and careful, and for unplanned pregnancies to be the result only of the unavoidable small number of birth control failures. But that's not the current state of the world, and as it is I think that abortion is necessary to avoid kids being born with no one to want, love, and care for them, which I see as more important than just being plain old born.

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I think regarding most other issues, statements wouldn't be made that being empowered and gloating are the same thing, or feels like punching someone in the stomach. This topic just makes people say goofy things.

It's mostly due to the fact that it is sick to feel empowered by killing something that makes me say "goofy" things. It sounds just like a hunter describing when he kills a deer.

 

I think it's interesting that the vast majority of the people debating the issue are men. The reality is that men cannot have babies and men are the ruling class, you therefore come at the issue from a different perspective

 

I come from the exact same position as my girlfriend who is (guess what) a girl. It's about what view you have on life in general and not what gender you belong to.

 

 

Even though it might be good to discuss a womans right to her own body I think the pro-abortion people seem to (unmistakenly) forget that if she's pregnant there are two bodies that (should) have rights.

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men cannot have babies and men are the ruling class

If that baby is born, it will be as much mine as hers. I will be responable for supporting that baby until 18.

Why are men alway made out to be emotionless dolts, and the only person feelings who count are the mothers?

 

This.

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I consider it to be murder if the egg is fertilized and since I think most EC pills today have the function of killing even those cells I oppose the use of them.

How is aborting a fertilized egg the same thing as murder? You agree, I presume, that it isn't "murder" when you kill and eat a broccoli plant?

 

If you can't see the difference between aborting and stopping the growing of a fetus and eating broccoli I can't find any point in arguing with you. Usually I do not discuss abortion because I do not base my opinions in the issue on fact but rather on feelings and to me it just feels wrong. I really think that if all you do is look at how the fetus looks the day when you abort it, and can't see beyond that, you are missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say.

 

If you think what I said had anything at all to do with judging based on how a fetus looks, you didn't really read it. What I said had to do with the lack of development of the nervous system of newly-fertilized eggs (i.e., zygotes or embryos), which makes it impossible for them to experience suffering.

 

I don't really know what you're trying to say when you say that you base your opinions about abortion on feelings rather than facts. Where do the feelings come from? I feel very strongly about animal rights, and so do you, but my feelings (and I would guess yours as well) come from both empathy with animals and a logical understanding that they're capable of experiencing suffering just like humans can. But no animal, including humans, has a conscious mind or anything even close to it at conception. But by, say, 20 weeks into the pregnancy, that has changed. So my feelings about that situation are different, because the situation is different.

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[...]

 

WobbyLifter is completely on point. The question should be about a person's self-determination with respect to her body, not a question of how you "feel" about abortion.

 

Right on. When pressed, abortion rights opponents (who, yeah, sometimes are women, but are usually men) can't give a logically coherent rationale for their position, and it winds up that their "feelings" are supposed to be more important than women's rights.

 

Still, I think we have to challenge abortion rights opponents' definition of "murder" and vagueness about what they mean by "life." If we don't challenge the view that abortion is murder, we look callous when we say, from the perspective of abortion rights opponents, that a woman's right to control her own body trumps another organism's right not to be murdered. I don't believe, and I think most pro-choice people don't believe, that aborting an early-term pregnancy is anywhere near the same thing as murdering a human or any other living, conscious animal.

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men cannot have babies and men are the ruling class

If that baby is born, it will be as much mine as hers. I will be responable for supporting that baby until 18.

Why are men alway made out to be emotionless dolts, and the only person feelings who count are the mothers?

 

This.

 

I don't really know what you're trying to say when you say that you base your opinions about abortion on feelings rather than facts. Where do the feelings come from?

 

I see the connection between the first cell of the baby and a human and I feel that killing either one is wrong. The feelings come from my gut, heart or/and brain I guess, I never traced them back to their original source.

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Usually I do not discuss abortion because I do not base my opinions in the issue on fact but rather on feelings and to me it just feels wrong.

 

So, other people are supposed to agree with you that abortion of an early-term pregnancy is essentially the same thing as murdering a (born) human or other animal, just because you "feel" that way? If you can't give a rationale for being against all abortions (and considering them equivalent to murder) that's based on logic and evidence and not just on your feelings, then who are you to say that your feeling that abortion is wrong trumps a woman's right to control what happens with her own body?

 

You implied in the part of your message I didn't quote that it was obvious that there was a meaningful difference between a human embryo and a stalk of broccoli that pertained to why it was okay to kill broccoli but not to have an abortion. But you didn't say what that difference was. Since as I pointed out it can't be a difference in nervous systems since neither has one, what's left is that one has the potential to grow into a sentient human being and the other doesn't. But, again, sperm and egg cells also have that capacity (all they need is the other 23 chromosomes), and you haven't expressed opposition to either sex where contraception is used or masturbation, both of which waste more potential human lives than sex without contraception.

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I don't really know what you're trying to say when you say that you base your opinions about abortion on feelings rather than facts. Where do the feelings come from?

 

I see the connection between the first cell of the baby and a human and I feel that killing either one is wrong. The feelings come from my gut, heart or/and brain I guess, I never traced them back to their original source.

 

So, why isn't killing sperm cells wrong?

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Pro-choice. Not only refering to abortion but also to assisted suicide.

People have to understand that there are situations in which it is better not to live. Some people - also in this forum - still think that humans are a superior race, which has to live for any price and as long as possible. Bullshit!

Born with a very severe depression (yes born, not a developped depression) I may say about myself that after struggling with myself for 37 years I wouldn't blame my parents if they had choosen for abortion.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/import_fighter/kitten_die.jpg

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I guess that xjohanx and others would be happy, if abortion was banned and women started to do DIY-abortions with iron wire hangers etc. Or if the rate of starved or abused children would rise as those, who would have chosen abortion, didn't get it.

 

If some dude gets me pregnant and I don't want it, I'm more than happy to give the embryo to him so that he can carry it, give birth to it and raise it as his own. If that's what he wants.

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I can see the argument for a fetus not being alive or having personhood however what is the criteria one should use? I think to people in comas for example as they have a lot in common with a fetus in many stages, except that the fetus has more neural activity at about 3 months, but that's because a brain is developing. Despite all that everyone has said I don't think this issue is going to get solved here. I mean scientists, ethicists, and philosophers, have not been able to come up with a unified answer. But maybe the professionals can be ignored and you can look for indications of how the population at large views abortion. For this I take a cue from PETA and look at pop culture such as movies. These are the people who reflect opinion on the whole. They may drive it, but either way there is a reciprocal relationship. I can't think of a popular movie that glorifies abortion, so no worries there, and a ban on something else in the U.S. isn't coming soon...wow. I say this because I think far too many things in the U.S. are banned or heavily regulated which is mostly just banning-light.

 

I would like to hear from people about this. I may not have the best way to phrase the question yet, but i'm curious about something. Let's assume that our personal values influence our circle of friends, not so much the people we know since we can meet people at work, and can't assume they have similar values, but people you choose to have in your personal sphere of influence. How well do their views of abortion correlate with yours? In my case i'm farther over on the pro life spectrum, it's not complete, i've got some reservations, but anyhow none of my friends have had abortions, and several of them have children, actually it's probably about half. The other half are in college and some i've spoken to about kids just think it's not a good time for that so they do what they can to avoid childbirth which is sofar contraception. I am curious about this since I hear many arguments from defenders of a "right" to abortion that they have friends or know people who had abortions and it didn't affect them. I think I may look into trauma associated with abortions, as I've only heard anecdotal evidence from all over up to this point in my life.

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Usually I do not discuss abortion because I do not base my opinions in the issue on fact but rather on feelings and to me it just feels wrong.

 

So, other people are supposed to agree with you that abortion of an early-term pregnancy is essentially the same thing as murdering a (born) human or other animal, just because you "feel" that way? If you can't give a rationale for being against all abortions (and considering them equivalent to murder) that's based on logic and evidence and not just on your feelings, then who are you to say that your feeling that abortion is wrong trumps a woman's right to control what happens with her own body?

 

Hey dude, science isn't the answer to everything. You should try to get in touch with your emotions every once in a while.

It's pretty simple to me, a fetus will become a baby if you let nature take its course and since I think that killing born babies are wrong I feel the same about killing them earlier. I can try to make some math out of it allthough you have to excuse me since I hate math and haven't touched it since I quit high school.

Killing a baby = Murder

Fetus => Baby

Killing a fetus = Killing a baby

 

 

I guess that xjohanx and others would be happy, if abortion was banned and women started to do DIY-abortions with iron wire hangers etc. Or if the rate of starved or abused children would rise as those, who would have chosen abortion, didn't get it.

 

What the fuck is wrong with you? Where have I even implied that I would like such things to happen?

 

I'm mostly pro-life but I don't really oppose abortion rights I just think it's wrong. It's for the woman/family and doctor to decide what's best in each situation. My main opinion is that abortion sucks really bad both for the baby, the mother and the father.

 

Learn how to read properly or shut up.

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I wouldn't blame my parents if they had choosen for abortion.

Hey man,

 

I don't know you, but I hope you were just down and out when you wrote this. I hope you don't feel like that on a regular basis.

 

Life is a gift! Every day is Christmas! (well, sans Jesus)

 

Josh

 

Well, this is a regular day and a regular feeling. Life is NOT a gift. I do not belive that. And there is no such thing as Jesus or God. If you look around you and see all the shit going on in the world I really cannot understand how people can believe such crap (no offense to you).

People do not want to see that there are situations in which you feel pro-death and not pro-life.

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I guess that xjohanx and others would be happy, if abortion was banned and women started to do DIY-abortions with iron wire hangers etc. Or if the rate of starved or abused children would rise as those, who would have chosen abortion, didn't get it.

 

If some dude gets me pregnant and I don't want it, I'm more than happy to give the embryo to him so that he can carry it, give birth to it and raise it as his own. If that's what he wants.

 

This made me cringe.

 

Mostly I just want to point out that no one 'gets' you pregnant. It takes two to tango so an unwanted pregnancy is equally the fault of each partner.

 

 

Abortion is impossible to debate cleanly. We are all right and we are all wrong, and that's the problem.

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What the fuck is wrong with you? Where have I even implied that I would like such things to happen?

(...)

Learn how to read properly or shut up.

Just calm down, relax, and explain your opinion quietly without being vulgar, even if you explain it for the second time or if you feel you have been misunderstood.

 

"When anger rises, think of the consequences."

Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)

Mostly I just want to point out that no one 'gets' you pregnant. It takes two to tango so an unwanted pregnancy is equally the fault of each partner.
Well, if it was that simple. But in real world, people do mistakes. Error is human. So a man can do a big mistake by raping a woman, are you saying it,s the fault of the woman too ? so abortion can help, eventhough it won't erase this tragedy. Even when the two persons are consenting, sometimes they're in love, become irrational for a moment, don't protect, and then things change, they become more rational again, don't get along well anymore, the woman don't have the money to raise a kid by herself, etc. Especially when it's kids, and with absent sex education in schools or parents who don't care, how can you do everything perfectly right, you don't always think about all the consequences. Of course abortion is not the best choice, but unfortunately in today's society, sometimes it's the only choice, until things change on how to run the state and in the mentality of people.
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What the fuck is wrong with you? Where have I even implied that I would like such things to happen?

(...)

Learn how to read properly or shut up.

Just calm down, relax, and explain your opinion quietly without being vulgar, even if you explain it for the second time or if you feel you have been misunderstood.

 

"When anger rises, think of the consequences."

Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)

 

Hey it's cute that you're trying to defend you girlfriend but honestly she fucked up. I've explained my opinion maybe 5 times in this thread and have never even said that I wanted abortion rights to be taken away, in fact I said the opposite. Then she "guesses" that I would be happy if more children starved and women started doing dangerous surgeries with wire hangers which often cause death. To even think something like that would make anyone happy is sick. How would you feel if someone said that you'd get joy from seing people suffer and die. And don't tell me to calm down, tell your girl she should grow up.

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