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there is another topic touching on bee pollen but i figure i start a thread just on bee pollen

 

i just saw this video of Tonya Kay (which i assume everyone here knows) saying she takes bee pollen with her on her travels. "it's a flower product not a bee product". is there any reason a vegan could accept that and consume bee pollen like we do apples? (because we need bees to pollinate apples, so technically apples aren't vegan either)

 

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Isn't bee pollen gathered by a scraping device at the door to the hive, which scrapes it off their legs, and sometimes pulls their legs off in the process? Maybe vegans who want flower pollen should think about sucking it out of the flowers themselves?

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Well, one could argue that since bees are so hopelessly dependent on unthinking reflexes, they're essentially organic machines, much like plants.

 

And ethics aside, unlike meat and dairy products, the nutritional value of honey is just too good to ignore.

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Isn't bee pollen gathered by a scraping device at the door to the hive, which scrapes it off their legs, and sometimes pulls their legs off in the process? Maybe vegans who want flower pollen should think about sucking it out of the flowers themselves?

I had never heard this. That is really interesting. What I had always assumed was that it was simply an animal by-product, i.e. not vegan.

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Not vegan to me if it comes from bees directly if it is from a flower directly then I would consider it vegan. Just depends on who is providing the pollen. If you have to affect bees to get it directly then yeah I would say it is not vegan. I run into bee byproducts too much when I go to raw meetups. Kinda blows me away how many people claim veganism and still eat honey. Oh and by far I doubt bees are just stimulus flying around hoping to not accommodate the hive.

Anyway If it is up to me to decide that obvious is honey ... not vegan (bee spit). Bee pollen unless I really know the source I just don't bother. I do get the idea that because of bees we get so called products that are created called fruit because of bees. So I get what was compared but taking honey from a hive is very much different than a bee being on a plant and then because the bee was there a fruit grows from a result of pollination.

 

So vegans don't use animals to for food or eat the animal. I think also we try to stick to a strict rule as vegans saying vegans are this or they are that. You basically make the choice. Is there any harm by your choice? and how you directly impact a living creature? Make the better choice.

 

Can we live in the woods and not displace any living creature why no! just walking you would kill anything small that you did not see. Not living would be the most vegan but that is just dumb. Such as the greenest individuals are eco people who never have kids.There kids will leave some carbon footprint. In society and the way life is we do the best we can. Every day there will be situations where you are harming some living thing. Make a choice and make with a concious view. Do what you can to respect all living beings.

 

 

oh tanya says she eats honey

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Well, one could argue that since bees are so hopelessly dependent on unthinking reflexes, they're essentially organic machines, much like plants.

 

And ethics aside, unlike meat and dairy products, the nutritional value of honey is just too good to ignore.

 

I think you meant instinct. And for me, that makes them more like animals than plants, not the other way around.

 

Honey has health benefits, but so does agave nectar. Agave nectar has more actually, and it is vegan. There are many benefits of non-vegan foods, but with those come negative health properties and of course the abuse or misuse of an animal to sustain us. Honey isn't vegan, no matter which way you slice it. Think what you like, I'll always advocate that, but I strongly believe it isn't vegan, and the fact that this is something we all discuss from time to time confuses me.

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What is bee pollen? I don't know what it is. Are we talking about Bee bread? Again I don't know what that is, but showed up when I tried to search for bee pollen. How is it harvested? Should be pretty obvious one way or the other if it's ethical.

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  • 2 months later...

Bee pollen( also known as bee bread) is a source of food for honey bees and their larvae=Not vegan. Case closed.

 

Vegetarians who eat bee pollen are depriving bees of a food source collected over many hours by worker bees.

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I've been debating on whether to post on this (especially after endcruelty was slammed) but I personally do not feel that reputable beekeeping is a bad thing. There are large operations out there which don't perhaps have much compassion for the bee but I have been priveleged to have met a few local beekeepers including one who is world renowned in the field.

 

These people really do care for the bees. They don't even consider them their property. As the "bee man" (our nick name for him) says: "you can't force the bees to live their" they WILL relocate if conditions are adverse.

over 70% of produced honey is unused by the colony. He admits that there are some bees injured or killed in the harvest of honey. The hive is an incredibly efficient operation. Sometimes ruthlessly efficient. Weaker drones are routinely eliminated from the hive. Quite fascinating actually.

Regardless of your views on whether honey or bee pollen is vegan or not, I can not vilify a reputable beekeeper for what he or she does.

I just read about beekeepers in Pittsburgh who are rescuing hives in urban centres so they are not exterminated and I know from talking with these people that they truly care for these insects.

 

I guess I've just read so much about the "evils" of honey and beekeeping that I just had to share a bit of the experiences I have encountered with these beekeepers.

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The problem is not how nice you treat the bees or respect them. The vegan view is not using animals as a commodity or things they make and doing your best to avoid using animals for whatever on a day to day basis. It is practicing compassion but as well as respect to leave them alone in their own environment in which we do not have to take things they do. Don't bees spend their life working hard. Just so some individual can come and take their days hard work. Eggs seem perfectly normal too under the fact that you can treat the chicken nicely nicely. I really feel that people need to feel ok about taking things that they like. That is why they made humane meat and pasture raised etc... I had a problem still when my friend said he loves wool and there for he could not be vegan because that is such a strong label and that if the sheep is from a artisan who treats the sheep like royalty then it should be ok right. The problem is that happy animals are far and few between when it comes to humans using their byproducts or them as food humans have no limits. Where some respect others will not... avoiding them all together is a much better choice. Let animals live free. This is why have such a problem also with people in the raw food movement and being labeled a raw food enthusiast because they care more about enhancing their own body rather than respecting animals and other living creatures. I love raw food but this part I think is just not something I agree with. I would would be vegan over raw if I had one choice...

 

(I am speaking in a sincere tone.)

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To me, this debate seems rather silly (no offence to anyone). Do you REALLY need honey/bee pollen to survive and be in perfect health? Of course not. Then why waste your valuable time and brain cells trying to come up with a compelling excuse to continue exploiting the damn bees? I mean, we're not talking about whether broccoli or tofu is ethical - it's just honey/bee pollen, for chirssakes. Granted, bees are insects, which means they probably don't feel pain, etc., but since it's ridiculously easy to not consume their products and just be on the safe side - why all the fuss?

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To me, this debate seems rather silly (no offence to anyone). Do you REALLY need honey/bee pollen to survive and be in perfect health? Of course not. Then why waste your valuable time and brain cells trying to come up with a compelling excuse to continue exploiting the damn bees? I mean, we're not talking about whether broccoli or tofu is ethical - it's just honey/bee pollen, for chirssakes. Granted, bees are insects, which means they probably don't feel pain, etc., but since it's ridiculously easy to not consume their products and just be on the safe side - why all the fuss?

Actually, they probably do feel pain. They have more than sufficient nervous systems and respond negatively to what we would consider "painful" stimuli. They aren't self-aware and probably aren't even minimally conscious, so we don't know whether these reactions are just self-preservation instincts or indications of actual discomfort, but I don't see a reason to take that chance. I mean, really, are bees that much less intelligent than chickens?

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The problem is not how nice you treat the bees or respect them. The vegan view is not using animals as a commodity or things they make and doing your best to avoid using animals for whatever on a day to day basis. It is practicing compassion but as well as respect to leave them alone in their own environment in which we do not have to take things they do. Don't bees spend their life working hard. Just so some individual can come and take their days hard work. Eggs seem perfectly normal too under the fact that you can treat the chicken nicely nicely. I really feel that people need to feel ok about taking things that they like. That is why they made humane meat and pasture raised etc... I had a problem still when my friend said he loves wool and there for he could not be vegan because that is such a strong label and that if the sheep is from a artisan who treats the sheep like royalty then it should be ok right. The problem is that happy animals are far and few between when it comes to humans using their byproducts or them as food humans have no limits. Where some respect others will not... avoiding them all together is a much better choice.

+1

I could not agree more with "do not use animals as a commodity." It's why "humane" farming is still unacceptable. As long as an animal product is salable, animals will be abused somewhere to produce it. Even the "artisan" who treats his sheep like royalty is likely shearing them out-of-season.

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To me, this debate seems rather silly (no offence to anyone). Do you REALLY need honey/bee pollen to survive and be in perfect health? Of course not. Then why waste your valuable time and brain cells trying to come up with a compelling excuse to continue exploiting the damn bees? I mean, we're not talking about whether broccoli or tofu is ethical - it's just honey/bee pollen, for chirssakes. Granted, bees are insects, which means they probably don't feel pain, etc., but since it's ridiculously easy to not consume their products and just be on the safe side - why all the fuss?

Actually, they probably do feel pain. They have more than sufficient nervous systems and respond negatively to what we would consider "painful" stimuli. They aren't self-aware and probably aren't even minimally conscious, so we don't know whether these reactions are just self-preservation instincts or indications of actual discomfort, but I don't see a reason to take that chance. I mean, really, are bees that much less intelligent than chickens?

 

That just strenghtens the case for not consuming bee pollen.

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I think Rainra very eloquently got her point across. I especially like the analogy of free range chickens and egg harvesting.

However, the exploitation of bees is a different argument.

I don't think anyone could ever solve the argument. It comes down to philosophy and semantics.

 

I don't consume honey but I don't feel as strongly against honey as I do about milk

 

What is the argument concerning the raw diet?

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I think Rainra very eloquently got her point across. I especially like the analogy of free range chickens and egg harvesting.

However, the exploitation of bees is a different argument.

I don't think anyone could ever solve the argument. It comes down to philosophy and semantics.

It's pretty simple. Do you care enough about bees being hurt to go without bee pollen or don't you? It's a personal choice, but not a complicated one.

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I guess as much as I care about insects being hurt in the harvesting of the fruit and veggies I eat???

I just don't see how it is much different

I don't think it is truly as simple as people make it out to be.

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